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new story/novel/book idea

mariabordelon 🚫

I need comments on this idea and some familiar with
>
> > ancient Briton during the Roman era for fact checking.
THE AUTHOR'S NOTES AND FORWARD

Those who read Auria's Story: Nurse to Native and Lisa's Story: Nerd to Nude know how the Amafook lived. Amafook women have always been beautiful and sexually liberated. Most Amafook women remain sexually active and have healthy children into their 50's and occasionally in their early 60's. Centuries ago, Amafook women learned to safely control when they get pregnant and the sex of their babies. Occasionally the unthinkable became necessary. Their "plan B" or "morning after pill" is a special potion the shaman prepares potion after intense and confidential discussions with the patient. They also have a large library of medicines for all the problems life in "the wild" brings. Through the years they have learned to set broken bones and control infection. All of their medicines are made from locally available plants and minerals. Although few have compared the Amafook medicines and methods to those in the modern world there is no doubt theirs are vastly superior.
This book will attempt to explain how the Amafook Nation began. Although there are references to ancient calendars no actual dates have been recovered for two reasons. First, the Amafook people have always measured Time by children and trees growing taller and stronger not in repetitive terms and numbers. Second, the "civilized" people were not always literate nor following calendars. Another factor was the change to the Julian calendar withing this time frame.
It is not well known nor commonly accepted due to cultural and racial prejudices but the latest anthropological and linguistic research indicates Negroid peopleβ€”Africans were the first to discover and colonize South America and the Caribbean islands. I will grant many came from northern Europe by island hopping across the bitter cold and treacherous North Atlantic Ocean. The vast majority of First People, Native Americans, etcetera can trace their ancestry from those crossing the Bering Strait many eons past. Unfortunately, the genetic record of Native Americans populating the Atlantic coast was destroyed centuries ago. There is no doubt the North American shoreline from the Artic south was more hospitable than anything anyone from European experienced.
Now let's move across the continent to the Bering Sea Land Bridge. I will not dwell on the various times and reasons for its appearance and disappearance. It is well documented that people from Asia came to North America many eons past. However, to get south where warmer and more hospitable domains exist is long and arduous journey on land. Therefore, I am going to agree with Thor Heyerdahl, who in Kon Tiki proved "primitive" people could traverse the Pacific Ocean. Here is the central question: Would you take your chances on the open ocean or freezing in the bitter north? Unfortunately, we do not have written records for either journey.
Here is another radical alternativeβ€”Africaβ€”Negroid people settled the Americas eons ago. Please note the distance between Africa and South America is least for all continents separated by an ocean. For the sake of this discussion all islands and intermediary points have been ignored. The table below will aid my assertion. The distances are rounded for convenience. The cities listed are modern points of reference and did not exist when these events occurred.

Reference Points kilometers miles
Busan, SK to San Francisco, US 9050 5620
Conaktyo, GU to Recife, BR 3150 1960
Freetown, SL to Recife, BR 3020 1875
Hong Kong to Darwin, AS 4270 2650
Lisbon, PT to Saint Augustine, US 6530 4060
Malaga, SP to Saint Augustine, US 6990 4340
Stravengar, NO to Newfoundland, CA 3900 2400

The Canary Current runs south from the British Isles to equatorial Africa and then turns west to the Americas depending on the season moves at 8.6 km/hr to 2.6 km/hr. Any vessel traveling on this ocean highway will be aided by the Portugal Current as it moves south. Near present day Sierra Leone and Guinea, the current turns west and on most modern charts becomes the South Equatorial Current and parallels the Gulf Stream Current. Near what is now Brazil and French Guyana the currents divide. The Canary Current turns south and becomes the Brazil Current. The northern branch becomes the Gulf Stream continues west into the Caribbean Sea and then north into the Gulf of Mexico and points along North America.
Ancient Rome is remembered for many things. The Roman Navy is remembered for significant victories in wars with Carthage and then taming the vile pirates that plagued the Mediterranean Sea thus insuring commercial and military dominance for centuries. Even so, the Mediterranean and Black Seas are relatively speaking giant salt lakes compared to the open Atlantic. As the Empire grew and conquered Iberia, Gaul and Britain the need to travel on the open ocean increased. Yes, Roman ships had sails but their main power was oars, specifically men pulling hard on well-shaped pieces of wood for relatively short distances. Accommodations for long voyages such as sleeping quarters, food storage and other human needs were never important design or operational considerations. Nor did they design or build their ships for the large waves and swells common to ocean voyages. Although their navigation and seafaring skills were vastly superior to all in that era, they did not have telescopes, sextants or the compass. Those items would all come 10 centuries later. The Roman navy almost always remained within sight of shore as its vessels traveled to and from Britain and other far flung provinces. At night or when inclement weather struck Roman ships anchored in coves or harbors where a small garrison was able to supply, feed and house the crews. It is quite likely some Roman ships were blown off course or otherwise scattered by the ocean. Roman era artifacts have been found on some Caribbean islands and the shores of South America. Perhaps some ships found refuge in the Canary and Cape Verde Islands or Madeira. However, no Roman relics have been found in those locations. All three island chains remained unknown and uninhabited until the 15th century. Although some speculation and rumors of distant isles occurred no stories of return exist. In other words, the traveling was always away from Rome.
I will now ask a few more questions. What if the Romans integrated and intermarried with native populations? What if captured female slaves overthrew the yolk of male oppression? What if the surviving women joined with others? What if... Remember the great plagues and diseases that bedeviled Medieval Europe were unknown in the Roman era. No satisfactory explanation has ever been given for the blonde fair skinned female warriors Gaspar de Carvajal described while traveling down the Amazon River. Indeed, that is how the river was named. Unfortunately, he did bring those dreaded diseases to the new world with devastating losses to native people.
These are not the only possibilities. The evidence scholars collect will undoubtedly add to the debate. Until we have a complete record, I sincerely hope the stories contained in this volume will give you some insight into people no longer here.
Please enjoy,

