Forum: Author Hangout

German infantry was basically designed as a squad to support the MG42.

Yeah, there was a team. Someone fed the ammo while someone manned the gun. Others carried extra ammo and stuff. That's why Boyd was surprised there was only one German. I don't explain why there was only one German. There weren't a lot of Germans left in the town.

I read 1,800 in one place and 1,200 in several places so I went with the 1,200.

As to not feeling the shrapnel, it was pretty deep. You don't find out about that later. So maybe the adrenalin kept him going.

Thanks.

especially because we have no way of knowing what the story codes are before we click.

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

If you post an excerpt from your story without the story codes the implication is that anyone reading it is down with that.

Yours is about war. So if graphic violence, people getting their arms blown off, etc is not my bag - I wouldn't know that until I click. It's totally not btw.

This site literally has story codes so that we can filter on stuff we are down with (heads being blown off, head being given, etc) and filter stuff we are not.

So if there is a precedent "Hey guys, read this preview of my story and tell me if it is accurate" I would think other people can do it as well?

Rather than start it here - maybe we should ask the Admin to make a forum for story feedback? There may even be one called "Story Discussion and Feedback" - just a thought.

If you post an excerpt from your story without the story codes the implication is that anyone reading it is down with that.

Tags = fiction, military, historical, war

None of which I would include in the completed story. So anyone reading this scene wouldn't be advised of those tags. And I don't understand why that would make a difference.

it's simply "a grenade." Phosphorus, shrapnel,

Thanks.

fragmentation or frag for short, not shrapnel.

I like "frag." Thanks.

This would be true for supersonic rounds, which most anything military in the WWII era would be. The exceptions would be side arms, and not necessarily all of those, and or sub-machine guns (because they fire pistol ammo).

But he specified the MG 42, not a sub-machinegun, it fires a large caliber supersonic round.

Also, because mortar rounds are subsonic, unless you were right on top of them you would hear the explosion, and not likely the delivery as they are not increidbly loud.

That was how I originally had it. Lazeez has real-life experience with war and he said you hear the mortar round being fired. That's why I changed it. I don't know if it whistles in the air, but I thought that was good entertainment. But Lazeez and others said you would hear the mortar being fired before the explosion.

That was how I originally had it. Lazeez has real-life experience with war and he said you hear the mortar round being fired. That's why I changed it. I don't know if it whistles in the air, but I thought that was good entertainment. But Lazeez and others said you would hear the mortar being fired before the explosion.

60mm mortar, yes. Those fire on a much more shallow trajectory, and can actually be fired at ranges as closest as 65-70 meters. While you can technically fire an 8cm mortar at 100 meters, you are so damned close to the danger area, that is never really done. Hence, my suggestion of sw2apping the 8cm mortar with the 5cm mortar. That is really more accurate with what such a unit would run across.

And yea, 10 years in the Infantry in the Marines here, over 20 years total in the military, multiple deployments. Is more an issue of the specific mortar picked than mortars in general.

If they are still deep in South Italy, then the German Army really does not belong. That was the Italian Army, with support from German tank and air units. The German Army itself did not really get involved until they reached central Italy. The LXXVI Panzer Corps, consisting of the 16thk, 26th, and the 29th Panzer Divisions were really the only Germans involved in that phase of the Invasion of Italy. There was little to no German Infantry involved in that phase. Certainly not holding positions, at most maybe a company sized unit attached to the Admin and Maintenance sections as security. With once again, 5cm mortars (maybe).

And a fortified position with sandbags would have had the machineguns use their tripods, not bipods. That is used for improvised positions, not where there are already positions prepared.

I am honestly not trying to nitpick you, just bring it more in keeping with what was really going on.

I am honestly not trying to nitpick you

Nitpick away. That's what I requested.

I changed it to simply be a mortar.

