Forum: Author Hangout

Yeesh! Online Forums Much More Active than SOL

Vincent Berg 🚫

After a long absence (several years, triggered by my author name not agreeing with my outdated website/email), I finally returned to Quora, which has mutliple specialized Author Forums. Although I had a great track record while I was active, I've largely ignored the incessant weekly announcements over the years.

Within the first two day back on the sites, I have well over 1,000 views, was getting 20 to 30 answer requests per day (it's more like dozen per hour now), and my answers keep getting upvoted and generate MORE inquiries.

Unlike here, where everyone actively fights you every time you attempt to discuss techniques, there people are not only hungry for actually working suggestions or clarifications, authors (both newbies and old hands) are eager for suggestions and new approaches.

While I'm not discounting the value of our forum here, since I stopped actively pushing issues, the topics seem to have slowed substantially. Basically, a Forum that isn't engaged and actively involved, seems to stagnate into old habits.

While there are still several excellent stories playing out, the discussions just aren't as engaging and spirited (not argumentative) as here. However, conversely, it's utterly relentless. You have to actively limit how many people you reply to on a daily basis, turning your browser and email off so your NOT inundated with new requests and responses.

I'm not trying to brag or trash the local authors, but the nature of the exchanges are SO different between the two sites, it's certainly surprising.

In short, I'm not sure whether rejoining Quora was a good move (it certainly generates more hits on my website, as authors and readers keep researching who I am online), I'm not sure whether it's worth the dramatically increased maintenance keeping up.

Has anyone here ever used Quora, or are active/tried it before, or am I the only sucker stupid enough to volunteer for this abuse?

By the way, LibraryThings has an excellent Free Review Submissions feature, while LinkedIn also has some active Forums too, and aren't 'quite' as overbearing, though they're close.

And here I thought, if you're not active, readers forget who you are quickly. Guess that doesn't always apply!

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Has anyone here ever used Quora, or are active/tried it before, or am I the only sucker stupid enough to volunteer for this abuse?

In my area of research, Quora is absolutely useless.

A typical exchange follows the form:

Q: Can pigs fly?

A: Pigs can fly in an anticlockwise direction. Buy my book for details.

Clickbait, and actually worse than Wikipedia (spit) :(

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Q: Can pigs fly?

The correct answer is: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. Landing is a different matter, and who would want to be standing under a flying pig.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@Dominions Son

The correct answer is: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.

Actually the truth is that pigs could fly, past tense, thus "swine flu".

:)

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@joyR

thus "swine flu".

But, did one flu over the cuckoo's nest?

Replies: joyR awnlee jawking

joyR 🚫

@Dominions Son

But, did one flu over the cuckoo's nest?

One did, the other hit his head on a flue and is now cuckoo...

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

cuckoo's nest

Is there such a thing? I thought female cuckoos laid a single egg in another bird's nest then rinse and repeat.

AJ

Replies: joyR Dominions Son

joyR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I thought female cuckoos laid a single egg in another bird's nest then rinse and repeat.

Are you confusing a cuckoo with a washing machine..?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@joyR

Are you confusing a cuckoo with a washing machine..?

I wondered why my tighty-whities weren't getting clean!

AJ

Replies: Bondi Beach

Bondi Beach 🚫

@awnlee jawking

So, who said humor and spritely dialogue were gone from the Forum?
~ JBB

Replies: richardshagrin awnlee jawking

richardshagrin 🚫

@Bondi Beach

spritely dialogue

What does a lemon-lime soda have to say? And the Forum has puns, that is mostly humor.

Replies: Bondi Beach

Bondi Beach 🚫

@richardshagrin

QED (not OED).
~ JBB

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Bondi Beach

So, who said humor and spritely dialogue were gone from the Forum?

Wait, Faye from Three Square Meals posts to the forum??

Aj

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Is there such a thing? I thought female cuckoos laid a single egg in another bird's nest then rinse and repeat.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006CU9XOQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Complain to the author, not me.