Maria Bordelon

Replies:   Uther_Pendragon
Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@mariabordelon

The shortest distance between N America Nd Asia is actually thhe Bering straits.

Replies:   mariabordelon
mariabordelon 🚫

@Uther_Pendragon

You are right about the Bering Straight, remeber it has always been damn cold.
My search is for a warmer route to the Americas
The predominant current runs south from the
artic regions to near tropical Africa then turns west to The Caribbean or south along what is now Brazil.

Radagast 🚫
Updated:

Occasionally the unthinkable became necessary. Their "plan B" or "morning after pill" is a special potion the shaman prepares potion after intense and confidential discussions with the patient. They also have a large library of medicines for all the problems life in "the wild" brings

Silphium from Cyrene in Libya would have been available as an abortificant. Britain was a a major source of copper, tin and silver for most of the bronze age This was traded by sea. See the Great Orm mine for more details. The wealthy would have had access to imported medications.

Penny Royal was known to the Greeks and Romans as an abortificant and was available in Britain.

Wild carrot may also have been known at that time to be a contraceptive and abortificant.

Remember the great plagues and diseases that bedeviled Medieval Europe were unknown in the Roman era

Not so. Look up the Plague of Justinian, the Plague of Athens, the Plague of Cyprian and the Antonine plague.
Influenza, Small Pox and Yersinia Pestis were all known sources of epidemics.

blonde fair skinned female warriors Gaspar de Carvajal described while traveling down the Amazon River. Indeed, that is how the river was named.

Here there be dragons. Travel writers have always been writers of fiction.


Unfortunately, he did bring those dreaded diseases to the new world with devastating losses to native people.

And the New World was revenged by sending Syphilis to the Old World. For the first decade of Virginia settlements death from disease was common, the colonies would have failed without constant flow of new imigrants. The Roanoke colony did fail. Just as the indigenous population was a virgin field for European diseases, the European colonists were a virgin field for New World diseases.
I suggest you look up the various alternate history and secret history forums. There are a lot of dedicated researchers who may be able to help you with world building and realism.

Radagast 🚫

Further, read up on the bronze age Michigan copper mines which were worked by 'sea people'. The end of mining coincided with the late bronze age collapse in the Mediterranean. This may provide a plausible east coast link to Europe for your story.

Mushroom 🚫

While there have been many abortificants, one technique that has been known for over 2,000 years is the IUD. Simply inserting an object into the uterus which prevents implantation of the embryo.

ALso common things were primitive cervical caps (diaphragm), even including sponged soaked in spermicides.

Vincent Berg 🚫

There are a number of issues with your basic facts. First, there is NO indication (aside from baseless racist assumptions claiming that ALL native peoples are related to 'apelike Africans'). There is NO easy trek or native current from Africa to the Americas, except the hurricane prone winds during summer.

There are, however, some weak assertions, that humans traveled from some region westward, likely either Egyptians or another Mediterranean culture, though there's little record of their every leaving the Mediterranean basin. (The Egyptians were more Mediterranean than African, with only a single Egyptian king being black.)

Secondly, using 'shamans' for the groups birth control also relies on outdated sexist stereotypes, where men ALWAYS were the ONLY source of medicine in the ancient worlds. Instead, it was normal woman who held these positions. Indeed, the whole Catholic 'witch' craze (focused entirely on women) was based on early midwives who offered women native herbs to induce early abortions.

Shaman typically snorted various hallucinogens to recount visions, assigning mystical meanings to their delusions, whereas midwives were ALWAYS focused on treating the women medical doctors avoided.

But Radgast is correct, that many cross-cultural excursions occurred around the late bronze age, as people 'exported' their bronze tools to primitive cultures unable to defend themselves (thus the biblical 'East of Eden' reference, as 'East of Eden' IS the Mediterranean Sea, and is likely the first culture reaching the English shores. Also, the link between Northern Europe and Northern America was clearly established by the Norwegian sagas, which is where Columbus, an early intellectual researcher, gleamed the idea of reaching Asia from.

As far as Muchroom's idea of early IUDs, Copper works the same way as an implanted IUD as it does in preventing and reducing infections, as the ionic effect 'steals' the spare electrons from nearby cells, causing both viruses and other cell's outer shell's to collapse, exposing them to the body's natural immune response. I have heard of copper being used for this, at least in Medieval Europe, though don't know whether is was effective or not (sperm cells AREN'T similar to viruses).