I needed the machine gunner to rest the barrel on the top of the sandbags so I took the bipod out. I know there probably would have been a space in the sandbags for him to shoot through, but I needed my hero to get a clear shot so I had the machine gunner shooting over the sandbags. He was also all alone which would be odd, but there weren't many Germans left it that town. Most had pulled back to a more strategic town. This is not a war story. It just takes place during WWII. Soon the hero will be wounded and sent back home. That's when the story really begins.

Mussolini was already disposed by then (July 1943) and the Italian army surrendered to the Allies. On Oct 13, 1943, Italy declared war on Germany. "On the day of Italy's surrender, Hitler launched Operation Axis, the occupation of Italy. As German troops entered Rome, General Badoglio and the royal family fled to Brindisi, in southeastern Italy, to set up a new antifascist government."

Rome is pretty far south and the Germans occupied it.

"On October 13, Badoglio set into motion the next stage of his agreement with Eisenhower, the full cooperation of Italian troops in the Allied operation to capture Rome from the Germans. It was extremely slow going, described by one British general as 'slogging up Italy.'"

So I assumed the Allies had to fight the Germans as they continued north, kicking them out of Italy. Soon after the exerpt I posted, I have this dialogue exchange between the hero and sergeant:

"Just a flesh wound. I'll live. Sarge, what's so important about this town?"

"Ask the generals that, not me. All I know is we took Northern Africa and then Sicily. Now we need to take Italy, then liberate France, and then Germany.

I never mention the town by name. I didn't want to get the facts wrong. All I say is that it's in southern Italy. How far south? I'll let the reader use his imagination.

Thanks so much.

The German Army itself did not really get involved until they reached central Italy.

I was reading about Audie Murphy's campaigns. After the Allied soldiers took Sicily, they invaded Italy (early Sept, 1943). Murphy killed 5 German soldiers with a sub-machine gun at the Volturno River (so Germans were there). Then he moved on to Naples in Oct, 1943 where he killed German soldiers. Naples is south of Rome.

I was reading about Audie Murphy's campaigns. After the Allied soldiers took Sicily, they invaded Italy (early Sept, 1943). Murphy killed 5 German soldiers with a sub-machine gun at the Volturno River (so Germans were there). Then he moved on to Naples in Oct, 1943 where he killed German soldiers. Naples is south of Rome.

Not talking geographically, talking about the area names used for the campaign.

"Southern" refers to the immediate landing areas themselves. This was also the area that saw conflict from the day of the landings, until September when the Italians dropped their weapons and the Germans took over.

"Central" can be viewed both geographically and politically. But until 5 September the Germans stayed almost completely out of that conflict (other than their tanks, Italian tanks were worse than the Ronson was). But the fighting had moved up away from the landing sites by that time, and it was largely considered "Central Italy" when the Germans arrived, to replace the retreating Italians.

Not unlike Normandy. Once they moved inland a bit (roughly 100 miles), "Central France" took on the description most times, as "Western France" referred to the landing beaches themselves. As well as the large depots that were filling that area to be used for pushing the offensive.

Lazeez has real-life experience with war and he said you hear the mortar round being fired.

Mortars, especially in WW2 came in two basic types - those close to you (light mortars) and those far away (heavy mortars). With the very distant heavy mortars firing over an intervening hill and some distance it's unlikely you'll hear the discharge due to what's between you.

The heavy mortars will be directed onto target by a spotter close to you and will usually firing from 2 to 4 mile2 away with a lot of cover between you and them - these will usually be in the 120 mm or similar size. These will have a larger charge and heavier sound, but are unlikely to be heard by the recipients until they arrive. See and example below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granatwerfer_42

Troops are more likely to face the much more common light mortars in 50 to 80 mm sizes. These will range from a few hundred yards to about a mile with most firing at targets within half a mile of them. These the troops will easily hear being fired at them due to the close proximity of their use. Some examples are below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_cm_Granatwerfer_36

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kz_8_cm_GrW_42

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_cm_Granatwerfer_34

The heavy mortars were commonly used for support use of larger units while the smaller units were used by units at the point of combat. In the type of action Switch is discussing the most likely culprit is the 5 cm Granatwerfer 36 or the 8 cm Granatwerfer 34. Which it was would depend a lot of the date of the battle and if the unit using it was a top line or second line unit. While the 34 was more prolific it did need more resources to move around and use.

