Forum: Author Hangout

Poor writing - Best Seller

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

I just finished "The Last Mile" by David Baldacci. I really enjoyed the story. Couldn't put it down. However…

There were two major writing "style" issues that I found annoying:

1. He starts many (almost all?) chapters with dialogue. Then after reading the dialogue you find out which character is speaking and where he is and who he's with. I believe that to be poor writing. First establish the time, place, and who, and then have the character speak. Once I learned that I went back and reread the dialogue.

2. We've discussed this too much, but he uses every verb imaginable instead of a simple "he said." I cringed every time I read one. And there were so many situations where he didn't need the dialogue tag if he would simply have had some action prior to the dialogue. It would have been easier to read, stronger, and clearer.

Just ranting. The novel could have been so much more enjoyable. Could have been 5 stars instead of the 4 I gave it.

ystokes 🚫

I am with you 100% on number 1. It can really kill a story when you have to keep going back over a passage to make sense over what was being said.

awnlee jawking 🚫

Then after reading the dialogue you find out which character is speaking and where he is and who he's with.

That's a technique intended to impress highbrow critics rather than readers.

The last two David Baldacci books I read left me cold. He relied on deus ex machina type events for the protagonist to succeed. As Shania Twain sang, 'That don't impress me much'.

AJ

Remus2 🚫

There are a multitude of best sellers that were panned by the so called "critics." It's my opinion that some authors get a bit to anal about the technical end of writing, which ends up as a detriment to the story.

Replies: Switch Blayde PotomacBob

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@Remus2

some authors get a bit too anal about the technical end of writing

I'm one of them and, yes, it does interfere with the simple enjoyment of the story.

But not only when the author does something I believe is wrong. I now pay attention to how the author writes, his style. I learn from it. What to do and what not to do. The analysis is automatic.

The number one advice authors give to new authors is "Read, read, read." That's why they say to read. To learn.

But writing isn't as much fun either. More rewarding, satisfying, but not as much fun. I used to simply write for the enjoyment. Now I take into account many things I've learned over the years. It's more work now. But, as I said, more rewarding.

Replies: Pixy Remus2

Pixy 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I now pay attention to how the author writes, his style

That's a bit sexist :P Wouldn't "author writes, THEIR style" be a bit more gender friendly :)

Replies: Remus2 bk69

Remus2 🚫

@Pixy

That's a bit sexist

No more sexist than a female author stating "her style." I don't see either as sexist; more along the lines of self identification than sexist.

bk69 🚫

@Pixy

That's a bit sexist :P Wouldn't "author writes, THEIR style" be a bit more gender friendly :)

Possibly more 'gender friendly' but definitely less correct. 'He/his' is the correct pronoun for 'gender indeterminate/unknown' in the English language. You want to talk about 'sexist' pronouns? 'Elles' is plural female only. If every man alive died, except one, the pronoun to describe the Earth's population would be 'Ils'. One man plus billions of females means the male plural is used. But to the original point, 'they/their' is plural, not singular. One can always use the pronoun 'one' to avoid gendered pronouns, but that gets awkward to use in certain structures.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@bk69

'He/his' is the correct pronoun for 'gender indeterminate/unknown' in the English language

I don't think that's correct. I think that's why people use "they" in English because English nouns aren't gender specific.

I was once in a Mexican restaurant and the owner came over to welcome my wife and me. He addressed us as "Senores." I said we aren't both men. He said in Spanish when it's mixed genders they use the male.

Btw, how come actresses refer to themselves as actors?

Replies: bk69 bk69 Dominions Son

bk69 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Btw, how come actresses refer to themselves as actors?

Because the profession ('actor') is what they're discussing. The existence of a specific term to describe the female subset of the larger set doesn't change the larger set.

bk69 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I don't think that's correct. I think that's why people use "they" in English because English nouns aren't gender specific.

Actually, it's correct English. Lots of people use incorrect English because they worry too much about hurt feelings rather than revealing their lack of knowledge.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I don't think that's correct. I think that's why people use "they" in English because English nouns aren't gender specific.

Some people use "they" as a singular gender neutral. It's old, going back to the days of Shakespeare. However it is not today, and never has been broadly accepted enough to be considered the rule.

On the other hand, the singular "they" is popular enough that the converse of gender neutral use of the traditional singular pronouns can't be considered the rule either.

Quite frankly people will probably still be arguing over this in another 300 years unless someone comes up with a separate gender neutrals singular pronoun for people that manages to gain some traction.