Vincent Berg 🚫

The point about the Qurom Spaces is that it's an active, engaged community. Are there utterly stupid and insipid entries, sure. But the key isn't to just peek in every now and then, because you'll ONLY see items that have to application to you. Instead, you need to drill down to an (active) Space that's applicable to your interests, browse the discussions to determine whether they're a good fit or not and then post specific questions. And by "specific", I mean detailed, so you'll get detailed answers back.

Unfortunately, there are ever progressing steps to boost your status and visibility, which takes some negotiating (the social equivalent of a Pyramid Scheme). But as I noted, what Quora is good for is to strengthen your professional reputation, as just another name in a LinkedIn database in a given field, but as someone who's knowledgable, knows what they're talking about, and (for authors) has a good feel for how story's are crafted and is open to those seeking assistance.

But no, it's a lousy site for promoting your book, as other than referencing your book in every single comment, you can't list your website, announce your book, post promotional material or anything similar. Again, it's a social networking site, allowing you to connect with others in your field, and/or a way to reach others in more distant fields for inside information for stories.

But then, the same is true for Wikipedia. If your only exposure to Wiki is casually glancing at it to see whether it has the latest information on a given subject, you'll always be disappointed. But if you learn the types of information it's better at (for me, it's referencing sources, verifying famous quotes or getting the original publishing details for various books, it's a goldmine. But any other use, to 'test' it's authenticity, is destined for failure, as it's not heavily reviewed, and it's better for easily verified data than for breaking news and updates.

Zachariah M P Goadsby 🚫

For what it's worth, I've always found Quora to be awful in my area of expertise. In particular because people post absolute bullshit and I see no way to respond.

The site has a tendency to promote answers that conform to popular narratives rather than accurate and informed ones.

By contrast Stackexchange is still very flawed but at least there is accountability and moderation.

Banadin 🚫

More like IED

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Banadin

More like IED

Intestinal Equilibrium Disorder?

Replies: Eddie Davidson

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I've tried many times to find a place where my stories should live. I know that they don't appeal to a broad audience here on SOL. Yet, I love the interface and the webmaster.

It is what it is.

I won't mention the other places I've looked at but none of them work the same way. Everything here follows a certain kind of logic that makes sense to me.

I think all that would make it better (for me) is if there was a way to increase the erotic stories versus the non-erotic ones.

Replies: awnlee jawking Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

I think all that would make it better (for me) is if there was a way to increase the erotic stories versus the non-erotic ones.

My quick count showed that of the 228 new stories on SOL in the last 30 days, 36 had no or minimal sex - around 16%.

I'd rather see more non-erotic stories.

AJ

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

@Eddie Davidson

I won't mention the other places I've looked at but none of them work the same way. Everything here follows a certain kind of logic that makes sense to me.

Good to hear that.

Just yesterday I received this message from a new author to the site:

Please delete my stories and close my account.

Your readers are knuckle-dragging incels; your

interface is idiotic, and it's nearly impossible for a

writer to find her own stories and the dashboard for

them.

The site looks terrible, like something you'd see on a

Radio Shack computer circa 1985.

So I would like to ask you guys, what other stories site is considered these days good with good interface. Not just modern but truly good.

I've been doing this for a long time now, and I'm very aware that things have changed since I started. I created the current classic interface in 2004 and even though I bolted few themes on (yes, eventually I'll finish the dark theme), but it works fairly the same way as 2004.

So, what would be a good interface by today's standard? And not just the look. I'm interested in what makes a good flow. Any specific examples would be awesome.

I've been to wattpad and and I guess it's modern, but for you guys that use that site extensively, what elements/features make the site more desirable?

Replies: rustyken Ernest Bywater Switch Blayde Keet Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster) graybyrd Darian Wolfe

rustyken 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I am not a fan of change for change sake. Every computer interface takes time to learn so perhaps the author was impatient and unwilling to learn a new interface. To me the choices offered are pretty obvious but then I've been interacting with the site for a long time.

I wonder if the author got flamed or poor ratings on the story they posted, presuming they posted one.

As to suggestions to improve the site's human interface, I have no suggestions at the present time.

