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Out-of-date numbers

PotomacBob ๐Ÿšซ

Do numbers tell the story?
You wrote a story about how expensive it was to buy something (say a gun, a horse, a car or a house). Many stories on SOL do not provide the date of the setting. Ten or twenty years later somebody read your story and observes, "That price is unrealistically LOW."
Would it have been better if you had not included the price?
There are probably numbers other than prices where the perception of the meaning changes over time. How do you deal with that in writing?
If there were a sustained period of deflation, the opposite could be true. is it better just to say something is expensive/inexpensive than to provide numbers?
I know nothing about guns or horses. So today, if you tell me a gun or a horse cost $500 or $5,000 - I don't know whether you got a bargain or got cheated (or whether than range is even realistic).
As an author, what's the best way to deal with numbers in your best-selling novel?

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

Ten or twenty years later somebody read your story and observes, "That price is unrealistically LOW."

My WIP takes place during WW2. I actually gave the price of an automobile for that time period. I think it adds color and maybe realism to the story. This is the paragraph:

Parked at the side of the house was a green 1940 Chevrolet two-door KB Master 85 Coup. It was a cheaper model than the Master Deluxe or Special Deluxe, having less standard equipment and plainer upholstery. But that was expected for a soldier. Automobiles were expensive. It had to have cost Ollie over six hundred dollars.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Parked at the side of the house was a green 1940 Chevrolet two-door KB Master 85 Coup. It was a cheaper model than the Master Deluxe or Special Deluxe, having less standard equipment and plainer upholstery. But that was expected for a soldier. Automobiles were expensive. It had to have cost Ollie over six hundred dollars.

This is a great use of the environment to take the reader back in time. Nicely done.

Replies:   Pixy
Pixy ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

But is it Redsilver? As a 'non-American' my first thought was (Other than who the fuck buys a green car...) "What shade of green, bright lime, fluorescent, grass, etc, etc, etc" Also, "Having less standard equipment..." Which is what, exactly? I have no-idea what equipment you get, so some indication for the reader would have been nice. "And plainer upholstery..." Which is what exactly? Tartan, purple, brown, red? Who knows, apart from the author...

So you see Redsilver, why I am not in agreement about it being great use of the environment (other than there being no actual environment involved...)

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@Pixy

Yes. Yes it is. It's an indicator of the time and place. The environment, the setting. It's a quantifiable metric. Doesn't mean it means something to everyone, just that it helps define the setting and it does so well.

There's always more detail that could be included. There's also certain details that connect with certain segments of the audience. For example, what color green wouldn't help define the time place unless there was something unique to the setting about that particular shade of green. Perhaps some quality of paint.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

The weird thing is, it's not the end-of-the-world as such is sometimes portrayed. Greater magnitudes and longer times in that regime can be, and obviously are much worse, we got it easy.

Agreed. It's not a one size fits all either. Because something happened in one place, did not guarantee it would be the same everywhere under the same conditions.
The only consistency I personally noted was a barter system would be born under the harsher conditions.
When the currency dejour is worth more as toilet paper, tangibles become the order of the day. As a foreign traveler, you had to pay attention to that. In the Ukraine, there was a time when the clothes you had on could get you killed for the value of the clothes. A set of locally procured clothing was required for safety.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Remus2

In the Ukraine, there was a time when the clothes you had on could get you killed for the value of the clothes.

I remember the UK govt advising visitors to the Soviet Union to beware of wearing denim jeans in public because there was a spate of tourists getting mugged for them. Canny tourists took extra pairs with them and sold them for US dollars on the black market.

AJ

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

That continued until the former Soviet States stabilized.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Pixy

It's meaningless jargon to me too, but there is a Wikipedia (spit!) article.

AJ

Replies:   Jack Green
Jack Green ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

Nothing to do with the OP but why (spit!) after Wikipedia? I notice you do it each time you mention the website. Wouldn't it be better not to mention it and save your spit, or do you think it worth spending spit to publicise Wikipedia?

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Jack Green

Wikipedia is extremely biased on anything remotely controversial and/or political. Despite that they are still often the most convenient source that cited on-line.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Jack Green

Nothing to do with the OP but why (spit!) after Wikipedia?

