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Character Descriptions

Vincent Berg 🚫

We've discussions descriptions until we're blue in the face, but I took a few moments to reflect on it recently, and thought I'd try tackling it once again.

While many SOL authors are quick to quote details (ex: precise hight, weight, bra size and almost including shoe size too), I found one that seemed ideal:

She and Coleen were the opposite in height and shape. Coleen had more flesh on her bones and was much shorter than Maisie. She was a pretty girl with red hair, but nowhere near as red as Maisie's.

That's an ideal example of focusing on evaluative or emotional descriptions, as it contrasts the two, without relying on details that no two individuals would even know without personally examining each other's underwear drawer.

But after reading that description, I noticed that it was virtually the only actual physical description in the entire book. Normally the author described people tersely, such as "tall and gangly" or "broad and stout", but said little beside that, especially for the main protagonists.

Instead, she approach her descriptions from the side. Having someone compliment the protagonist, have the protagonist demure, mentioning their imperfections (hair, size, stature, etc.) and then have the first character contradict them.

Since everyone's self-conscious, especially where dating and social engagements are concerned, that seems a much more natural introductions than having the main character describing themselves in confident, self-assured terms as if he were someone else. That way, the actual descriptions becomes secondary as the character states their own insecurities. Cocky self-assuredness doesn't always strike me as attractiveness, as I personally prefer honest doubts and inner skepticism.

Anyone have any other approaches, or do you simply avoid physical descriptions entirely. Saying (or having a character state) that someone is beautiful is essentially a meaningless statement, as I don't think there's a man alive who hasn't stated that very thing to virtually every woman he meets. And while women won't generally tell a man that they're gorgeous, they'll generally admit in within a group when that person isn't personally present, instead telling them that they're 'handsome' or 'look nice'. More often, the observations are direct (i.e. that shirt looks good on you, I love the new hairstyle as it fits your face).

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

Anyone have any other approaches, or do you simply avoid physical descriptions entirely.

I don't generally give much in physical description for background characters.

For the main character and top level secondary characters I tend to be a bit more descriptive, I will generally include basic visually obvious characteristics such as hair color, and skin tone. Height if noted is relative to the POV character for the scene. Bust size may be noted for a female character, but this is in either relative or descriptive terms, not measurements/cup size.

I may give height in an actual measurement for the MC or an important secondary character who is pov in that scene (I mostly do third omni for narration). In my experience, most people know their own height to within +/- an inch or two.

Replies:   Uther Pendragon
Uther Pendragon 🚫

@Dominions Son

I generally give what is important to the character itself and to any person romantically interested in the character. Marylin Grant has padded bras "which she thinks are a social necessity or girls with A cups." She is short and light; Andy is tall and fairly strong, although not athletic.

One thing I note for many of my characters is how well they sing. Their speaking voices as well.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Uther Pendragon

One thing I note for many of my characters is how well they sing. Their speaking voices as well.

That's always attractive, until they ask their tone-deaf boyfriends to sing. For some reason, those raised in musical families seem unable to relate to an inability to hit the right note. (My ex-wife, both daughters, and my ex's entire family have stunning voices, yet they continually insisted on humiliating me anytime there was a family gathering!)

Mushroom 🚫

@Vincent Berg

While many SOL authors are quick to quote details (ex: precise hight, weight, bra size and almost including shoe size too), I found one that seemed ideal:

I think what I find most fascinating is the obsession with bra size. Especially since most do not even know what the sizes actually mean.

This is why if it is a male narrating, I normally stick to just cup size. This is the closest part of the size that correlates to the size of the breasts themselves. The number size, it is almost meaningless in that area.

The number is literally the "Band Size", the number of inches for the band that goes around the chest BELOW the breasts. So for a 36AAA or 36DDD, it is the exact same. It is the cup that actually describes the part the breast goes into.

And even that is not entirely accurate, as you start with the diameter of the chest below the breast, and add 3-4 inches (rounding up for the next even number), and that is the size you get. So a 36" is actually 32-33 inches around.

The cup? Measure around the farthest out portion of the breast, then subtract that from the band size. 0" is AA, each inch larger is another cup (1" is A, 2" is B, etc). So if that area measures 42" and the diameter below the breast is 32, 32+3+1 equals 36, minus 42 gives you 6, which means a DDD cup.

Now for women, I can get giving a band size because that is how they buy them. But for us guys, the band size largely means nothing when admiring the size of breasts. Unless you are trying to imply she has the body of a pixie (30-32), or is a BBW (40+).

