I found 'Sacajawea' in a list of Native American girls' names, allegedly meaning 'little bird'. Is there an equivalent name meaning 'big bird'? Bonus points if its first letter is early in the English alphabet.
I found 'Sacajawea' in a list of Native American girls' names, allegedly meaning 'little bird'. Is there an equivalent name meaning 'big bird'? Bonus points if its first letter is early in the English alphabet.
The daughter of a Shoshone chief, Sacagawea's name means "boat puller" or "bird woman" (if spelled as Sakakawea). She was a Shoshone interpreter best known for serving as a member of the Lewis and Clark expedition into the American West — and for being the only woman on the famous excursion
Thank you.
Sacagawea seems to be the most common English spelling and 'bird woman' the most popular translation followed by 'boat puller'. That's good enough for me, although I'm not currently inclined to change from the Sacajawea spelling.
The Ojibwe (AKA Chippewa) have a legend of a chiefs widow named Big Bird. I'm only vaguely familiar with them, so I can't pin down an answer past that. There may be a Tribe somewhere that has a direct result beyond that, but I'm unaware of them if that is true.
Contact the Ojibwe, most nation/tribes are fairy open with such information to those that express an interest.
Are the names descriptive in plains tribes? Or perhaps insider teasing or lore? And can change with time? Eg a girl called Little Bird might become called Big Bird if she grows into a plump woman?
The Ojibwe weren't exactly a 'plains tribe'. Still aren't. And I've never heard of the names being 'descriptive' although given human nature, I'm sure some people were referred to by derivatives/bastardizations of their names that had been changed to be insulting (although what they would have considered insulting might not be what you'd think).
They can be, and are frequently descriptive, but not related to physical characteristics usually. Usually it's more about the habits and personality of the person in question.
The Ojibwe weren't exactly a 'plains tribe'.
Not at all, even though some did migrate down to Oklahoma. But predominantly they are from upper Michigan and Minnesota, and throughout Southern Canada.
And even that is not a tribe, as much as a family of tribes. With the Council of the Three Fires making up the majority of the members. That is the Chippewa, Odawa, and the Pottawatomi.
But their language is very different than the Shoshone, Lakota, Apache, or any other tribes. And one thing any author needs to realize before deciding to put Indians into their story, is to at least try and have them make sense. Unless it is somebody like me, and 2 generations removed from the reservation.
Myself, in one story I really wanted to include Indians in the story, so specifically placed it in an area right outside 2 reservations. But I knew a lot of Shoshone growing up, so only had to do a little research to learn the differences between those in Eastern Idaho from Western Idaho.
Otherwise an author is taking a risk that somebody might read it, and laugh or get ticked off. Having somebody that is say Shoshone speak words from the Lakota would likely tick off any that know the difference. Like setting a story in Warsaw, and having the characters saying words in Macedonian. Or giving an ethnically and locationally French character an obviously German name.
I told people in the past, to think of the tribes as Europe. We can get just as upset if people try to mix us all up together into a big pot and label us all as "Indians", just as many in Europe would get just as offended.
And I saw that in one branch of my family. Want to piss off one branch? Call them "Swedes". They are from Norway, and even 100+ years later take that as an insult.
Call them "Swedes". They are from Norway, and even 100+ years later take that as an insult.
I had a roommate in college who was a Swede, and it gave me an easy excuse to trot out all of my 'bad' Swedish accents and apply all of the ancient Swedish insults my Norwegian ancestors (basically just my grandmother) recalled. But he had enough of his own insults, that we were fairly evenly matched!
Are the names descriptive in plains tribes? Or perhaps insider teasing or lore? And can change with time? Eg a girl called Little Bird might become called Big Bird if she grows into a plump woman?
To my knowledge, no. Keep in mind I'm Cherokee, so the plains tribes are not as well known to me.
As for meaning, they are usually either lore or characteristic based. Walking Fawn for instance would be a bit of lore and characteristic based.
I am unaware of any tribe that changes the person's name, except where their role in the tribe and or standing in the tribe changes.
I am unaware of any tribe that changes the person's name, except where their role in the tribe and or standing in the tribe changes.
Usually, that would include the child/adult transition, yes?
Are the names descriptive in plains tribes? Or perhaps insider teasing or lore? And can change with time? Eg a girl called Little Bird might become called Big Bird if she grows into a plump woman?
In most cases (that I'm aware of, at least) most native American names aren't based on general descriptions, but on specific animals (i.e. little bird would more commonly be 'Sparrow' or 'Robin', while Big Bird would be Eagle or Falcon, or more typically an offset, like "Swift Eagle" or "Devious Crow").
Once you've read several ancient tribal books or legends, you'll get a feel for how the names are applied.