The coverage by Wikipedia (spit!) of my area of research is completely and utterly wrong. I haven't published my results yet, and because of the impossibility of enforcing intellectual property rights (others in the field have been ripped off), I'm in no hurry to do so. However that means I'm in no position to offer corrections.

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

However that means I'm in no position to offer corrections.

They might not take a correction from you citing your own original research even if it has been published. I've read about them doing that to others.

P.S. Out of curiosity, what is your area of research? No big deal if you don't want to answer.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

No big deal if you don't want to answer.

Thanks. It's not a well-researched field (which probably contributes to Wikipedia (spit!) being so wrong) so I'd probably be easy to trace.

AJ

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Jack Green

DS has the right of if. If there is a hint of controversy or politics it cannot be trusted. Sometimes those hints are not obvious.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecuadorian_sucre

That is a prime example of something that should not be trusted from Wikipedia. That piece of fiction does not pass the smell test of anyone in country between 1998 and 2000. For that matter, any thinking person period. The quoted inflation rates are not so extreme that they would necessitate the need for printing a 50k note.

The truth of it was Ecuador pissed off OPEC and the IMF refusing to back off on planned expansion of their oil and gas output. In response OPEC worked with the IMF and others to freeze out and bury Ecuador.

StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

Many stories on SOL do not provide the date of the setting.

Put something in the story to date the setting, that lets the reader know what's right regarding pricing. Or just simply don't put pricing in it.

Redsliver ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

If there's deflation something went horribly wrong!

If my money's gonna be worth more tomorrow, then I'm not gonna spend it today, which is gonna stall the economy, which is why most nations aim for 2% inflation. I think very few countries have figured out how to reach that number.

I try not to be specific with dollar amounts. If someone's getting fucked over or the sheer amount of cash is impressive, maybe then? But I haven't written many stories with purchases in the seven figure range.

One of my favorite stories of inflation affecting writing is Scott Pilgrim vs The World. When he defeats his enemies they collapse into coins. His first enemy: Matthew Patel collapses into $2.10, 15 cents short of a bus ticket at the time of writing. By the time the movie comes out, the prices of buses have increased in Toronto, so Patel drops $2.35 just so Ramona's line remains "I'll spot you the fifteen cents."

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg ๐Ÿšซ

@Redsliver

One of my favorite stories of inflation affecting writing is Scott Pilgrim vs The World. When he defeats his enemies they collapse into coins. His first enemy: Matthew Patel collapses into $2.10, 15 cents short of a bus ticket at the time of writing. By the time the movie comes out, the prices of buses have increased in Toronto, so Patel drops $2.35 just so Ramona's line remains "I'll spot you the fifteen cents."

Back in my D&D days, I learned the golden rule was to always tie values to the price of gold. Obviously, that won't help within the story itself, as individuals rarely tell you their salary in gold shares, but it's a better currency evaluation over the ages than anything else.

Still, simply stating the comparative value of things would help, say when someone points out their new car, and compares the (unstated) price to the price they paid at a specific period in their past.

But in my case, I prefer to keep my stories in the 'unstated present', so the story doesn't date itself. Certain cultural events will date any story, but their absence will date the story more than a specific year will anyway, so if the date doesn't bear any specific historical relevance, it's really not worth mentioning. However, for a generational family saga, then it makes sense noting the passage of time by actually listing the dates as they pass. But you're right, simply listing a price with nothing to compare it too will definitely date your story (ex: say any story that mentions a specific brand of computer).

LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Some numbers can effectively date a story all by itself. If you're giving exact parameters of a computer, for example, especially if it's intended to be impressive, it would peg the story down to, possibly a certain year. The same might become true with electric cars, even if perhaps to slightly less extent.

It's a fun excercise to try to guess time of writing of a science fiction story by technology referenced. If, for example, there's widespread use of internet but no real mobile phones present it's quite narrow window when it could have been written.

Pricing, if mentioned need defined context and/or assessment on a bargain-robbery scale right there, always. If I mentioned prices for something in Latvian Rubles the knowledge it only was in circulation between 1991 and 1994 wouldn't help you -- it experienced roughly 10000% inflation in that short time (with still was about two orders of magnitude better than USSR Ruble it was a detached derivative of).