Replies:   Dominions Son  DiscipleN
Dominions Son 🚫

@Mushroom

The thing you have to keep in mind is that cup size is relative, not a fixed volume. 32D breasts would actually, in terms of absolute volume, be smaller than a 36C.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@Dominions Son

The thing you have to keep in mind is that cup size is relative, not a fixed volume. 32D breasts would actually, in terms of absolute volume, be smaller than a 36C.

True, but that is still proportionate to their body. Which I think is ultimately what most people consider.

As such, while breasts in a 32D would be smaller than a 46D, there is no doubt that in proportion to their body, they would not only appear larger, but more in keeping than the stated 42D.

Most male writers do not seem to grasp this, as the numbers mean little to nothing to them. Hence, most women tending to fall within 34C and 38DDD. And while a 34D would be smaller in volume than a 38D, their appearance would be larger because of the smaller torso dimension.

Think of it like this, place a grapefruit half on the chest of a small-average sized torso, and a cantaloupe half on that of a larger torso. Both may be a "D Cup" in reference to the frame, but there is little doubt that most would notice the smaller torso first.

This is something I always keep in mind when describing my female characters. Pay more attention to their frame, and less on just their breasts alone.

DiscipleN 🚫

@Mushroom

Guilty! Thanks for explaining. I'll do better in the future.

Quasirandom 🚫

@Vincent Berg

I am very sparse with my descriptions β€” I try to give one or two telling details, trying to stick to what the point of view considers telling/essential. Heights are given in relative terms, usually, unless the POV is particularly self-conscious about it. Breast sizes are usually vague if mentioned at all. Everything else comes out through interaction as DS describes.

Of course, I'm a highly dialogue focused writer.

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Vincent Berg

VB, especially in view of several responses, in this and other threads, by authors who give minimal physical descriptions of characters, I started trying to think of which characters from novels I've read I still have a picture of in my mind. Answer: not very many, and some of those are likely not due to the descriptions in the books, but from pictures on dust jackets.

The ones where I do carry clear mental images that I'm pretty sure aren't just memories of pictures, are those where there physical characteristics were important to their character, such as Miles Vorkosigan in Lois McMaster Bujold's books. His short stature and frail bones - in the early books were things he had to overcome because of social stigma in his society to genetic defects, plus his career as a military leader, and he did so with brilliance, creativity, energy, charisma, and chutzpah. Just describing him makes me want to re-read those books! Characters matter.

Like you, and others, detailed statistics don't mean much, cup size doesn't connect, and I especially dislike references to actors, actresses, or models. If I recognize the reference, then I want the character to act like that person. So, I can picture John Wayne, but then he has to be John Wayne, not Bruce Wayne.

Overall, though, I think it is when physical characteristics impinge on the character's goals in the story that they become memorable, and therefore worth description. Teddy's obesity in Pussy Pirates would be an example, especially since he is a strong leader and at the same time self-conscious and unwilling to ask for or even accept sex with the beautiful, naked cam girls that are part of his operation because he is sure they couldn't be attracted to him.

Of course, that doesn't tell how to describe them, but I think it gets back to your idea of the most emotionally relevant items, especially as relevant to the character and those in the story.

Replies:   Vincent Berg  Mushroom
Vincent Berg 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Answer: not very many, and some of those are likely not due to the descriptions in the books, but from pictures on dust jackets.

Of course, most times, unless the cover image is a painting, they're merely photographs of paid models, rather than images of the character expressed by the author.

We've discussed the 'readers invent their own description', which is largely true, though there are exceptions. Often, the description is significant to the plot. In the book I quoted, as an orphan seeking information about her family, her being a red-head denotes her family is either Irish or possibly Scottish. Otherwise, if there's something you want readers to recall, rather than stating it only once, you reinforce it, reminding readers of the essential details. Thus, if you only describe them once, assume that NO ONE will remember what the character is supposed to look like.

Of course, that doesn't tell how to describe them, but I think it gets back to your idea of the most emotionally relevant items, especially as relevant to the character and those in the story.

Still, in those cases, those characteristics are a better description than those indistinct physical descriptions, which will only change over time anyway. A character's underlying personality, insecurities or temperament will stick with them their entirely lives, giving more continuity for longer epic stories (i.e. longer than a single summer).

Mushroom 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Of course, that doesn't tell how to describe them, but I think it gets back to your idea of the most emotionally relevant items, especially as relevant to the character and those in the story.

And ironically, I can think of at least 2 novels which did the exact opposite.

In "Starship Troopers", we go through the entire story and never learn what Johnny Rico looks like other than he has black hair and is slender. And it is only in the end of the very last chapter that he states he is from the Philippines.