Also, as noted, the Roman galleys were notoriously UNseaworthy, sticking closely to the coast, as they sank often, while the Norwegians famously crossed between Norway, Britian and Iceland fairly often.

However, the greatest, most used and most successful anti-pregnancy substance was a native weed that grew readily outside the city-state of Rome. However, the Romans used it so much, it become extinct within a few generations.

Replies:   Dominions Son  joyR
Dominions Son 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Indeed, the whole Catholic 'witch' craze (focused entirely on women)

No, it wasn't focused entirely on women. While women predominated among those accused of witchcraft, there were men (even a few priests), and even children tried for witchcraft by the Inquisition

Nor was the "witch craze" limited to the Catholics. The Salem witch trials were not a Catholic thing. And while more women were executed for witchcraft in Salem, five men were executed for witchcraft as a result of the Salem witch trials.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Dominions Son

Indeed, the whole Catholic 'witch' craze (focused entirely on women)

Nor was the "witch craze" limited to the Catholics. The Salem witch trials were not a Catholic thing. And while more women were executed for witchcraft in Salem, five men were executed for witchcraft as a result of the Salem witch trials.

You're absolutely correct. Not only was Salem a Protestant community, there were NO ties to ANY midwives or access to birth preventions and abortions, which was what infuriated so many Popes. Instead, it, like the many historical Vampire/Zombie stories, was driven by mass-hysteria.

Good point.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

You're absolutely correct.

And you completely ignored the point that even the Catholic Inquisition's witch hunts weren't exclusively focused on women.

Yes, they tried and executed men for witchcraft (including a few priests).

Of course witchcraft was NOT the primary focus of the Inquisition. The Inquisition was primarily concerned with heretics/heresy.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Dominions Son

And you completely ignored the point that even the Catholic Inquisition's witch hunts weren't exclusively focused on women.

Yes, they tried and executed men for witchcraft (including a few priests).

Yes, once again, my penchant for overstatement continues getting me in trouble, but while men WERE prosecuted, the instigating factor was the Catholic Church's attempts to root out the persistent native English basis of Wiccan beliefs. Wiccans have NEVER worshipped Satan, which is a purely Christian construct, rather it was a deeply held belief in natural healing, which Western/Roman medicine wasn't interested in addressing.

By the way, a significant part of the Inquisition was a crusade to, once again, exterminate the Jews in Europe, which ironically led directly to the discovery of America, as the vast majority of Columbus's financial support and most of his crew were Jewish financiers attempting to flee the Inquisition.

History is rarely that dictated by the winners attempts to whitewash their real motives (though that seems to be exclusively what's taught in school). Unfortunately, it takes VERY deep dives into long-buried historic records to uncover what really happened.

But, having posted my latest rants, I'll once more run and hide, as it's clear it doesn't generate open discussions but fuels attempts to run me from the Forum (thus the reason I spend so little time here for the past few years).

Believe it or not, I KNOW when I'm not appreciated. Besides, there's very little actual discussions of writing, storytelling or styles of writing. The Forum has become a Literary graveyard! (JMHO)

Dominions Son 🚫

@Vincent Berg

I'll once more run and hide, as it's clear it doesn't generate open discussions but fuels attempts to run me from the Forum

No one is trying to run you from the forum.

As for not generating open discussions, how can there be open discussions when no one is allowed to challenge or disagree with anything you say?

Dominions Son 🚫

@Vincent Berg

the instigating factor was the Catholic Church's attempts to root out the persistent native English basis of Wiccan beliefs.

And you still can't stop with the historical revisionism.

Wicca isn't that old. It's a modern pagan religion/mystical tradition that only goes back to the early 20th century. It's loosely based on ancient Celtic beliefs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Dominions Son 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Besides, there's very little actual discussions of writing, storytelling or styles of writing.

Because every time you or Switch try to start a literary discussion, no one is allowed to disagree with you. Contrary to what you may think, that's NOT a discussion.

Mushroom 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Yes, once again, my penchant for overstatement continues getting me in trouble, but while men WERE prosecuted, the instigating factor was the Catholic Church's attempts to root out the persistent native English basis of Wiccan beliefs. Wiccans have NEVER worshipped Satan, which is a purely Christian construct, rather it was a deeply held belief in natural healing, which Western/Roman medicine wasn't interested in addressing.

Uhhh, there was not a single thing to do with "Wiccans" in that. In fact, there were no such thing as Wiccans then, that is a modern 20th century fabrication.

There is no such thing as wiccans during the witch trials and inquisition. It simply did not exist, that is a modern conglomeration of neo-pagan beliefs that were all thrown together into a great big pot, and different groups pretty much picked and choose what parts they wanted to believe in. Basically a lot of Celtic beliefs, throw in a dash of Norse and other Pre-Christian Western European beliefs. Then add a bit of Greek and Egyptian for seasoning.

Now if you want to make this some kind of alternate history where such things are real, feel free to do that. But many of us do actually understand real history, and tend to get upset when people throw around fantasy history and anthropology as if it was somehow real.

Myself, I will readily admit I find this entire thread rather disturbing. Full of the worst kind of pseudo-science and the like (some of which almost approach being based in eugenics), and of beliefs that are almost completely wrong.