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@LupusDei

it experienced roughly 10000% inflation in that short time

That would be a story in and of itself. I don't think anyone in the west understands what that is like. Depending on the year, I was in Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia (country not state) and Russia during those years. I recall a lot of "issues" with people bringing in foreign currency and goods.

Replies:   Dominions Son  LupusDei
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

I don't think anyone in the west understands what that is like.

Well few alive today have experienced it personally, but for those who are aware of the history, there is the Weimar Republic.

Peru in the 1980s.

And in Venezuela inflation hit 1,698,488% in 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

There are some examples in the last two decades. Unfortunately, anyone attempting to draw attention to them are typically ostracized.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

There are some examples in the last two decades. Unfortunately, anyone attempting to draw attention to them are typically ostracized.

All the idiot who say it couldn't happen here because the US is "special".

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

All the idiot who say it couldn't happen here because the US is "special".

Are sadly mistaken and or misinformed. It already happened in the US circa early 30's. It can happen again.

LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Remus2

it experienced roughly 10000% inflation in that short time


That would be a story in and of itself. I don't think anyone in the west understands what that is like.

The weird thing is, it's not the end-of-the-world as such is sometimes portrayed. Greater magnitudes and longer times in that regime can be, and obviously are much worse, we got it easy.

Well, personally I was still in high school, so somewhat shielded from the very brunt of it too, probably. My weekly pocket money allowance from my dad went from 5 rubles in September to 500 the following May, without actual increase in purchase value (my dad's an accountant, so I could trust that as fact). Nevertheless, the life went on surprisingly normally overall.

Yes, you don't save and try to exchange local currency you receive to something else as soon as you possibly can.

Booze becomes an actual currency. A 1/2 liter bottle of vodka would get you up to half day work from a neighbor on the countryside. Any goods that can be easily stockpiled. 25kg bags of sugar, if you can get your hands on. We had a garden shed full of brand new furniture we didn't really need (although much of it was labeled as possible use if some future plans come to, everyone realized it was an excuse). A couple extra TV sets too.

There's actually still a 200L barrel of A76 gasoline, possibly stolen from a construction site before sold out of hand. (I don't know is it actually usable still, but it's a sealed barrel without any air in it, and don't annoy anyone, so it's still there.) And yes, it was bought while you would routinely plan for two hours of a queue at a gas pump, limited to 20L per customer, and no guarantee they won't run out. Larger purchases, if you have a seller accepting -rubbish- rubles and the money at hand, you pay the asking price; availability is the limiting factor more often than not.

Sure, "hard" foriegn currency is part of the best solution, regardless of legality of circulation of such. Then, nobody worries much about legality of anything if police can't react to calls because their vehicles are out of gas and their wages withhold for three months and more -- with mean they are actually unpaid (and, no much surprise, there even was rumors of rapes by people in police uniform).

US dollars was the favorite of course, German marks were in circulation too, to somewhat lesser extent. You pretty soon have default function in your mind converting prices and currencies as you go, and current exchange rates are default news right there with weather forecast and is boldly displayed at every exchange kiosk and in bank windows, and yes, nobody wonder if afternoon values differ from the morning (the change isn't always the same direction either, while the trend is clear, day-to-day values may still fluctuate quite a much sometimes).

Electronics stores had their prices in dollars more or less openly. They couldn't display such at shelf, so those changed daily, but at the counter there was a print-out brochure with the actual prices in dollars, with wasn't immutable either (contrary to holdout pockets of Soviet economy that used to have mandated prices etched in plastic extrusion molds and similar -- with criminal charges of "speculation" if you asked more).

On the business side, if you could delay a payment, even a few days, you could probably profit on it. So, what you get in wages was sometimes piped through a random function with your boss goodwill in the parameters. Private sector pretty soon switched to real wages indexed against "hard" currency, if not even given in such, as cash, with no taxes paid on that part, naturally. Naturally, such was only be possible if there was revenue stream in alternative currency, but our economy as small as it is, the "if you don't export you don't exist" mantra is true still. Government work went more or less unpaid, did mostly either by fanatics on a self given mission or otherwise interested persons.

Then, we're here a hardened bunch as it was, with millennia old tradition of self reliance,

and when it comes to the last century... My grandfather was born in 1913, a youngest of five brothers orphaned during WW1. Around 1920 there was around 20 alternative currencies in circulation simultaneously in the post war chaos the country was born out of, in armed independence fights (and yes, we often call that process "fights" and not a "war" for a reason; you will get lost quickly trying to follow who was with whom when and why British fleet was firing at West Russian Volunteer Army formally formed to fight communism but attacking Riga for some garbled reasons instead).