Mortars, especially in WW2 came in two basic types - those close to you (light mortars) and those far away (heavy mortars).

This was a close mortar. The American soldiers were walking up a road to enter the town. The machine gun and mortar nests were at the edge of town, one on either side of the road. When the machine gunner fired, the mortar guy fired.

This was a close mortar. The American soldiers were walking up a road to enter the town. The machine gun and mortar nests were at the edge of town, one on either side of the road. When the machine gunner fired, the mortar guy fired.

The mortars would not be on the edge of town however. Because they are indirect fire weapons, they would be well back inside of the town.

Think of it as if you had a 360 degree defense set up, and the O is the perimeter. The mortars would actually be a dot in the center of the O, nowhere near the edge. Odds are the soldiers assaulting such a position would not even see the mortars, the defenders would not want them to be easily taken out.

And Rome in that operation is considered to be Central Italy. Southern is the Boot and Heel (and maybe the football of Sicily).

The mortars would not be on the edge of town however. Because they are indirect fire weapons, they would be well back inside of the town.

I disagree with that, as it depends on how big the unit in the town is. If the German unit is most of a platoon, then yes the mortar would be deeper in the town with a spotter on the edge of town or high up calling the shots via radio - this requires two more soldiers to work the radios. However, if it was the just the mortar team plus a few soldiers left and they had orders to delay the Americans as much as possible, then the mortar would be set up either on the town approaches or in the fields close to the town approaches to be able to provide direct observation fire on the advancing Americans. As the mortar is the heavy unit the few remaining soldiers would be set up in close support with the sniper set up in an over-watch position.

However, if it was the just the mortar team plus a few soldiers left and they had orders to delay the Americans as much as possible,

That's what I was thinking the situation was. The intel was sort of right that the Germans pulled back, but they missed that a few were left at the edge of town where the Americans would come to slow them down. I'll need to put that tidbit in the story.

Everyone knows military intelligence never gets it completely right.

That's what I originally had. Then Ernest had a great idea to explain it. I ended up with (for now):

The sergeant gathered the remaining troops and gave them instructions. With the tank leading the way, they scattered in pairs like a swarm of bees, ducking into one house after the other, hunting down the enemy, ridding the town of the cancer. Every once in a while shots were fired and then there was silence again.

Thankfully, it was a small town. There weren't many Germans. Maybe the intel was sort of correct. Maybe the main force had moved north leaving a small contingent to ambush the Americans to slow them down, giving their comrades more time to dig in farther north. To prepare for a major battle. That would explain the single machine gunner. Either that or most had escaped from the other side of town, not choosing this nothing of a town to make a stand.

A tank! WTF?

Yeah, soon after the hero took out the two nests, the tank that had been broken came clanking up behind them.

I disagree with that, as it depends on how big the unit in the town is. If the German unit is most of a platoon, then yes the mortar would be deeper in the town with a spotter on the edge of town or high up calling the shots via radio - this requires two more soldiers to work the radios.

Actually, in WWII it is unlikely they would be using radios. In the German military, radios were rarely ever seen other than at a unit level. They certainly had nothing like the SCR-536 like the US used.

Because of the placement of prepared fighting positions, what they would have used instead would have been a field telephone, like the feldfernsprecher 33. The wire can be run in just a few minutes, or even placed in advance so they only need to take up their positions and go into operation.

Generally in this configuration, either an observer would have a connection to the unit CP who would relay the information to the mortar, or the observer would have 2 telephones, one to the CP and another to the mortar teams.