It kinda reminds me of an alternate history by Harry Turtledove, were in an alternate US those who are blonde are seen as "subhuman" and enslaved. Except in his books, he in no way expects to be taken seriously. We know from the start most of it is made up, he does not believe it, nor does he expect us to believe it.

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob 🚫

@Mushroom

different groups pretty much picked and choose what parts they wanted to believe in.

Sounds like the different denominations of Christians.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin 🚫

@PotomacBob

denominations

The one, five, ten, twenty, fifty, and one hundred dollar bills that go in the collection plate. There are higher denomination bills but mostly they don't show up in a collection plate.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@richardshagrin

There are higher denomination bills but mostly they don't show up in a collection plate.

Collections are the only place they show up.

There might be a tiny number of $1000 bills in circulation, but the US government hasn't printed anything larger then $100 since 1945.

joyR 🚫

@Vincent Berg

thus the biblical 'East of Eden' reference, as 'East of Eden' IS the Mediterranean Sea

No, it isn't.

The location of the Garden of Eden is disputed. The most popular locations are at the head of the Persian Gulf, in southern Mesopotamia (now Iraq) where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers run into the sea; and in Armenia.

The Mediterranean Sea is to the WEST of these possible locations. The sea East of Armenia is the Caspian Sea.

Dominions Son 🚫

@joyR

The most popular locations are at the head of the Persian Gulf, in southern Mesopotamia (now Iraq) where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers run into the sea; and in Armenia.

Actually, when you go back 6K+ years (4000+ BCE) sea levels were considerably lower.

If Eden did exist and it was at the point where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers ran into the sea back then, then it is currently somewhere on the bottom of the Persian Gulf.

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob 🚫

@Dominions Son

Actually, when you go back 6K+ years (4000+ BCE) sea levels were considerably lower.

Why is that true? Water tied up in ice?

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Why is that true? Water tied up in ice?

Yes, mostly Water tied up in land bound ice. Floating ice like the Arctic doesn't affect sea level either way.

Here's a chart showing sea level change back to the last glacial maximum (around 22K years ago).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_sea_level#/media/File:Post-Glacial_Sea_Level.png

Sea level at the last Glacial maximum was around 130 meters lower than it is today.

Even just 6K years ago sea levels would have been a couple of meters lower.

I can't find an easy source for a sea level chart focused on the last 8K years.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Mike-Kaye
Not_a_ID 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Yes, mostly Water tied up in land bound ice. Floating ice like the Arctic doesn't affect sea level either way.

That was one of the funniest things for me personally once it was pointed out. It should be freaking obvious to everyone on the planet that melting sea ice isn't going to change water levels in any meaningful way because if it is already floating, it has already displaced the amount of water it will upon melting.

That whole thing about ice being less dense than water, and for buoyancy to work, you have to displace as much water by weight as your object weighs.

So by the time you've changed the state of the water from solid to liquid again, the weight to volume ratio is going to be 1:1.

If some doubts this, feel free to test it by placing some free floating ice in a measuring cup filled with water. note the water level after ice was added. Note the water level after the ice melts. It will be the same.

Just remember to mark the water level, not the level of the ice itself, or you'll see it drop.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Not_a_ID

It should be freaking obvious to everyone on the planet that melting sea ice isn't going to change water levels in any meaningful way because if it is already floating, it has already displaced the amount of water it will upon melting.

There are a couple of other odd effects that make it a little less obvious.

The most important is thermal expansion/contraction Water is densest just a bit above the freezing point (4 degrees Celcius IIRC) So the volume of the oceans can change as the average temperature of the ocean changes.

For most purposes this effect can be ignored as it would take ridiculous amounts of energy to get more than a few millimeters of volume change over the whole ocean.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID 🚫

@Dominions Son

The most important is thermal expansion/contraction Water is densest just a bit above the freezing point (4 degrees Celcius IIRC) So the volume of the oceans can change as the average temperature of the ocean changes.

Yes, and certain groups are starting to make claims in that department as well.

Replies:   joyR
joyR 🚫

@Not_a_ID

Yes, and certain groups are starting to make claims in that department as well.

Various groups publish charts showing ocean surface temperature changes, some covering a period of the last hundred years. However, none of these groups will ever be able to produce the results of regular measurements taken at a multitude of points in all oceans, as there simply are none.

All of the published charts use a very small number of sample measurements over a short period of time and extrapolate to suit their desired results.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone 🚫

@joyR

All of the published charts use a very small number of sample measurements over a short period of time and extrapolate to suit their desired results.

I have used the comparison of someone taking three pictures of a wave hitting a beach with less than five seconds between the first and last one. They then try to determine not only if the tide is coming in, in the process of changing direction, or going out.

Additionally, they are to use those three pictures to figure out if the high tide that day would be higher, lower, or the same as the day before.

Mike-Kaye 🚫

@Dominions Son

Yes, mostly Water tied up in land bound ice. Floating ice like the Arctic doesn't affect sea level either way.

That would be true if the sea was fresh water.