Then, after the thirties with were time of unquestionable prosperity even despite the background of global depression there was Soviet occupation of 1939 with, among other atrocities, equaled Soviet ruble to Latvian lats overnight (fair exchange rates I'm not going to look for now, but believed to be somewhere on the magnitude of 100Ru:1Ls) and overall did such a poor job Germans were welcomed as liberators. The war ended under Soviet occupation again, and then there was the forced collectivization with robbed peasants again, and I'm not actually knowledgeable, but there's apparently was another, even if relatively milder, round of money devaluation and government robbery of savings sometime in the seventies. So by the nineties much of it wasn't anything unheard or unseen by most, rather just how things happen to be time and again. Money as such is pretty worthless, it's just a plain truth that shouldn't be forgotten.

Maybe thanks to that the crime scene here didn't go completely out of control. Russian side of the border was rumored to go near full wild west, with battling bands of highway robbers. Goods convoys to/from Moscow used to, according to some rumors, employ armed guards sitting behind the first row of boxes in the back of the lorry, instructed to open fire without warning if someone started to unload those boxes when not supposed to.

Meanwhile, our school children -- from the first graders including -- were and still are expected to navigate public transportation to/from school independently. We can do that, in some recent survey we were touted as one of the safest countries in the world... with may as well be true on the ground. So, my experience may not be universal.

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@LupusDei

Wow! Interesting! Thanks for posting this!

I've been thinking a bit about how the economy would change if value were created by those who could do magic, if only some could do it and they had various capacities. Trying to think what would make a society I'd want to live in. This helps a little, in addition to just the interest of a personal perspective of someone who has "been there, done that."

Replies:   Dominions Son  Radagast
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

I've been thinking a bit about how the economy would change if value were created by those who could do magic, if only some could do it and they had various capacities.

In general, value is created in two ways, by the extraction of raw materials from the environment and the conversion of raw materials into useful goods.

Even in a society with magic, you likely still need farmers, miners, lumberjacks, carpenters and smiths.

The less common the ability to use magic is the less likely it is to be a major driver of value in the economy.

If you really want to screw with economics:

I once read a book (dead tree) where a small expedition from earth got dumped into an alternate reality where entropy worked backwards.

Instead of wearing out, tools and other objects get better with use. Few people had the skill to make new tools, and most of what they made were crude stone age implements.

Replies:   Radagast
Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

I'm now struck with CRS trying to recall the story. If IRC the earthmen traded for some amazing artifacts, which reverted to basic stone implements when they returned to their own reality. An interesting take on science fantasy.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Radagast

I'm now struck with CRS trying to recall the story. If IRC the earthmen traded for some amazing artifacts, which reverted to basic stone implements when they returned to their own reality.

The Practice Effect by David Brin

IIRC, they never did get back to their own reality.

Replies:   Radagast
Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

Thanks. I still have it. CRS sucks.

Radagast ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

Do a search for Business as Usual During Alterations by Ralph Williams. Early scifi about the effects of matter replicators being dumped in a capitalist consumer society. Dead Tree, but often cited so probably available as a download.

Replies:   darkscar
darkscar ๐Ÿšซ

@Radagast

George O. Smith's Venus Equilateral series has a couple stories dealing with matter duplicators, and their effects on the economy. The stories ore a little dated, but a good read nonetheless. https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Venus-Equilateral-George-Smith/dp/0345289536

Replies:   Radagast
Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@darkscar

Thanks. I'll add them to my reading list.

BlacKnight ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

I can't recall ever feeling the need to mention a specific price in any story I've ever written. More important than actual numbers is what the cost means to the character, and I don't find that listing numbers is particularly helpful in that regard.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@BlacKnight

I can't recall ever feeling the need to mention a specific price in any story I've ever written.

Here's a paragraph from my first novel, "Sexual Awakening." It shows a lot about the character's personality and that money is tight.

