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USA army service, few questions

Nuff_Said ๐Ÿšซ

I'm trying to make background of few side-characters (father, grandfather and grand-grandfather of MC).
GGF is born around 1895 - to make him participate in WW1, and Russian Revolution. After the Revolution he flees Soviet Union to US.
GF is born 1924,
Father is 37, born 1948.
GGF and GF took part in all possible wars they could (by age), F served too, but is viewed as "total disgrace" or a man.
GGF: infantry, WW1- sergeant, White Army (Revolution and Civil War)-Praporshchik(=warrant officer). engineer corps/mechanic.
Can he propably serve in WW2 in the US army?
GF: WW2, any infantry-like service. Enlisted as private, around 1942-43. What can his service look from there?
F: what kind of service he might have to make his father/grandfather consider him a disgrace (no specific actions, only career). Or should I just make him a draft-dodger? How would it look like?
I can shift birth dates by a year or two.
The purpose for GGF and GF is to give some nuances to what MC (14, born 1971) might receive as home upbringing and education, considering MC spends summers and other vacations on GF farm and is in very good relationships with both.

Mushroom ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Nuff_Said

This is a complex one, especially the start.

For the GGF, realize the "Russian Revolution" was over 6 years long (officially), with many placing it more at around a decade. Many factions, and sides changing all the time. White Russians, Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, Anarchists, and ultimately the Communists taking over and eliminating most others (including the Bolsheviks - they were not really the winners).

So when that soldier returned home, where, why, who did they support? Did they flee because the almost decade of war and anarchy was more than they wanted, or because the side they favored (and maybe supported) was destroyed?

GGF service is simple, forget engineer and mechanic, make him Infantry, and an Unter-offizier. There were no real "mechanics" or "engineers" in the Russian Army, you were Infantry, Cavalry, or Artillery.

Oh, and he would have to decide to bail out very early. The White Army was quickly forced to retreat East, into Siberia. That is why many ended up in the fringes of Japanese occupied regions on China and throughout the Far East. The White Army was pretty much out of Europe by the end of 1918. Otherwise they would have not been able to easily emigrate to the US, being stuck in a place like Shanghai as a "stateless person". Their old country no longer existing, they new one not recognizing them. Instead, consider having them as coming from a border region, like say the Ukraine, and after some time in a German POW camp deciding upon release to remain in Germany or Poland, then emigrating.

Service for such in a WWII Army, not likely. Unless he had gained some particularly valuable skills, like medical or logistics. Say if he had run a freight company. Most of those recalled for WWII were really specialists and experts in something the war effort really needed.

For the GF, that all depends on what he did. In the Army, that would have seen him thrown into Normandy in 1944, then fighting his way across Europe. Unless he was sent to the Pacific, where he would have been in battles like Guadalcanal and Okinawa.

The father, would be reaching draft age at around 1966. Now contrary to popular belief, not many draftees served in Vietnam. If you were drafted, you served for 2 years. And were normally kept in the US, or sent to Europe as part of the still ongoing occupation duty. Trained as say a mechanic, and working on tanks for a year in Germany before going home.

But "draft dodger"? Largely a joke. Just deciding to go to college in that era made you exempt from being drafted until you graduated. So graduates school in 1965, stays in college until 1970, by then simply be married and have a kid. That classified you to where being drafted was almost impossible as there were plenty of single younger men they could grab.

You need to decide a bit more how you want to approach this, then I could give some better ideas of how to pull it off. But realize, many of the terms you are trying to use at turn of the century times are not quite what you think.

"Engineers" at that time were working on things like canals and planning rail lines. That made them useful in laying out things like trench lines, drainage, and laying roads and rails for logistics. They are not "engineers" as most would think of them today. And mechanized equipment was so new, "mechanics" were nothing like what is seen either. A train engineer drafted, then spent their time running trains during the war.

By WWII, especially in the US Army, there it largely depends on the theater. Most went to Europe, some went to the Pacific. If Infantry, just watch "Band of Brothers", and forget the air drops.

For the father, absolutely no idea. He would not fit the "draft dodging hippie" segment, that was more 1968 and after, when the antagonism against "The War" was reaching it's peak. And even then, the issue was not that they were thought of as "cowards", but simply "not patriotic". That was a counter-culture thing, refusal to follow authority more than anything else.

For the MC, once again, almost impossible to tell as there are so many questions open. But by the time he is "aware" of the real world, it would be 1978 or so, the era of Disco. Carter was President, all "Draft Dodgers" were given an amnesty, and the Vietnam War was all over. The father would more likely see issues with classmates that did go and fight than from his father and grandfather.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Mushroom

Most of those recalled for WWII were really specialists and experts in something the war effort really needed.