Start with a bit of magic. Our floating ice is going to melt but keep its shape. As it melts it shrinks and sinks somewhat. The former ice now displaces its weight in sea water just like before it melted. But because sea water is heaver than fresh water some former ice still sits above the water line.

Cancel the magic and the fresh water spills off the top raising the sea level. Any rock or within sea ice reduces its weight reducing the sea level as heaver material falls to the sea bed.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Mushroom
Dominions Son 🚫

@Mike-Kaye

Any rock or within sea ice reduces

The vast majority of sea ice (90+% of the Arctic sea ice and the majority of the antarctic sea ice) is frozen sea water, not land based glacial ice dumped into the sea, there wouldn't be any rocks in it.

And as frozen sea water, my understanding is that in the freezing process it loses most, but not necessarily all of it's salt.

On top of that, the effect you note residual. Less than 10% of the ice melt would contribute to sea level rise.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@Dominions Son

And as frozen sea water, my understanding is that in the freezing process it loses most, but not necessarily all of it's salt.

Two terms to look up for that.
1. Freezing point depression
2. Fractional freezing

Water molecules only attach to other water molecules in this scenario.
Na+ Ci- ions in the sea water solution are expelled during the formation of the ice crystalline matrix. That leaves a higher concentration of NaCi in the remaining liquid (which is why the salinity of seawater at the edges of sea ice is so high). That remaining liquid is left with higher concentrations of NaCi and requires colder temperatures to freeze. Once the concentration exceeds 23% by weight, it creates a eutectic system where it all freeze together. To my knowledge, that doesn't normally happen in nature, but can be forced in a lab.

Some salt invariably ends up trapped mechanically, but it is an insignificant amount.

Mushroom 🚫

@Mike-Kaye

Start with a bit of magic. Our floating ice is going to melt but keep its shape. As it melts it shrinks and sinks somewhat. The former ice now displaces its weight in sea water just like before it melted. But because sea water is heaver than fresh water some former ice still sits above the water line.

Bad understanding on how ocean currents work.

In reality, in most cases fresh water flows under sea water. This is because in most cases it is colder, and therefore less dense. It sinks lower, often flowing underwater as a river under a covering of salt water.

But feel free to ask any diver if you do not believe this. We call them "thermoclines", and they are often very obvious. Drop from 50 to 60 feet down (an example), and within 2 or 3 feet the temperature drops 5 degrees or more and the water is "clearer". Well, that's a thermocline. And if there is a nearby stream entering the body of water, that is most likely the source.

There is even one recently discovered about 180 feet under the Gulf of Mexico. Scientists are still trying to understand why and how, but there is a thin layer of hydrogen sulfate between the fresh and salt water.

But I have been diving for over 30 years, and your mistake is obvious to me. Salt water is "denser" than fresh water, that is true (at the same temperature, "weight" does not apply in a liquid, it is all about density). But colder fresh water can very often be more dense than sea water. Therefore it sinks.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@joyR

thus the biblical 'East of Eden' reference, as 'East of Eden' IS the Mediterranean Sea

No, it isn't.

The location of the Garden of Eden is disputed. The most popular locations are at the head of the Persian Gulf, in southern Mesopotamia (now Iraq) where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers run into the sea; and in Armenia.

True, but the Judaic roots (Etymology) for the name "Eden" literally translates as 'East of the Mediterranean' (I discovered it doing research for a new book, which never panned out). Thus, the latest theories of where Eden might have been (as most don't consider it an actual historic event) don't change the original meaning of the term (though few Western sources seem to bother with the Judaic sources of Biblical events, though Biblical scholars do).

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

Thus, the latest theories of where Eden might have been (as most don't consider it an actual historic event) don't change the original meaning of the term (though few Western sources seem to bother with the Judaic sources of Biblical events, though Biblical scholars do).

I've heard that is a major problem when it comes to dating the Exodus as well. There are people out there who are convinced the Exodus predates Ramses by several centuries.

Not_a_ID 🚫

@joyR

The location of the Garden of Eden is disputed. The most popular locations are at the head of the Persian Gulf, in southern Mesopotamia (now Iraq) where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers run into the sea; and in Armenia.

The Mediterranean Sea is to the WEST of these possible locations. The sea East of Armenia is the Caspian Sea.

I remember claims that the Garden of Eden may actually have been located on the island of Bahrain during the Ice Age, IIRC.

Of course, if you ask a Mormon, they might tell you it was in Missouri instead. ;)

Replies:   Dominions Son  joyR
Dominions Son 🚫

@Not_a_ID

I remember claims that the Garden of Eden may actually have been located on the island of Bahrain during the Ice Age, IIRC.

Again, assuming for the sake of argument that it actually exists, a large part of the problem with finding it is that if you go all the way back to the last glacial maximum, sea level was more than 100M lower than it is today.

Everybody is looking for it in places that are dry land today. But going that far back, there's no reason to assume it's original location isn't under water today.

joyR 🚫

@Not_a_ID

Of course, if you ask a Mormon, they might tell you it was in Missouri instead. ;)

Given that they only date 200 years I'm sure their claims are beyond doubt... :)

Then again, some people built a replica 'ark' complete with dinosaurs. Apparently The Flintstones cartoon was a documentary. Who knew??