Unzipping her pocketbook, she fished through the contents until locating the old, frayed purse. The driver's stare made her nervous as she thumbed through the bills. She extracted a crisp ten-dollar bill and three ones. Fifty cents was too small a tip. She hunted for another dollar bill, all the while sensing the driver's annoyance and suffering his seething glare. She stuffed the three singles back into her purse and pulled out a five, thrusting the fifteen dollars at the cab driver. As soon as he took the money, she swiped her hat off the seat and bolted from the vehicle without asking for the dollar change that would be needed at the grocery store.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

Here's a paragraph from my first novel, "Sexual Awakening." It shows a lot about the character's personality and that money is tight.

Technically, from the sample quoted, there's really no reason to list the actual price, when you could easily focus on the bills she gave him and the fact she left without the money needed for her groceries.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Crumbly Writer

Technically, from the sample quoted, there's really no reason to list the actual price, when you could easily focus on the bills she gave him and the fact she left without the money needed for her groceries.

It's very early in the novel and the character is being introduced to the reader. It shows many aspects of her character. It shows she doesn't have much money. I think searching for certain bills, counting the money, figuring out the tip, worrying about the tip amount, bolting before asking for change, tells a great deal about her.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@BlacKnight

I can't recall ever feeling the need to mention a specific price in any story I've ever written.

I can think of several cases where it could be important to the story.

1. Highlighting extreme wealth as part of a character's background.

2. Highlighting extreme poverty

3. A character is cheap/an extreme miser regardless of economic status.

4. The story includes an unusual monetary system. I have a far future sci-fi story where the monetary system is based on grams of gold. where 1g = around $1

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

1g

"If a rocket accelerates at 1g (9.81 m/s2) the crew will experience the equivalent of a gravitational field with the same strength as that on Earth."

"m/s2" probably should read meters per second, squared.) S2 isn't an Intelligence Officer in this context.

Replies:   Remus2  Dominions Son
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@richardshagrin

I have a far future sci-fi story where the monetary system is based on grams of gold. where 1g = around $1

I'm probably going to regret asking, but where the hell did you get that?

If a rocket accelerates at 1g (9.81 m/s2) the crew will experience the equivalent of a gravitational field with the same strength as that on Earth."

"m/s2" probably should read meters per second, squared.) S2 isn't an Intelligence Officer in this context

That's a fairly bad out of context quote.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Keet
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Remus2

I have a far future sci-fi story where the monetary system is based on grams of gold. where 1g = around $1


I'm probably going to regret asking, but where the hell did you get that?

My ass mostly. That conversion is not something stated in the story itself. It's something I came up with to guide prices where they do show up in the story.

I assume advances in mining technology make gold and other precious metals less costly to mine and that and things like asteroid mining make it less scarce.

The story does not take place on Earth.

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

It's unlikely that reduced cost of mining would reduce the cost of gold. That cost is more related to rarity than cost of mining. If it was related to cost of mining, rare earth metals would be more expensive than gold.

My comment was also more directed at richardshagrin. How someone gets to the gravitational constant from the gram is reaching fairly extensively.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

That cost is more related to rarity than cost of mining.

I assume advances in mining technology make gold and other precious metals less costly to mine and that and things like asteroid mining make it less scarce.

Also, I am somewhat skeptical that the cost of gold mining, when you add in all the environmental regulatory burdens and the difficulty in locating land available for mining, has no impact on the scarcity of gold.

Also in the universe I built for that story, humanity has spread out across hundreds of star systems, but in general, other than the core worlds closest to Earth, few have anywhere near the population density of the real world Earth.

This combined with mining techniques that are both cheaper and environmentally cleaner + asteroid mining make gold far less scarce relative to the over all human population.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

This combined with mining techniques that are both cheaper and environmentally cleaner + asteroid mining make gold far less scarce relative to the over all human population.

Resent results of estimates concerning comet mining strongly implies that a single comet would likely result the price of gold (plus platinum, diamonds and plutonium) so cheap it would permanently depress the price of those elements, making mining it self-defeating, other than to prevent others from doing so.

Replies:   Remus2  helmut_meukel
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

Resent results of estimates concerning comet mining strongly implies that a single comet

Would you mind sharing the basis of that? How can an estimate be derived with little to no data available? To my knowledge, there has only been two missions to comets (that gathered any related data). One a lander and another an impactor with subsequent spectacular analysis.

helmut_meukel ๐Ÿšซ

@Vincent Berg

a single comet [...] gold (plus platinum, diamonds and plutonium) ...