Cheers, RustyKen

Ernest Bywater 🚫
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

So, what would be a good interface by today's standard?

The best I've found is the one you currently use. Way too many sites today use a BB type interface that looks more like a 1990s bulletin board than anything else and they're damned hard to do much with.

The only thing I can fault with SoL is probably my own fault because I do not have the mobile mode in use on my tablet and I find my big fingers often hit two touch screen items at once or activate the wrong one by mistake as the icons and menu text is so small on the tablet.

I feel sure the complainant wanted something like Windows 8 with giant icons and everything touchscreen usage but they didn't bother to activate the available options or the mobile mode. Thus they couldn't work it due to not having the IQ to go beyond what is staring them in the face with a brilliant blinking light.

corrected the typo bug

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I've been to wattpad and and I guess it's modern, but for you guys that use that site extensively, what elements/features make the site more desirable?

Don't compare wattpad to SOL. Wattpad is basically a social site. My time there is spent discussing publishing with other authors and sometimes to help young authors with writing. Totally different than SOL.

As to other story sites, SOL is it for me. I don't visit any others (again, wattpad isn't a story site for me). So I have no other story site to compare SOL to. I think SOL is an amazing site that's improving all the time. And I don't know of any other site where the webmaster actually listens to feedback.

Keet 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

So, what would be a good interface by today's standard? And not just the look. I'm interested in what makes a good flow. Any specific examples would be awesome.

The look is very important to first-time visitors, you know "the first impression...". There's nothing wrong with the flow. SOL offers a huge amount of content and I couldn't think of a better flow without loosing functionality. Almost any list can be sorted, there are different ways for searching, and it's usually pretty fast.
The problem with a new modern interface is that it requires a huge effort that essentially doesn't add anything besides good looks. And then you will always have some of the current users that will hate it if you don't have a way to keep the old interface for those who want it.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Thank you all for the praise.

However, we can all agree that we're all used to the interface and it makes sense to us, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I know I'm definitely set in my ways and my way of thinking and can't think like a young person about these things.

It's not the first time that I get this 'old interface' criticism. Almost every review of the whole site says that.

The site needs to appeal to new users in order to stay relevant, and too many people don't go beyond the initial impression to experience what the site has to offer. Too few people coming from search engines stick around long enough to register for a free account. When people stick around for a short time, they start appreciating the site, however, most don't stick around long enough, no matter how short that is.

I guess I should refocus on refreshing the mobil interface with navigation menus like those for native apps. 70% of users browse the site on a phone-sized device. So that experience should be enhanced and revamped. So I guess that is where I should put in some effort to keep the site relevant in the long run.

graybyrd 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I, too, am an ol' stick in the mud. But that doesn't change the caution that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. SOL is incredibly well designed and functional as far as the UI is concerned.

So, if the mobile mode needs tweaking, fine. Glitz it up, simplify it, add big MS two-dimensional dancing buttons, or whatever. But leave it as is for us desktop monitor and laptop folks.

I used to enjoy the Firefox browser; it gained a huge eyeball share. Then the UI tweakers got hold of it, and I've learned to despise that fact that every few updates becomes a horror show in broken intuitive design. Firefox is now at the back of my queue.

This is a story site. Form follows function. SOL does it better than any other site on the web.

Just sayin'.

Darian Wolfe 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I enjoy the website as is though the public frontpage is over the top for me. I avoid it if possible. It does look like a porn site page from the mid-'90s. That could stand a bit of clean up and elegance.

The interior of the site on desktop view is fine. Sure, it could be a little more "modern". I would hate for that "modern" look to interfere with the established flow.
I don't want a bazillion choices on a drop-down menu. I don't like drop-down menu's because they create work. I would have to find the correct menu and then choose my selection. Now, I click once and am generally where I want to be.

It would be a huge pain in the ass, but if you are going to recode anyway then create almost infinite options through user selections of what geegaws and styles they want. You would then have the onerous pleasure of writing a more "Modern" user instruction manual that included Youtube videos of how to follow the written instructions.