:)

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob 🚫

@joyR

Apparently The Flintstones cartoon was a documentary.

Of course it's a documentary. Otherwise it wouldn't have been on television.

richardshagrin 🚫
Updated:

The For um sometimes becomes an Against um. People make jokes and/or puns. Hairy Tics are more visible than ones without hair. (Bald Tics?) If the Sea grows hair it becomes Hairy Sea. I think there might be a pun in Crumbly Writer, one whose cookies don't hold together well, they crumble. A writer is righter than people who don't write. And having rites ties in with hairy tics who don't believe in the rites that are right. Puns reveal the truth. And veal is the meat from young cows.

richardshagrin 🚫

People are less dense than both salt (sea) and fresh water. That is how we can swim in both. It is hard to swim if you have weights attached to your body that make you too dense to float. And some people are denser than others, which is why not everyone understands everything.

Replies:   joyR  Mushroom
joyR 🚫

@richardshagrin

A more cynical view would be that some turds float...

Mushroom 🚫

@richardshagrin

People are less dense than both salt (sea) and fresh water. That is how we can swim in both. It is hard to swim if you have weights attached to your body that make you too dense to float. And some people are denser than others, which is why not everyone understands everything.

To be perfectly technical, that is not quite true. We are more dense in reality, but the air we have in our lungs off-sets that and makes us less dense most times.

Remove the air from the lungs, and we sink. Corpses do not have the muscle reflex that keeps water out, so water flows into the lungs and they sink. They only rise again if/when decomposition causes gasses to build up in the body after death. But only if the body was shallow enough to offset the extra pressure. Generally 33 feet or shallower.

And us divers, we generally dive with both weights attached to our body, as well a an inflatable vest. The weights I generally use are around 30 pounds, a lot of that to offset my wetsuit and other equipment. For skindiving, I would probably use maybe 5.

Then an Buoyancy Control Device (BCD), which I can inflate while underwater to compensate for the affects as I get deeper. The deeper you go, the more air you need in it. And you have to release it as you rise or the loss of outside pressure would have me rocketing to the surface.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Mushroom

And you have to release it as you rise or the loss of outside pressure would have me rocketing to the surface.

That's the other reason that we do decompression stops if you spend too much time below 32 feet, and sometimes have additional tanks waiting on the rope. One nice thing about learning to dive in Indiana - with the mud and silt, it makes just about any other place seem wonderful.

Did snorkeling in Alaska, we had almost 3/4" thick wetsuits on, because the 55 degree was just ... chilling. But it was cool being down with all the little 2" diameter jellyfish.

awnlee jawking 🚫

To be perfectly technical, that is not quite true. We are more dense in reality, but the air we have in our lungs off-sets that and makes us less dense most times.

My understanding is that a tiny number of individuals can't even float because of their unusual body makeups. I'd be interested if anyone has more information on that.

AJ

Remus2 🚫

@awnlee jawking

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/muscle-versus-fat/

Mushroom 🚫

@awnlee jawking

My understanding is that a tiny number of individuals can't even float because of their unusual body makeups. I'd be interested if anyone has more information on that.

Easy. Muscle is much more dense than fat. This is why in general men have to expend more energy than women do to remain afloat.

And I have experienced that first hand. In the military I often have to have my body fat measured. And once I had an individual question how my body fat percentage decreased, but I weighed more. He was trying to imply the test was fraudulent, but the Medic squared him away, saying this was normal.

And this can even be seen. I know I am not the only person to notice that female breasts tend to float in the water. They are mostly fat, which is normally less dense than water.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

My understanding is that a tiny number of individuals can't even float because of their unusual body makeups. I'd be interested if anyone has more information on that.

Some of us are particularly dense, regardless of the air we breathe! ;)

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Some of us are particularly dense

One of the advantages of being fat is not being dense.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl 🚫

@richardshagrin

One of the advantages of being fat is not being dense.

We have signs posted at work that say if you are short of breath, that may be a sign of Covid and to not enter. I always thought that was just part of being fat and not physically fit. (I was going to say out of shape, but round is a shape.)

irvmull 🚫

@awnlee jawking

My understanding is that a tiny number of individuals can't even float because of their unusual body makeups. I'd be interested if anyone has more information on that.

First hand: I was really skinny in college. We had a required swimming course. Instructor stated "Not everyone can be a great swimmer, but everybody can float." We were ordered into the pool.

Well, I knew what would happen. I sank right to the bottom, and sat there. I was pretty good at holding my breath. Sure enough, eventually a long pole came down for me to grab.

"Ok, almost everybody..."

As the years have passed, I've learned that sufficient intake of Big Macs and fried chicken can make a person much safer in the water.

Dominions Son 🚫

@irvmull

As the years have passed, I've learned that sufficient intake of Big Macs and fried chicken can make a person much safer in the water.

Try and get McDonalds and KFC to market their products as pool safety gear. :)

awnlee jawking 🚫

@irvmull

Thank you.

Despite your predicament, I'm glad to know it's not just an urban myth.

AJ

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Despite your predicament, I'm glad to know it's not just an urban myth.