There was another book I read that was similar, in the 1980's. Also about a soldier with a suit of super armor, and only in the end is it revealed he was black.

Kind of like Master Chief in HALO. His actual race is largely meaningless, it can be whatever the player wants it to be. I am sure that in the Japanese version, the players assume he is Japanese. The same in Germany, Italy, France, or any other country. I think it enhances the story that it is never explicitly stated. But I always loved Starship Troopers, as his race was actually casually tossed out there, and a lot who even read the book never picked up on it.

Replies:   mauidreamer
mauidreamer 🚫

@Mushroom

In "Starship Troopers", we go through the entire story and never learn what Johnny Rico looks like other than he has black hair and is slender. And it is only in the end of the very last chapter that he states he is from the Philippines.

I think RAH, on purpose or by accident, was being deceptive. What is stated is that his birth language was Tagalog, so he was of Philippine ethnicity. However, the book also mentions that Rico's dad - a wealthy businessman who was a prior opponent to the war and military service - joined up after the Bugs attack on Earth and in particular, the destruction of Buenos Aires and of the Rico home and family, while the dad was on a business trip.

So, did Rico grow up in Argentina or did RAH change his mind?

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@mauidreamer

I think RAH, on purpose or by accident, was being deceptive. What is stated is that his birth language was Tagalog, so he was of Philippine ethnicity. However, the book also mentions that Rico's dad - a wealthy businessman who was a prior opponent to the war and military service - joined up after the Bugs attack on Earth and in particular, the destruction of Buenos Aires and of the Rico home and family, while the dad was on a business trip.

So, did Rico grow up in Argentina or did RAH change his mind?

Actually, the book never stated he was from Argentina, only that his mother was there when it was destroyed.

I always believed either they had lived there for business, or that she was visiting there when the attack happened. But nowhere in the book does it say he lived other than on "Earth". And as the planet by that time had a unified world government, relocating for business purposes (especially if you are a rich businessman) is not a big deal. After all, they tried to bribe Johnny with an expensive space journey in the hopes he would forget about joining because of it.

And his father was not against the war or military, he simply saw no reason for their son to join, as he could provide him with anything he needed safely at home.

But I think it was done on purpose. This is something that was completely lost when they made that movie that shared almost nothing but the title.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Vincent Berg

She and Coleen were the opposite in height and shape. Coleen had more flesh on her bones and was much shorter than Maisie. She was a pretty girl with red hair, but nowhere near as red as Maisie's.

Were there three girls, Coleen, Maisie and the unnamed 'she'? And 'the opposite' looks weird - what were 'she' and Coleen opposite to?

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Were there three girls, Coleen, Maisie and the unnamed 'she'?

I read it that "she" was Maisie.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I read it that "she" was Maisie.

Perhaps more context would have made things clearer. But since "she was a pretty girl with red hair, but nowhere near as red as Maisie's", that's debatable.

From "While many SOL authors are quick to quote details ... I found one that seemed ideal:", I wrongly expected to find that passage on SOL. I wonder who the author actually was.

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

But since "she was a pretty girl with red hair, but nowhere near as red as Maisie's",

The first "she" is Maisie while the second "she" is Coleen. Pronoun confusion.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The first "she" is Maisie while the second "she" is Coleen. Pronoun confusion.

If they are confused, maybe they are armature nouns rather than pro nouns. [ducks]

Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Perhaps more context would have made things clearer. But since "she was a pretty girl with red hair, but nowhere near as red as Maisie's", that's debatable.

They both had red hair, but Coleen--being Scottish--wasn't as pronounced, which again provides clues concerning Maisie's background in the story (i.e. physical characteristics being essential to the underlying plot).

But the author is Glynis Peters, not that it affects the passage, as I was questioning how descriptions are put together, rather than how accurate they are, one way or the other.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Were there three girls, Coleen, Maisie and the unnamed 'she'? And 'the opposite' looks weird - what were 'she' and Coleen opposite to?

As I keep reminding my editors, 's/he' pronouns typically signify the previous referenced person. So, in this instance, "she" signifies Maisie. There is no third girl in this instance, and even Coleen is, at best, a tertiary character, not in the story for more than a single chapter of two.

Of course, the description continues, but that gets more into the major plot points, which I didn't think were particularly relevant.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Vincent Berg

As I keep reminding my editors, 's/he' pronouns typically signify the previous referenced person.

But

Coleen had more flesh on her bones and was much shorter than Maisie. She was a pretty girl with red hair, but nowhere near as red as Maisie's.