Out of all the WWII forces, only the US really had a large number of radios to throw them around very much. Most militaries were using either field telephones, or even semaphores (signal flags). In fact, the Soviet Army is well known in that for most of the war, their tanks had no radios. So semaphores were used extensively. It was only late in the war that they were able to provide most tanks at least a receiver so the command tank could talk to them. But if they needed to communicate back, the commander still got onto the turret and used flags.

Forward placement of a mortar is normally only used in the advance, not in a holding situation. Especially if they are going to be trying to throw a lot of rounds downrange as they only have a handful of them when not in a fixed position.

A 3 man team is only going to have from between 12 (8cm) and 18 (5cm) rounds if they are in such a setup, and they can burn through that in just a few minutes.

This is why if the location is a planned position (as the sandbagged machinegun positions suggest), then they would have a prepared position, with a small ammo bunker and more ammunition already placed in it for such use.

I am simply looking at this situation as an Infantryman myself. And if I already had a prepared position to fall back to, I would put the mortars in the center with the position already prepared, and cases of ammo already placed in a dug bunker. And a good team would have already laid out preselected targeting points, and removed the correct number of powder bags so the rounds could be put on target as quickly and accurately as possible. By having to throw down in an improvised position, they would loose all of those advantages.

I am simply looking at this situation as an Infantryman myself.

I was in an Offset Printing unit trained as a Process Photographer in AIT. There were only 3 Offset Printing units in the U.S. (NY, Hawaii, and one other place). When I finished AIT I learned my unit was disbanded and I was now in the Signal Corps.

No training came with that change. I guess I would have learned about radios and communication if there was training.

I am simply looking at this situation as an Infantryman myself. And if I already had a prepared position to fall back to, I would put the mortars in the center with the position already prepared, and cases of ammo already placed in a dug bunker. And a good team would have already laid out preselected targeting points, and removed the correct number of powder bags so the rounds could be put on target as quickly and accurately as possible. By having to throw down in an improvised position, they would loose all of those advantages.

That's exactly how a full platoon would set up. However, a reduced manpower unit wouldn't have the spare troops for the communications, be they field phone or radio or semaphore flags, then you get improvisation going on.

I have read a biographical account from WW2 where the remains of a unit told to delay the British advance in Europe set up operations on a rise a few hundred yards to the side of the road leading into a village as that gave them the best view of the road. All they had was five rifle men, two machine guns, and the mortar crew. They had a good field of fire and held the position until they ran out of ammunition, of which they didn't have a great deal to start with. The firefight lasted about twenty minutes then they surrendered.

And Rome in that operation is considered to be Central Italy.

LOL

From my travels, I think of Northern Italy and Southern Italy. Food is different. Weather is different. And I remember Rome was very hot so I think of it as southern. But, I got it. I changed it from a southern Italian town to "entering the Italian town from the south."

What I also got from your last comments was that I forgot about the Italian army that fought the Germans. Oh well.

Not "retreated to consolidate their forces", mor accurate would be say to "pull back"

Yeah.

A machine gun with the bipod extended does not point at the sky.

I took liberties with that. In fact, there would probably be a space in the sandbags for the German to shoot through. But I wanted the German to raise up over the top so I made it less real for effect.

Taking down a machine gun is normally the job of a squad or more. 98% who tried that were casualties. Even Sergeant York did not do that, but operated as a sniper.

He took out the machine gunner basically as a sniper. When the German's head popped up, he fired a single shot through his eye. Now could he outrun the sniper in the 2nd-story window? He did. After all, he's the hero.

The 8cm mortar would be a Battalion level weapon,

I'll just call it a mortar.

Each gun crewed by 7 people. That means 28 people to kill before the gun is neutralized.

Army Intelligence was partly correct. There weren't many Germans left in that town. They were nowhere of fighting force. Why the machine gun and mortar were there? Who knows. Maybe to warn the few Germans still in the town.

If mid-1944 or later

This is earlier than that. I think 2 years after Pearl Harbor. The Allies would have been farther along in 1944 than that far south in Italy.

Thanks so much for you help. It's greatly appreciated.