I'm cranky in my old age and like simple things. If modern equals simple then I'm all for it.

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

I've used a few other sites as a reader, not a writer. I have to say, your tag system and both category and advanced search features beat anything else out there short of Amazon (and maybe them too :) )

No other story site (Including Amazon) gives the kind of control over search result sorting that SOL has.

and it's nearly impossible for a writer to find her own stories and the dashboard for them

Clearly this complainer is a complete moron.

From the SOL homepage -> Authors/Editors -> Go to Homepage

I've been to wattpad and and I guess it's modern

It's flashy. SOL is more usable.

Perhaps if you could find a way to implement better graphic design without sacrificing usability.

That said, I'll take poor graphic design and high usability over flashy graphic design and poor usability any day of the week.

Replies: Dominions Son Remus2 Keet

Dominions Son 🚫

@Dominions Son

SOL has much better handling for multi chapter stories than any other story site out there.

Replies: Not_a_ID

Not_a_ID 🚫

@Dominions Son

SOL has much better handling for multi chapter stories than any other story site out there.

Some people like the (Javascript enabled) "never-ending page scroll" for multi-chapter stories. Although it baffles me as to why. That either forces bookmarking(assuming the javascript also is updating the URI, which it often doesn't), or making sure that browser window never closes, because good luck finding where you left off when you come back to that 75K+ word story.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Not_a_ID

Some people like the (Javascript enabled) "never-ending page scroll" for multi-chapter stories.

Except that's not what the majority of amateur story sites give you. On many, the author posts each chapter independently and readers are left struggling to find all the chapters.

Remus2 🚫

@Dominions Son

Clearly this complainer is a complete moron.

DING DING DING... Give the winner a cigar

Keet 🚫

@Dominions Son

That said, I'll take poor graphic design and high usability over flashy graphic design and poor usability any day of the week.

This. Usability should always come before a flashy interface and SOL is great in usability. And it doesn't look that bad, a little dated but as someone mentioned: don't change just because of change.
That said, a more modern (fluid?) design could attract more readers that do care more about looks than functionality, which unfortunately still is a big chunk of the internet users.

samsonjas 🚫

Content is king.

I read a lot of fanfiction.net. The ui is no better than sol. But I like the content.

Anything sol can do to improve discovery would be great. Like, I don't know, a basic fucking recommendation system. Collaborative filtering algorithms are no longer hard nor expensive, it's just a gazillion libraries to choose from.

And then sol will survive better because of the content.

Ernest Bywater 🚫
Updated:

Thinking about this subject and some of the content in the responses, the only things I can think of that may help attract some of the glitzy mobile users would be to add:

(a) some fancier background and icon graphics, especially to the mobile version and to expand the splash screen to have the Preview Site and Story Showcase links to four by having a Mobile view option and a Computer view option for each link right there so those wanting a glitzy mobile view can go straight to it.

(b) a more obvious mobile option icon with a text notation about it being optimized for mobile devices.

Replies: Not_a_ID

Not_a_ID 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

(a) some fancier background and icon graphics, especially to the mobile version and to expand the splash screen to have the Preview Site and Story Showcase links to four by having a Mobile view option and a Computer view option for each link right there so those wanting a glitzy mobile view can go straight to it.

You're "expected" to have Javascript auto-detect the browser and auto-adjust for their chosen platform. Well and good for a site that employs dozens of people to track stuff like that, or someone paying a service to "handle it for them" but more generally option #1 is limited to major corporations, and option #2 usually results in poor quality user experiences in my experience.

But people seem to favor "pretty and/or slick" user interface over function. People can be very stupid at times, but that isn't news.

Replies: Ernest Bywater Keet

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Not_a_ID

People can be very stupid at times, but that isn't news.

One of my favourite quotes is:

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity!"