The previous referenced person was Maisie, so Maisie was a pretty girl with red hair, but nowhere near as red as Maisie's. ;-)

AJ

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

I know this isn't the kind of description VB started this thread about, but I just read it and, wow! Its from one that many here seem to consider one of the masters, Lazlo Zalezac in the story that began the Damsels in Distress Universe:

Professor Smith smiled as she observed his reaction and knew it for what it was, but not what motivated it. Curious, she said, "Mr. Jones. It would appear that the women of this class would like to know what you find beautiful in a woman. I think it is because they are interested in attracting you. Are you sure that you won't provide us with a description?"

Deciding that the women of the class should learn how far they were from his ideal of beauty, he answered, "I could describe what I consider the ideal of beauty, but you would have to understand that I would be describing a woman I know. I doubt that any of my classmates would enjoy the description."

Sensing a challenge, the woman who had requested his opinion said, "Please. I want to hear what you have to say."

"I was leaving her not too long ago and stopped at the door to fix in my memory her appearance so that I could savor it while I was away," said Sid as he closed his eyes.

"She is a woman of mixed ancestry. The result of that mixture gives her a very exotic appearance. The color of her unblemished skin reminds me of a perfect tan. She has long black hair that hangs down to the middle of her back without a single curl. The color of her hair is so dark that it reflects the light with a supernatural sheen."

"Her facial features are predominately white. She has an upturned nose, strong chin, and high cheekbones. Her lips are full and lush. When she smiles, her lips part exposing her brilliant white teeth. She smiles often, and with devastating effect."

"It is her eyes that will draw your attention away from the rest of her face. They are brown in brown, giving a sense of depth. They sparkle with intelligence. Looking at her eyes, you know that you would like to know more about her as a person. Laugh lines give testament to her good sense of humor."

Sid smiled as he thought about her eyes. He continued, "She is of medium height with the same kind of curves as Marilyn Monroe. She is soft to the touch, but there is strength beneath the surface. When she gives a hug, her body is soft and yielding even as she pulls you into her with surprising strength."

"Her breasts are probably a B cup. There is no waste when you cup them in your hands and yet they fill your hands in a most remarkable manner. The areolæ are dark and topped with responsive nipples that erect to the size of an eraser when caressed with a light touch. They are natural rather than silicon mountains that defy gravity."

A number of the women in the class swallowed heavily and looked down at their chests. Professor Smith was willing to bet a few of them were rethinking their plans for breast augmentation.

His voice became softer and gentler as Sid said, "Her legs are long and lean. She wears heels to sculpt her calves, but they are not so high that they throw her stomach forward and her ass back. They are reasonable heels that allow her to walk with grace."

"One of the things that one notices, is her posture. She has perfect posture. When she sits, her back is straight, her head is level, and her legs are together. She crosses her legs at the ankles. When she stands, her back is straight, her shoulders are back, her head is held up, and her weight is evenly distributed on her legs."

"She is amazing when still, but in movement she'll take your breath away. When she walks, she walks with deliberation - one foot in front of the other, adding a feminine sway to her hips. Her pace is slow and sensual." He shivered at the memory.

"Every movement that she makes is graceful. When she sits, she lowers herself to the seat with control rather than flopping into the chair. When she reaches for something, her arms and hands move together so that she doesn't look as if she is lunging at things. There is a real beginning, middle, and end to her movements. The beginning and ends are fixed points and the middle smoothly connects the two without any jerky movements."

"It is not only what she does that makes her attractive, but the things she doesn't do. She never hurries or rushes her movements. She never clomps along looking like a duck or a stork in shoes that don't flex or are too tall. She doesn't move as though her body were a sack of flour."

With a sigh, he said, "She has a sense of fashion that knows how to tease the eye. In private, she wears long soft diaphanous gowns that hide as much as they reveal. Clothes that make you wonder where to look first. The colors are chosen to draw attention to the woman inside the clothes. The fabric is soft to the touch."

Without ever seeing Sally in a less private context, Sid described how he believed she would dress based on how Elizabeth had dressed. He said, "In public, her outfits are classy and no less sexy. She wears simple dresses that are cut to show off her figure, but not to distort it. The treasures of her body are hinted at, rather than exposed to view."

"The neckline plunges, but stops before her breasts are revealed as little more than the beginning of swelling. It makes a man want to look, yet frustrates him that he can't see more. The lengths of her outfits are chosen to provide natural lines that make her body look normal. The cuts of the sleeves and hem are just above or just below the joints, rather than between joints like those flood-water pants that so many women seem to prefer, yet makes them look ridiculous when wearing them."