IIRC, my high school physics text book claimed something like 1 in 10 people are actually more dense than water and not naturally buoyant.

palamedes 🚫

On July 14, 1969, David M. Kennedy, the 60th Secretary of the Treasury, and officials at the Federal Reserve Board announced that they would immediately stop distributing currency in denominations of $500, $1,000, $5,000 and $10,000.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@palamedes

There was a minor rush to collect those when that announcement was made. I'm surprised some of the do-over stories haven't worked that into the story given how much they sell for on the collection market now.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone 🚫

@Remus2

The biggest reason I can think of is that most do-over stories I have seen are set several years, if not decades after 1969.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@AmigaClone

The biggest reason I can think of is that most do-over stories I have seen are set several years, if not decades after 1969.

Plus that would be a huge investment. Setting aside even $500 then would be like setting aside almost $3,500 today. That is a hell of a lot of money to just sit on, hoping that it someday gains in value.

However, I have read a lot of stories that went a much easier way. When they stopped using silver coins, they remained in circulation for another 15 years. It was common to find silver coins, and nobody cared because they were worth no more than any other coin. But in 1979 when the price of silver went crazy, almost overnight they all disappeared.

Suddenly the silver was worth a lot more than the face value, and they have been almost impossible to see since then.

The first "do-over" story was actually in 1986, "Replay", by Ken Grimwood. In short, he dies of a heart attack at 43, then returns at around age 20. Lives his life, makes some changes, then on the exact same day at the exact same time has another heart attack, and does it all over again.

The story is amazing, and I did try to write something similar a few times, but never could get one that felt right. And of course since then it has become very big. But in that book, he encourages some people to hold onto silver coins, because they might become valuable someday.

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob 🚫

@Mushroom

The first "do-over" story was actually in 1986, "Replay", by Ken Grimwood.

Loved the book. I thought the movie "Groundhog Day" might be based on "Replay."

richardshagrin 🚫

If you intend to go from the Eastern Coast of North America, using the Bering Strait is probably a good idea if it isn't blocked by ice, which it used to be most of the time. Climate Change may have made it more useful. However if you want to leave (North) America from the West Coast (example, the State of Washington, but Alaska, Oregon and California are also possible and Canada and Mexico share North America and also have Western coasts you can cross the Pacific Ocean to Asia without traversing the Bering Strait.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@richardshagrin

If you intend to go from the Eastern Coast of North America, using the Bering Strait is probably a good idea if it isn't blocked by ice

If you intend to go from the East coast of North America using the Bering Strait is impossible since the Bering Strait is on the west coast.

And as to it being blocked by ice, that's the whole idea. What I've read is that the theory is that people first arrived in the Americas during the last major glaciation by crossing the Bering Strait on foot.

Radagast 🚫

The north west coast of North America was under 1500 metres of ice during the last glacial maximum. I doubt any form of life could make it across the land bridge and down into warmer lands. I know thats the current scientific explanation for settlement of the Americas, but I am not buying it. What is ancient Inuit for "I am just going outside and may be some time."? There would have been a lot of that in trying to walk 2000 miles from Nome to Portland. Von Daniken's fictions seem more plausible.

Its occasionally possible to walk from Siberia to Alaska during winter even as we are all dying from Global Warming and rising seal levels, so I'll accept that human settlement may have travelled over the land bridge after the start of the Holocene.
The draining of Lake Agassiz apparently cause very rapid sea level rises in Europe that would have destroyed coastal settlements. It may also have cancelled or reversed the Gulf Stream for a time.
Reversed or not, so far there is no evidence that the technology of sail was around at that point to allow an eastward colonization of the Americas.

Not_a_ID 🚫
Updated:

@Radagast

The north west coast of North America was under 1500 metres of ice during the last glacial maximum. I doubt any form of life could make it across the land bridge and down into warmer lands. I know thats the current scientific explanation for settlement of the Americas, but I am not buying it. What is ancient Inuit for "I am just going outside and may be some time."? There would have been a lot of that in trying to walk 2000 miles from Nome to Portland. Von Daniken's fictions seem more plausible.

Depends on whose maps you're looking at(not all of the northwest coast was under ice), it also ignores the matter that because the sea level was lower, there was "other land" they could use for their transit which may not have been under a glacier, but we have no way of knowing reliably because those areas are under water now, and the physical evidence is either buried under a lot of sediment in very difficult to access locations, or possibly washed away.

Replies:   Radagast
Radagast 🚫

@Not_a_ID

A valid point about other land bridges. With ice distorting the shape of the continent we really can't tell where the coasts were. The area under the Laurentide ice sheet was depressed 1000 to 1500 metres and is now as much as 300 metres above its compressed position. Sea levels were 180 metres lower.
England was solidly connected to France & Germany with the Thames draining into the Rhine. We know Doggerland was inhabited as bone tools have been brought up in fishing trawlers.
Plenty of potential for biblical flood stories but still no sign of higher technology needed for oceanic travel.
I've read one estimate of human population at the time being no more than 30,000 individuals. Its unlikely they would sustain any tech higher than stone knapping or pottery. There is no evidence for agriculture (flax for canvas, hemp for rope) or husbandry (sheep for wool) needed for oceanic sailing.

mariabordelon 🚫

@Radagast

the question of this inquiry is the westward movement from europe or africa?????