For a mandatory recall, yes. But recall is out anyway since the prior service is not US Army.

The question is, assuming he is a US citizen and physically fit at the start of WWII, would they have turned him down if he walk up and volunteered? I think not.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Nuff_Said

Can he propably serve in WW2 in the US army?

Assuming he was a US citizen at that point and physically fit, I don't see why not. I rather doubt the Army would have turned down a volunteer that was fit in that era.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

Assuming he was a US citizen at that point and physically fit, I don't see why not. I rather doubt the Army would have turned down a volunteer that was fit in that era.

At 45 at the time of the war starting?

No, to old. Only a few were allowed in by that time, normally those that had a critical skill that was useful back home. Medical, logistics, and the like. Even a pilot would have been likely accepted, but kept in the US as an instructor at most, or working on one of the advisory boards approving designs. He would have had to have come to the US and then spent the entire time after emigrating being in the Army to do that. Hard to do in the small army during the Depression.

And he would have been in demand for the wartime build-up. Fighting wars is a "young man game", and even if accepted, would have not been "fighting". Little more than a glorified clerk, back in the US helping move around the vast amounts of supplies needed, a "propaganda creator in uniform" like John Huston, or the like.

But even Citizenship was not required, just being a US Resident was enough. But somebody had to have a skill badly needed to actually be accepted in the military at that age, and not just offered a War Department job as a civilian.

Nuff_Said ๐Ÿšซ

@Nuff_Said

I was thinking of civil war ending for him with the evacuation in Crimea in 1920 (November 13-16).
Imperial Army had engineer corps. And I clearly understand the difference with modern. But coming from engineer corps explains technical skills. This also gives a reason for promotions and being among the evacuated and how he could earn for living later.
Won't US army enlist a Russian speaking technical specialist at least for language skills? He could either be in troops moving Land-Lease deliveries (like in Iran), or somewhere helping crack technical data written in Cyrillic.
GF: any chance for post WW2 service? Again, he's Russian speaking, even if not native. As a technical specialist he could also serve longer.
I'm thinking of making both technical specialists/mechanics because it gives reasons to survive the wars, and settle for life better after. I don't need to make them into some "Rambo's", just two grumpy (only to keep the trademark) old farts (still full of youth, just not in the knees), who live on a farm/in rural town and have some stories to tell and can teach the MC, from a modern big city, some "unorthodox" skills.
If I understand correctly, they both will be very fine ending their careers in NCO ranks.
I'm trying to figure out how to set father's life, so that he makes grandfathers consider him a "failure of a man". Two years of sharpening pencils and becoming a lawyer?

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom ๐Ÿšซ

@Nuff_Said

Won't US army enlist a Russian speaking technical specialist at least for language skills? He could either be in troops moving Land-Lease deliveries (like in Iran), or somewhere helping crack technical data written in Cyrillic.

Lend-Lease shipping was handled by civilians. The Merchant Marines, with the allied nation sending some specialist to the US for training. Who would then return home and train others. And the same way, any manuals would have been written in the Soviet Union by their own English speaking personnel who could translate them into what they were familiar with.

But literacy was still not common, typically in the 20% range. And many from rural areas it was closer to 10%. That is one reason why Soviet equipment has always been rather simple to maintain and operate.

GF: any chance for post WW2 service? Again, he's Russian speaking, even if not native. As a technical specialist he could also serve longer.
I'm thinking of making both technical specialists/mechanics because it gives reasons to survive the wars, and settle for life better after. I don't need to make them into some "Rambo's", just two grumpy (only to keep the trademark) old farts (still full of youth, just not in the knees), who live on a farm/in rural town and have some stories to tell and can teach the MC, from a modern big city, some "unorthodox" skills.

Once again, staying in would be tricky, and most likely have resulted in the loss of several ranks. A Technical Sergeant moved back down to a Corporal and the like. And most of the positions would be simply as "Occupation Duty". Patrolling the "American Zone" in Austria or Hesse. That was more "police work" than anything else, and there was not much call yet for anything other than MPs.

There really was no much need of "technical specialists", unless they were a lawyer for the various trials going on, or a cop in occupation duties. The Soviets were our allies, and they had plenty of English speakers so they could communicate with both the US and English with a single language.

And the "Cold War" had not started yet, that started in late 1947, and by the middle of 1946 the wartime army had already been discharged. And he may "speak Russian", but remember that languages change. He would have learned from his father, who would have used words and phrases that would have been outdated.

Imagine if a child born in another country had learned English from his father, who had left the US in 1972. He would return saying things like "far out", "groovy", and "outta sight!", and it lacking all the terms and slang that had developed since that time. Anybody would have known almost instantly that they did not fit in.