A number of women in the class shifted in their seats; bothered by his attack on a fashion that they enjoyed. Their unease increased when he said, "She doesn't wear shirts that are too short with pants that are too low, showing a bulging belly created by an overly tight belt at the waistline. There isn't a tacky naval piercing drawing attention away from the woman that it is supposed to adorn. She doesn't rely upon baubles to look pretty. There are no tattoos to mask her natural beauty, or break up the expanses of her skin."

More than one woman in the class was actively frowning at his description. A few tried to pull their shirts down to cover their bare bellies. He had kept his eyes closed through his whole speech. He opened them and said, "More than her actual appearance, is the woman inside. She is intelligent, witty, caring and loving. She gives rather than takes. She asks rather than demands. When she says goodbye, her eyes mist, letting you know that she is truly going to miss you."

Looking around the room, he added, "She is also at ease with her body and knows that the ultimate delight her body brings to a man is in bed. She doesn't worry if her buttocks are too large, legs too fat, or breasts too small. She knows that buttocks are for holding in the midst of passion and that any size will serve that purpose. Legs are to wrap around her man to pull him tighter into her and arms to pull him even closer to her for full body contact. She knows that breasts exist to be suckled, kissed, and licked. Even more importantly, she knows that any size breast can serve those purposes. She gives of herself to her lover without reservation."

Sid stopped and looked at Professor Smith noticing that she looked flustered. She wasn't the only one in the room with a slightly dazed expression.

The woman seated next to Sid broke the silence when she asked, "How does a normal woman compete with that?"

With real envy in his voice, a guy in the class asked, "Where can I find a woman like that?"

I would say that, as discussed in the comments on this thread, that this might be even better without the "B cup" reference.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@JoeBobMack

There isn't a tacky naval piercing

Would that be from a sailboat?

AJ

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I missed that in reading - probably just too caught up in the author's work!

Vincent Berg 🚫

@JoeBobMack

"She is a woman of mixed ancestry. The result of that mixture gives her a very exotic appearance. The color of her unblemished skin reminds me of a perfect tan. She has long black hair that hangs down to the middle of her back without a single curl. The color of her hair is so dark that it reflects the light with a supernatural sheen."

That works, even with the physical description, because he's describing his (the character's) emotional attachment to her (i.e. those features he most cherishes, rather than those which might otherwise stand out the most. Unfortunately, in direct contrast to that, his lengthy descriptions says almost nothing about her personality (another failing of most SOL authors) as the women tend to be objects to be acquired, rather than full-formed characters in their own right. (Not that I'm critiquing Lazlo, but it's fairly stereotypical in that regard.)

In most instances, when you ask about someone's spouse, they'll tell you about either their strengths, or the cute things they do--often as they struggle to overcome difficulties in their lives--rather than their purely physical features. With girlfriends, one tends to focus on that 'first glance' evaluation, which is often the most superficial, which is why so many first romances fail, because the personality never matches that first impression.

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack 🚫

@Vincent Berg

There is a lot of physical description. He's describing a woman with whom he has only recently established a relationship, but I think the personality description is a little more than almost nothing. He mentions intelligence, humor, and calm, unhurried movements. Then, at the end, there's this:


"More than her actual appearance, is the woman inside. She is intelligent, witty, caring and loving. She gives rather than takes. She asks rather than demands. When she says goodbye, her eyes mist, letting you know that she is truly going to miss you."

Looking around the room, he added, "She is also at ease with her body and knows that the ultimate delight her body brings to a man is in bed. She doesn't worry if her buttocks are too large, legs too fat, or breasts too small. She knows that buttocks are for holding in the midst of passion and that any size will serve that purpose. Legs are to wrap around her man to pull him tighter into her and arms to pull him even closer to her for full body contact. She knows that breasts exist to be suckled, kissed, and licked. Even more importantly, she knows that any size breast can serve those purposes. She gives of herself to her lover without reservation."

"More than her actual appearance, is the woman inside. She is intelligent, witty, caring and loving. She gives rather than takes. She asks rather than demands. When she says goodbye, her eyes mist, letting you know that she is truly going to miss you."

Looking around the room, he added, "She is also at ease with her body and knows that the ultimate delight her body brings to a man is in bed. She doesn't worry if her buttocks are too large, legs too fat, or breasts too small. She knows that buttocks are for holding in the midst of passion and that any size will serve that purpose. Legs are to wrap around her man to pull him tighter into her and arms to pull him even closer to her for full body contact. She knows that breasts exist to be suckled, kissed, and licked. Even more importantly, she knows that any size breast can serve those purposes. She gives of herself to her lover without reservation."


I suspect that many men would be interested in dating a woman based on that last paragraph alone.

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