In most cases (that I'm aware of, at least) most native American names aren't based on general descriptions, but on specific animals (i.e. little bird would more commonly be 'Sparrow' or 'Robin', while Big Bird would be Eagle or Falcon, or more typically an offset, like "Swift Eagle" or "Devious Crow").
Once you've read several ancient tribal books or legends, you'll get a feel for how the names are applied.
And it can vary a lot depending on tribe.
Many would see a person with 2 or more names. A descriptive one normally based on a parent, then when older one acquired either through behavior, actions, or a kind of spirit quest. And because most were small family groupings, other names were added as the equivalent of last names.
Or even as part of the clan affiliation in some tribes. My own ancestors in the 1800's picked the last name "Wolf", which was a clan affiliation in the tribe. So while this is fictional, you might have somebody called say "Walks a lot, son of White Deer and Limping Bear, member of the Fox Clan, of the Long River tribe of the Lakota". Which in the 1800's era of "Civilizing" simply was reduced by their children to "Bob Fox, of the Sioux".
We even saw that in Europe. Look at a lot of our last names. Fletcher, Cooper, Wright, Smith, Thatcher, Carpenter, Driver, Cook, Mason, Boyar, and more. Each and every one of those is a job. More than likely started as say "John the Mason", then simply became "John Mason".
Trying to trace my family into Norway was frustrating for my dad. He would get maybe 3 generations in, and it would descend into "John Franks's son" or "Inga Carl's Daughter", and just petered out.
Once you identify an ancestor in Norway in the 1800s, its expected that you'll be able to trace the tree back to the 1600s because of the excellent record keeping. Details https://www.arkivverket.no/en/find-your-ancestors/tracing-your-ancestry
In most cases (that I'm aware of, at least) most native American names aren't based on general descriptions, but on specific animals (i.e. little bird would more commonly be 'Sparrow' or 'Robin', while Big Bird would be Eagle or Falcon, or more typically an offset, like "Swift Eagle" or "Devious Crow").
Once you've read several ancient tribal books or legends, you'll get a feel for how the names are applied.
Ancient tribal books? Umm there were no 'books' prior to European invasion.
As for being named after animals, most NA were keen observers of nature. The behavioral characteristics were used in naming. There is no direct translation into Euro languages to capture the difference, so we end up with "Big Bird" or "Walking Fawn" as a result.
Ancient tribal books? Umm there were no 'books' prior to European invasion.
As for being named after animals, most NA were keen observers of nature. The behavioral characteristics were used in naming. There is no direct translation into Euro languages to capture the difference, so we end up with "Big Bird" or "Walking Fawn" as a result.
No "invasion". Literally a continuation of all of human history until quite recently actually.
As for "names", once again that is fairly recent in human history. And many may well be "names" as we know of them. But most were still small groups of small nomadic family groupings, still trying to recover from the collapse of their civilization before the Europeans even arrived.
Most do not understand the scope of what the NA people at the time that they arrived were going through. A huge civilization had just collapsed a generation before, and a large exodus and scattering was going on that left all of them tribes in chaos. Some just wanting to be left alone, some wanting to make new friends. And yet others wanting to attack anything they saw.
To which "huge" civilization are you referring? You're seemingly describing the S.W. nations, but didn't state so.
As for invasion, your definition is definitely different from others.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/invasion
By definition, it was an invasion.
To which "huge" civilization are you referring? You're seemingly describing the S.W. nations, but didn't state so.
Then you need to look into the Mississippian Culture.
And yes, a great many of the SW tribes started in the Mississippi Valley. You are clearly thinking of the Puebloans. They had relatively little influence outside of their immediate areas. As opposed to the Mississippians, which dominated most of the Eastern Plans to the Atlantic.
And no, by definition it was a migration. I could not care what some dictionary says. Until relatively recently such was common. Are migrants wanting to enter the US an "invasion"?
Are migrants wanting to enter the US an "invasion"?
At least as much as the British Invasion in the '60s.
But really... are they looking to take over? If yes, then invasion; if no, then not.
But really... are they looking to take over? If yes, then invasion; if no, then not.
So they are not looking to live here?
Seems that your definition is based on politics.
I suggest studying about human migrations.
And no, by definition it was a migration. I could not care what some dictionary says. Until relatively recently such was common. Are migrants wanting to enter the US an "invasion"?
I guess if you're going to make up your own definition, you can call it whatever you want.
I guess if you're going to make up your own definition, you can call it whatever you want.
OK then, what is the difference between migration, immigration, and invasion?
When trying to discuss things dispassionately and clinically, such loaded words and phrases have no place in the lexicon, unless they specifically apply.
And the vast majority who moved from Europe to the Americas, or who then moved West was not "invasion", it was migration.
Hell, I guess when my ancestors moved down from Canada to what is now Illinois, that was an invasion also.