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@Dominions Son

Quite frankly people will probably still be arguing over this in another 300 years unless someone comes up with a separate gender neutrals singular pronoun for people that manages to gain some traction.

Even that wouldn't be enough, what with the fifteen different genders certain types want us to all recognize and treat as equally valid and typical.

note to self: upon becoming evil overlord, make sure that new official language has no genders for any words, including pronouns.

Replies: Mushroom irvmull

Mushroom 🚫

@bk69

note to self: upon becoming evil overlord, make sure that new official language has no genders for any words, including pronouns.

I had a lot of fun pulling somebodies nose when I said "el bote" to them, and they were big into that nonsense.

She got upset, and said that boats are female, so I should have said "la bote". I just grinned and said maybe the boat identifies as male. And if gender was such an artificial construct, why was she upset about my using the wrong one in Spanish?

After all, I have never heard anybody call a famous song "La Condor Pasa".

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@Mushroom

She got upset, and said that boats are female

1. Ships, not boats.
2. ISTR the captain of Bismark insisting on the masculine be used to describe Bismark. (Possibly there was some sort of compensation issue there...)

Replies: Mushroom

Mushroom 🚫

@bk69

ISTR the captain of Bismark insisting on the masculine be used to describe Bismark. (Possibly there was some sort of compensation issue there...)

There is a difference there in culture mostly. In the US, a ship may be named the "John F. Kennedy", but we still consider the ship itself as a "she".

And I was talking about the word "boat", not a specific one. For all you know, I was talking about a dingy or submarine, which are indeed "boats".

irvmull 🚫

@bk69

note to self: upon becoming evil overlord, make sure that new official language has no genders for any words, including pronouns.

When we see a bug, lizard, or snake, we refer to it as "it".

That's because it is difficult and/or dangerous to attempt a physical examination of these creatures, and they don't have the intelligence to make a rational decision regarding a "gender preference".

The same may be true of the creatures who inhabit Evergreen College...

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@irvmull

Evergreen College

"The Evergreen State College
Liberal arts college in Olympia, Washington
The Evergreen State College is a public liberal arts and sciences college in Olympia, Washington. Founded in 1967, it offers a non-traditional undergraduate curriculum in which students have the option to design their own study toward a degree or follow a pre-determined path of study. Wikipedia"

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@richardshagrin

"The Evergreen State College
Liberal arts college in Olympia, Washington
The Evergreen State College is a public liberal arts and sciences college in Olympia, Washington. Founded in 1967, it offers a non-traditional undergraduate curriculum in which students have the option to design their own study toward a degree or follow a pre-determined path of study. Wikipedia"

Ayep, and many past graduates who graduated before they changed to that system are now upset because they're finding people are regarding diplomas from Evergreen as less useful than toilet paper due to the lack of formal structure and requirements in line with the rest of the USA.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Any degree that ends in "studies" = a highly motivated frying machine operator. Motivated due to the need to eat and pay off the massive student loans.

Replies: oyster50

oyster50 🚫

@Remus2

@Ernest Bywater

Any degree that ends in "studies" = a highly motivated frying machine operator. Motivated due to the need to eat and pay off the massive student loans.

They also end up in the bureaucracy in large numbers. The old saw "The 'poor' don't create jobs' is no longer true. There are thousands employed by the government and 'charities' who exist to service the poor, often in t he same manner that the farmer's bull services a cow.

Replies: madnige Remus2

madnige 🚫
Updated:

@oyster50

There are thousands employed by the government and 'charities' who exist to service the poor, often in the same manner that the farmer's bull services a cow.

That's going in my quotes file!

ETA: there it is, just under

It's like pouring water into a bucket and telling it to make sure it fills in the corners

(Bill'n'Hailey)

Remus2 🚫

@oyster50

There are thousands employed by the government and 'charities' who exist to service the poor, often in t he same manner that the farmer's bull services a cow.

Often sans any form of lubricant.

Replies: irvmull

irvmull 🚫

@Remus2

There are thousands employed by the government and 'charities' who exist to service the poor,

If you ever want to be really disillusioned and disappointed in people in general, volunteer at one of those "charities which serve the poor".

Replies: Dominions Son Remus2

Dominions Son 🚫

@irvmull

If you ever want to be really disillusioned and disappointed in people in general, volunteer at one of those "charities which serve the poor".

Hmm... Whom do you refer to as the source of disappointment? The people who run those "charities", or the people they claim to be "helping"?

Replies: irvmull

irvmull 🚫

@Dominions Son

Hmm... Whom do you refer to as the source of disappointment? The people who run those "charities", or the people they claim to be "helping"?