Where do you find comets rich on those elements?

AFAIK a comet is an asteroid coming too close to the sun so it's lighter components were cooked out creating its halo.
I doubt diamonds will survive this heat and still be diamonds.

HM.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@helmut_meukel

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-deep-impact-produced-deep-results

The results of the first empirical data to be gathered does not support the premise of either heavy metals or diamonds. Which was why I asked from what basis the "estimate was derived.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

The results of the first empirical data to be gathered does not support the premise of either heavy metals or diamonds.

Being only one comet, it can't disprove that premise either.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Being only one comet, it can't disprove that premise either.

True. However it definitely did not support the idea either.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/missions/rosetta-philae/in-depth/

Rosetta/Philea did not support it either. Therefore all available empirical evidence says the idea is bullshit. Still waiting on the supposed data that says otherwise. For context:

Resent results of estimates concerning comet mining strongly implies that a single comet would likely result the price of gold (plus platinum, diamonds and plutonium) so cheap it would permanently depress the price of those elements, making mining it self-defeating, other than to prevent others from doing so.

That has already been proven wrong in context of a singular comet as stated in the quote.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

Rosetta/Philea did not support it either.

Take a look some time at the number of proto-comets that are supposed to be in the Oort cloud.

Data from two comets is no more meaningful than one.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I'm aware of how many are out there. I'm not however the person making claims regarding estimates. Estimates that have yet to be backed up with anything.
https://time.com/3588896/comets-oort-asteroid/

What is they say about models... garbage in garbage out..

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

I'm not however the person making claims regarding estimates. Estimates that have yet to be backed up with anything.

I'm not making estimates either.

But we basically know nothing about the makeup of comets that can be generalized beyond that they contain a lot of ice.

So a fictional story can make them anything it wants and there's no basis to call it implausible.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

But we basically know nothing about the makeup of comets that can be generalized beyond that they contain a lot of ice.

Agreed. Which is the problem. The estimate comment was stated as a fact. Which cannot possibly be correct based on known data.

Vincent Berg ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

I assume advances in mining technology make gold and other precious metals less costly to mine and that and things like asteroid mining make it less scarce.

That's not really a logical conclusion, but I can easily see why you'd make the assumption. The fact is that heavy elements, like gold, are limited quantities since they're created when black holes consume other stars and their core elements are cast off.

It's also been noted for a long time, that the amount of gold has never seriously increased (again, a limited quantity), that once exhausted, is virtually impossible to replicate. What's more, while mining asteroids is theoretically possible, it'll undoubtedly be incredibly expensive, not just due to transportations costs of an interplanetary vehicle, but because the most likely asteroids were be those fused into a solid mass of heavy elements, which would make smelting it down into in raw elements prohibitive. (Anyone have a 200,000 ton smelting furnace lying around?) Also, it's no easy task 'cutting' a hard-element asteroid/comet, especially since those 'elements' are likely radioactive, contains large quantities of diamonds, and many elements which we have no concept of, since we've never observed them in their native state.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Radagast
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

ive, not just due to transportations costs of an interplanetary vehicle, but because the most likely asteroids were be those fused into a solid mass of heavy elements, which would make smelting it down into in raw elements prohibitive. (Anyone have a 200,000 ton smelting furnace lying around?) Also, it's no easy task 'cutting' a hard-element asteroid/comet, especially since those 'elements' are likely radioactive, contains large quantities of diamonds, and many elements which we have no concept of, since we've never observed them in their native state.

We are talking about a far future story about a civilization that has achieved faster than light travel. I don't think cost limitations based on real world technology are remotely applicable.

Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@Vincent Berg

All you need is a massive array of solar mirrors and enough maple syrup to bribe aliens into launching them for you. Flat Cats are optional.
Ringo & Heinlein if you don't get the references.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

I assume advances in mining technology make gold and other precious metals less costly to mine and that and things like asteroid mining make it less scarce.

IMO gold is like the Kardashians, famous for being famous. In future there are likely to be elements with far stronger claims to be a currency base eg Cobalt, Lithium, Uranium.

AJ

Replies:   Keet
Keet ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

IMO gold is like the Kardashians, famous for being famous. In future there are likely to be elements with far stronger claims to be a currency base eg Cobalt, Lithium, Uranium.