Dominions Son 🚫

@Radagast

I know thats the current scientific explanation for settlement of the Americas, but I am not buying it.

If Greenland and Iceland were not completely under the ice, a northern ocean passage could be possible. The Vikings did it, long before Columbus.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

If Greenland and Iceland were not completely under the ice, a northern ocean passage could be possible. The Vikings did it, long before Columbus.

The Chinese may have done it too, some (rather fringey) researchers are finding genetic evidence(in modern populations), and believe they may have archaeological evidence to suggest that a certain "lost fleet" of Chinese ships found their way to Canada's Eastern islands(forget which one) back in the time before the Little Ice Age.

As I think about it, their coming in by way of the Arctic would make more sense than sailing down to the southernmost extreme of South america and up to Canada's East Coast.

It could also explain how the fleet became lost. They made it through because they happened to time it just right that they cruised through while the Arctic was iceless, and became "lost" when they weren't so lucky on their efforts to return. (It had iced over, and remained that way on subsequent attempts to return; they just had the misfortune of not know that was a hazard they needed to plan for, probably because it was their first time through there-the wrong kind of luck)

But all kinds of disclaimers should probably be attached to the above. Although as I think about it, there is credible evidence of Chinese ships reaching the western coast of the US centuries ago, long before the Europeans did.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Mushroom
Dominions Son 🚫

@Not_a_ID

there is credible evidence of Chinese ships reaching the western coast of the US centuries ago, long before the Europeans did.

Before the Vikings reached the east coast of North America?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID 🚫

@Dominions Son

Before the Vikings reached the east coast of North America?

I'd have to go find the posts from the guy making the claims to refresh my memory on the time frame he's claiming. I couldn't find his stuff in a quick google search, and the only "lost fleet" from China reference I could find was in the 1420's, so that would be after the Vikings, but before Columbus. But he might have somehow been talking about an earlier fleet? For Arctic to be open, I'd be expecting it to be closer to the time frame of when the Vikings were capable of farming in Greenland, not a century or so after agriculture had collapsed there.

Mushroom 🚫

@Not_a_ID

But all kinds of disclaimers should probably be attached to the above. Although as I think about it, there is credible evidence of Chinese ships reaching the western coast of the US centuries ago, long before the Europeans did.

I have seen those claims many times over the decades. And they generally all boil down to junk research and make believe.

The simple truth is, the Chinese were never very interested in "exploring". Even their greatest explorer was Admiral Zheng He at the start of the 15th century. And all he did was sail around Indonesia and other Chinese territories, then making a trip that basically followed the Arab traders back to their source, visiting the Horn of Africa and Arabia before returning.

This is just their culture, China has long been "inward thinking", and never had much interest in exploring other places. So why some would believe they would for some reason sail all the way to San Francisco, mine silver near Bakersfield, and leave some of the worst pictograms in rocks in Arizona is beyond me. Then just leave and never return (and with no written records in China or legends among the locals).

In reality, there is no "credible evidence" of such visits. Just some people who want to believe, and will try to sketch together the worst of evidence and try to make it fit.

palamedes 🚫

The ability and technology was there back then just not as most people to day think. Polynesian where sailing the pacific ocean for vast distances and long periods of time spent out on the open sea.

You can read here for 1 example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8Dk%C5%ABle%CA%BBa

I can't remember what they call it in Hawaii but they do a traditional journey between the island in an outrigger canoe which takes months to complete and is a very big honor to be a member of the rowing team

Replies:   Radagast
Radagast 🚫
Updated:

@palamedes

Its my understanding that the polynesian canoes used sails, and that their voyages of discovery began no more than 4,000 years ago. The discussion, at least from my side, is about the last ice age and the OP was talking of colonization of America from Africa. So far I've seen no evidence that the necessary tech existed there, especially during the last ice age.

Thanks for the link, old age has killed some memories. I now recall reading about those in the seventies. Its fascinating how humans get around.

Replies:   palamedes
palamedes 🚫

@Radagast

One thing you have too look at about crossing the oceans during the ice age periods is what the earth possibly looked like during that time. The oceans are not a simple bowl where they are just flat out deep. Here is a map (modern but will give you a reference)

https://cdn.britannica.com/04/6004-050-0816A49C/depth-contours-Atlantic-Ocean-submarine-features.jpg

as you can see there is this nice mountain that would have been high and dry not to mention an island here and a island there. Just because it was long ago doesn't mean that they just couldn't do it. If you look at the map and enlarge it you can go from the southern part of Africa across the Walvis ridge to the Discovery Seamounts then hop onto the Mid Atlantic ridge followed by the Rio Grande Rise and end up in South America heck they might have even been able to do it with out getting the feet wet.

Try this

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/07/mammoth-trap-mexico-prehistoric-hunting-pits

The last ice age ended around 13,000 years ago here is a recent find in Mexico dating 15,000 years ago on a neat and safe way to capture and kill those tiny elephants called mammoths. It was simple dig hole to make trap, chase beast with fire into trap, dinner is served. Early man might not have had computers but they could and did do many things that even today we look and ask HOW did they do it and HOW LONG did it take.

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