Both.

Remus2 🚫

@irvmull

If you ever want to be really disillusioned and disappointed in people in general, volunteer at one of those "charities which serve the poor".

In my past, I've done just that. There are some good people in some of those organizations, but the organizations themselves were so straddled with incompetence, and sometimes malfeasance, that the poor people were not helped much, if at all.

Remus2 🚫

@Switch Blayde

But writing isn't as much fun either. More rewarding, satisfying, but not as much fun. I used to simply write for the enjoyment. Now I take into account many things I've learned over the years. It's more work now. But, as I said, more rewarding.

Back a couple of decades ago, I used to write for enjoyment. However, as my career advanced, I had to write more and more technical dry reports/findings.

This last year, I've tried to start up writing for enjoyment again. I've started and stopped several stories. On read back, I realized the stories sucked. If I can see it, any reader would as well.

I've come to realize every effort was being hampered by my back brain checking and rechecking the technical elements to the point of distraction. By technical I don't mean grammar and structure, but rather physics, math, engineering and the like.

I've shelved any writing until I can get through reading multiple stories without my back brain screaming for a correction. Effectively I am deprogramming a couple of decades of habit.

As such, I can clearly see where it would be far more difficult for someone that writes professionally to back off of issues they are programmed to flag.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@Remus2

I can clearly see where it would be far more difficult for someone that writes professionally to back off of issues they are programmed to flag.

I guess when I started I wrote porn. All I cared about was putting the characters in sexual situations.

But now I worry about character development and plot. And description. I always have to go back during editing to add description. But the most difficult part of writing now for me is not to head-hop. I also fret over every word, especially verbs.

The bottom line for me is, it's not only telling a story, but how the story is told. That's work. The storytelling is easy.

PotomacBob 🚫

@Remus2

It's my opinion that some authors get a bit to anal about the technical end of writing, which ends up as a detriment to the story.

By "the technical end," are you talking about rules of writing (commas, spelling, etc.) or about that the writer includes too many details of technical subject matter? Or something else I haven't thought of?

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@PotomacBob

In that context, Commas, spelling, sentence structure, adherence to style guides ad nauseam. All the things a professor would gig you on in a Lit etc class.

Mushroom 🚫

Way back in 1969, 27 journalists decided to pull a prank. They wrote a terrible book on purpose, each one writing a different chapter. Full of sex and infidelity, including the wife having sex with a Rabbi and mobster.

Harrold Robbins and other popular authors of the time were their inspiration, and in that they were able to do it.

And the joke was on everybody when it was on the New York Times Bestseller List for 13 weeks, and in 1975 a porn movie was made from the book.

Replies: PotomacBob Remus2

PotomacBob 🚫

@Mushroom

Okay, I'll be the one to ask: What was the name of that book?

Replies: Ernest Bywater Mushroom

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@PotomacBob

Okay, I'll be the one to ask: What was the name of that book?

It was probably 'Washington Confidential.'

Replies: PotomacBob

PotomacBob 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater
11/27/2020, 12:01:22 AM

@PotomacBob

Okay, I'll be the one to ask: What was the name of that book?

It was probably 'Washington Confidential.'

You may be right. But Mushroom described the book as having 27 authors, and Washington Confidential seems to have only two.

Replies: Ernest Bywater

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@PotomacBob

You may be right. But Mushroom described the book as having 27 authors, and Washington Confidential seems to have only two.

Sorry, Bob, I know it's not the story mentioned, I was trying to make a joke which appears to have fallen flat because I didn't know there was a such a story by that title.

Mushroom 🚫

@PotomacBob

Okay, I'll be the one to ask: What was the name of that book?

I am sorry, I just realized I forgot to name it.

"Naked Came the Stranger". I was not trying to tease, I actually thought I had included the name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Came_the_Stranger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Came_the_Stranger_(film)

Credited to "Penelope Ashe", it was in reality Newsday journalist Mike McGrady and 23 other journalists pulling a prank. A year later he wrote a book called "Stranger Than Naked, or How to Write Dirty Books for Fun and Profit", talking about how they had done it as a joke.

And in 1975 after the movie came out (which they had nothing to do with), he and 16 others went to a screening. WHen some at the end applauded and asked for the author, all 16 of them stood up.

Remus2 🚫

@Mushroom

That sounds like a good experiment for SOL.

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

We could always use she/he/it.

Of course, that's awkward, so we remove redundant characters, and refer to everyone regardless of sex (or lack thereof) as shit.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Poor writing - Best Seller

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