I doubt gold will lose it's currency base. It's just one of multiple already established 'currencies' among silver, platinum, etc. Gold also has the 'advantage' that it is unlikely a huge cache will be found on asteroids so no sudden lost scarcity.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@Keet

I doubt gold will loose it's currency base.

I think it will fade into irrelevance, like Sterling.

Pernickety corrections: I doubt gold will lose its currency base.

AJ

Keet ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

@richardshagrin

I have a far future sci-fi story where the monetary system is based on grams of gold. where 1g = around $1


I'm probably going to regret asking, but where the hell did you get that?

"g" denotes 1 gram, the weight unit. The gravitational constant would be noted as "G", the uppercase letter. I assume that's where your confusion about richards statement came from. As for the value, it's a sci-fi story so he can set it to anything he wants.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@richardshagrin

If a rocket accelerates at 1g

A manned rocket with only 1 gram of thrust isn't going very far.

Crumbly Writer ๐Ÿšซ

@BlacKnight

I can't recall ever feeling the need to mention a specific price in any story I've ever written. More important than actual numbers is what the cost means to the character, and I don't find that listing numbers is particularly helpful in that regard.

Rather than actually quoting current prices, why not show an exclamation in dialogue (ex: "Are you kidding me? That's 50% more than it was ten years ago!")

Replies:   LupusDei  madnige
LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ

@Crumbly Writer

"Are you kidding me? That's 50% more than it was ten years ago!"

Great, but to remain pure and not mention any exact prices you would have to intentionally exclude or obscure the original statement this is the response for. While you can possibly get away with that, making it seem natural and not artificially strained may be challenging.

Actually, dialogue like that is of those cases where I see numbers to enter and rather unavoidable.

And I don't know how it's around you, but in my experience people tend to drop numbers in mundane dialogue rather frequently. The exact numbers may not even matter, not even to the ongoing dialogue really, but getting rid of them would likely render the dialogue unnatural.

madnige ๐Ÿšซ

@Crumbly Writer

(ex: "Are you kidding me? That's 50% more than it was ten years ago!")

-- but that's only 4% p.a. inflation, and we've had much higher than that.

irvmull ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

If you're writing about a uniformed attendant filling your 1957 Chevy with gas, checking the oil, washing the windshield, and charging you two bucks for ten gallons, then a reader with average intelligence should be able to guess you aren't talking about the year 2021.

Sometimes, it is impossible to lower your standards far enough to accommodate the willfully ignorant. Why bother, they probably won't understand the rest of the story either.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@irvmull

Sometimes, it is impossible to lower your standards far enough to accommodate the willfully ignorant.

There is a lot of that going around. Taking comments or lines in a story out of context has damn near became an Olympic sport.

Replies:   elevated_subways
elevated_subways ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

If I have a story set in the past (often the 1970s or '80s but sometimes earlier) I will usually mention when it is taking place. If it's in some generic modern America, then - well, I'm pretty sure I won't be around in twenty years! Anybody reading the story then should know it's set around 2018 to 2021. Everybody knows when The Great Gatsby or The Grapes of Wrath or The Day of the Locust were written, and they know (or should know!) that was once contemporary has now become a period piece.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  Remus2
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@elevated_subways

they know (or should know!) that was once contemporary has now become a period piece.

What he said.

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@elevated_subways

and they know (or should know!) that was once contemporary has now become a period piece

Agreed, but it doesn't stop the butt hurt army from taking it out of context when they are hunting for victims.

Replies:   elevated_subways
elevated_subways ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

When Don DeLillo starts Underworld with Bobby Thompson's home run at the Polo Grounds, I don't think he actually says that it's October 3, 1951. I don't have a copy of the book, so I can't confirm that. I know that he then bounces around a lot in the 1950s to the 1990s, but not in chronological order. I don't know how he handles the time transitions. I should just read the damn book and find out already.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@elevated_subways

I've no idea as I haven't read that book.

Replies:   elevated_subways
elevated_subways ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

I've read the reviews. It's sort of like Cliff Notes in college (or high school?); it allows one to seem more well-read than is actually the case. Lots of people talk about Melville, or Oswald Spengler, or whoever without ever picking up one of their books.

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