If I understand correctly, they both will be very fine ending their careers in NCO ranks.
I'm trying to figure out how to set father's life, so that he makes grandfathers consider him a "failure of a man". Two years of sharpening pencils and becoming a lawyer?

I have absolutely no idea, as to me that makes little sense to be honest. My father was the only male of his family to not join the military, and his father never treated him any differently. And although I did join the service and made it a career, none of my cousins (all born to veteran fathers) joined.

Heck, just look at Arthur MacArthur IV. The son and grandson of Generals and Medal of Honor winners, but he never joined the service and largely lived a quiet and anonymous life. And as far as I know there was never any issues about that with his father.

And it must be remembered, until after WWII most career NCOs were bachelors. Officers were free to get married and have kids, most enlisted were single. And a large "peacetime army" did not start to evolve until the mid-1050's after the Korean War.

Of course, it is a story and you can tell it any way you want.

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Nuff_Said

The US Navy has a better history of taking in foreign nationals than the US Army. Something to consider.

Some history;
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/85739.htm

AmigaClone ๐Ÿšซ

@Nuff_Said

Can he propably serve in WW2 in the US army?

Probably the simplest solution for GGF to serve in WW2 would be for GGF enlisting in a National Guard unit of his state soon after he became an US citizen.

F: The reason GF and GGF consider him a disgrace would be that he came back claiming to be in a secret unit being involved in missions around the world, but in reality spent much of his the four years of military service peeling potatoes at Fort Leavenworth (not as an inmate.)

dsclink3 ๐Ÿšซ

@Nuff_Said

F: what kind of service he might have to make his father/grandfather consider him a disgrace (no specific actions, only career). Or should I just make him a draft-dodger?

It could be that F spent his time in service working with USO shows and never saw combat. GGF and GF may be old fashioned in their views and thought F should have tried to transfer to a more manly combat unit instead of "Fetching snacks for pampered Hollywood starlets". This would keep the Father from having committed any dishonorable actions but still meet with disapproval from GGF and GF.

There are many support positions in the military that don't see front line combat that would be looked down upon by gritty hard bitten combat vets.

DBActive ๐Ÿšซ

@Nuff_Said

For the grandfather remember voluntary enlistment was banned after the end of 1942. Also, depending on his service there is no reason why the GF couldn't wind up his service as an officer. Finally, it would not be unlikely that the GF would also wind up in Korea.

Paladin_HGWT ๐Ÿšซ

@Nuff_Said

The Imperial Russian Army did have Warrant Officers, most commonly in the various sub-branches of Artillery, the Fortress Engineers, Combat Engineers, Communications (wire {phone and/or telegraph} and wireless (radio; mostly CW Continuous Wave: using Morse Code or other codes) even heliographs); Vehicle and/or Generator Maintenance, Medical, Railroads (both the track laying and maintenance, as well as the Engines); even a fledgling Imperial Russian Air Corps.

As for serving in the US Army in WWII, the US Govt. started expanding the armed forces in 1939, a bit Before Germany invaded Poland. The start of WWII in Europe accelerated the expansion. (China had been conducting various military campaigns in China all during the 1930's; US Army, Navy and Marines were stationed in China during this time.) The US reinstated the Draft in 1940. Most of the National Guard of the several states were also mobilized for 1 year (at various starting dates) thru 1940.

Until the attack on Pearl Harbor, there was not much enthusiasm for enlisting. Pay in the US Army was Lower in 1939 than it was in 1928! SO, if the GGF had a motivation (say the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of Aug 1939 to cause him to believe a Soviet-Nazi alliance would be a threat, he might volunteer.) So, if the GGF volunteers in late 39/early 40 at age 44-46, with relevant skills, he would probably be accepted.

{It would be Easy to obtain fake ID showing him to be under age 34, and it would be even more likely to enlist.}

Another possibility for the Father is he is declared "4F" due to "Flat Feet", bad teeth, that neither the GGF nor GF believe should have prevented his enlistment.

Another possibility is the Father had a (good paying) job in a "critical industry" such as aircraft manufacture, or RADAR components, or Optics for Naval or Tank Guns, and was Not Allowed to enlist. Prior to 1940, the Optical Sights for USA Tanks and some Artillery (and Artillery Plotting) were manufactured in Germany! The USA had to scramble to produce Quality Optics domestically! {I had a Great, Great Uncle who got a job grinding lenses used as auxiliary gunsights by the USN in 1938, in San Diego; he was exempted from the draft, or rather had a specific Draft Category that meant he would never be called up.)

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