I found 'Sacajawea' in a list of Native American girls' names, allegedly meaning 'little bird'. Is there an equivalent name meaning 'big bird'? Bonus points if its first letter is early in the English alphabet.
Of course, this also begs the question which tribe? And even then, which area of which tribe?
First of all, most names in Indian Tribes are not like names most people think of. There is no real names like Dave, Jack, or Karen. What you normally have is a combination of various things that is used as a name, sometimes descriptive sometimes not. Sometimes connected to their family and clan, sometimes not.
And in some tribes you even have multiple names for the same person. A "Common Name", a "Tribal Name", and a "Secret Name". But first, you really have to give at least a tribe or area before any kind of name can be selected.
There's a dead tree series I've read.
The male lead's father was Welsh, his mother was Native American (Salish, specifically).
In one of the books he mentions that his maternal grandfather who was a shaman sometimes called him "Running Eagle".
And even that is not a tribe, as much as a family of tribes. With the Council of the Three Fires making up the majority of the members. That is the Chippewa, Odawa, and the Pottawatomi.
Yeah. I've spent a bit of time around a few tribes.
Oh, there's one place I'd expect German names in a French territory (other than soldiers in Paris, that is)... in the Alsace region. That land got claimed over and over more than Kashmir.
Oh, there's one place I'd expect German names in a French territory (other than soldiers in Paris, that is)... in the Alsace region. That land got claimed over and over more than Kashmir.
True, but in most of the country, it would not be very common.
(When I was asking about names in the plains tribes, it was straight after pointing out that Sacagawea was the daughter of a Shoshone chief. Apologies for any offense caused.
Fwiw, I can't ground the whole "Norwegians offended to be mistaken for Swedes" thing. There are idiots everywhere but it's not a thing. I've actually had some major foot in mouth mistakes talking to Irish youth during the troubles but even then I don't think it risked lasting offense.)
I can't ground the whole "Norwegians offended to be mistaken for Swedes" thing.
IIRC, there is, however, a bit of good-natured humor.
Swede: Did you know that the Norwegen army just ordered 2,000 septic tanks?
Friend: Why did they do that?
Swede: When they learn how to drive them they are going to invade Sweden.
Swede: Did you know that the Norwegen army just ordered 2,000 septic tanks?
Friend: Why did they do that?
Swede: When they learn how to drive them they are going to invade Sweden.
Reminds me of an old joke from the 1950's:
Army Surplus store newspaper ad:
Sale on Italian Army surplus Carcano rifles. Excellent condition - only dropped once.
Army Surplus store newspaper ad:
Sale on Italian Army surplus Carcano rifles. Excellent condition - only dropped once.
I always heard it as French Fusil rifles
Fwiw, I can't ground the whole "Norwegians offended to be mistaken for Swedes" thing. There are idiots everywhere but it's not a thing.
Actually, as the Norwegians were a pillaging society and the Swedes were often coastal fishermen and/or farmers, there was a long history of conflicts between the two, and while most never took it personally, most can roll off a whole list of ancient insults that they've learned over a lifetime.
the Norwegians were a pillaging society and the Swedes were often coastal fishermen and/or farmers
Eh, umm, actually it was all much the same.
Those along the Atlantic coast (modern day Norway, Denmark, west bit of Sweden) mostly went west. They took much of what is now Ireland, England and a chunk of France. Those frenchified Normans later went and invaded England in 1066. Oh, and they went down into France and Northern Africa after that too.).
And those on the Baltic side mostly went east, taking Russia and right down into what is now the Ukraine.
Farming was important to all of them, and their names actually encoded the "farms". Link above to genealogy in Norway explains that, a thousand years later.
It's a really fascinating subject :)
Farming was important to all of them, and their names actually encoded the "farms".
My mother's family was named Solibakke, which I believe means "sunny fields". Sounds like a farm to me. Her mother's maiden name was Wall. Walda Victoria Wall. She was careful to use her middle name, or at least the Initial "V" because she didn't want to be Walda Wall, like a carpet.
named Solibakke, which I believe means "sunny fields". Sounds like a farm to me
Fields or, perhaps, hill. Sunny hill.
A farm in Norway https://mapcarta.com/31201300
All the Nordic countries have their respective Englishman Irishman Scotsman jokes, usually the same jokes with the parts switched.
But hate? That's laughable.
Swedes keep suggesting they invade Norway and then surrender.
Swedes keep suggesting they invade Norway and then surrender.
That was the plot line of an old Peter Sellers movie, except the idea was for a tiny country to declare war on the USA, then surrender and get reparations aid.
Sounds like US same state football rivalries.
That's the magic of such insults. It's just as easy applying Polish jokes to the Swedes (or Norwegians) as it is to recall and actual historical insult. But they're generally good natured, as few of us have any clue of the ancient roots of such conflicts.