Keet 🚫

@Not_a_ID

You're "expected" to have Javascript auto-detect the browser and auto-adjust for their chosen platform. Well and good for a site that employs dozens of people to track stuff like that, or someone paying a service to "handle it for them" but more generally option #1 is limited to major corporations,

Not really. The "new" way to develop is 'mobile first' and expand if there is more screen estate available. You don't need a big corporation for that. What you do need is javascript/jquery and if you want to make it easy something like bootstrap. The days of specific development for IE6 are thankfully over. There are still some minor differences between browsers but nothing that would require dozens of developers and the OS makes very little difference nowadays. Check out ReaderInfo.net. That's made by a hobbyist when it comes to web-development but it does look good and scales depending on the device you use or when you resize the browser window. But that site is created that way from the start. Refactoring a site like SOL to work like that is a huge job though.

Eddie Davidson 🚫

If its not broken - do not fix it.

I think that this system works great - especially for chapter stories.

The person who had mixed feelings probably did get some trolls bothering them. Trolls are everywhere - no matter what system you get. Downvoting trolls, spammy comments, etc. I get that too.

That being said - my only concern is always that you probably get frustrated at times with confusing authors who name titles wrong or do weird formatting. Or people who constantly submit tweaks to their stories instead of editing it. (I tweak and want to resubmit but I try to limit that).

As to phone, the experience has been pretty good on phone. I still prefer PC version.

I think the only changes I would even consider:

1. No need to archive old stories - infinite space these days. Just move them somewhere.

2. More interactive events are great - writing contests/themes. No prizes needed other than the joy of sharing writing.

3. Maybe change the requirement to be a 'paid author submission' behind the paywall to stories that really have met a criteria (or from authors who met a criteria) of providing quality content.

Replies: Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Eddie Davidson

If its not broken - do not fix it.

I think that this system works great - especially for chapter stories.

I'm not about to change what works. Search and story handling can't get done any better.

What needs fixing is a fresher interface and graphics and maybe initial on-boarding of new users so that they feel oriented right away instead of having to read a crowded interface.

That being said - my only concern is always that you probably get frustrated at times with confusing authors who name titles wrong or do weird formatting. Or people who constantly submit tweaks to their stories instead of editing it. (I tweak and want to resubmit but I try to limit that).

Don't worry about that part at all. It's not cumbersome for us to deal with and it makes us feel better as it makes the stories better, raising the general quality of the site.

1. No need to archive old stories - infinite space these days. Just move them somewhere.

They don't go anywhere. They just go behind the paywall, helping the site stay afloat.

2. More interactive events are great - writing contests/themes. No prizes needed other than the joy of sharing writing.

Noted.

3. Maybe change the requirement to be a 'paid author submission' behind the paywall to stories that really have met a criteria (or from authors who met a criteria) of providing quality content.

I would never do that. Only authors themselves can decide whether to put their stories behind the paywall. (well, and the archiver).

Replies: Dominions Son Eddie Davidson

Dominions Son 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

What needs fixing is a fresher interface and graphics and maybe initial on-boarding of new users so that they feel oriented right away instead of having to read a crowded interface.

If you are going to do that, you might want to at least consult with someone who does graphic design for the web.

On the mobile end, if there are enough users accessing the site that way, it might be worth it to actually build an app.

Eddie Davidson 🚫

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I would never do that. Only authors themselves can decide whether to put their stories behind the paywall. (well, and the archiver).

To clarify, I meant IF they want to do that - they first have to demonstrate quality of writing and popularity.

Replies: Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

@Eddie Davidson

To clarify, I meant IF they want to do that - they first have to demonstrate quality of writing and popularity.

It's not so simple. Some authors post their stories and put them behind the firewall for protection (limited access) and to have the original time stamp as a proof of copyright date.

I added the 'Hide behind paywall' button at the request of two authors.

shaddoth1 🚫

I agree wiht the grump. If you want to play with the phone app to make it livelier, that's fine by us with limited imagintions, the full blown comp version. Leave be.
Pretty please.

Shad

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@shaddoth1

I agree wiht the grump. If you want to play with the phone app to make it livelier, that's fine by us with limited imagintions, the full blown comp version. Leave be.
Pretty please.

It's not so easy... If you really want to update one than you will have to do the other too. Why? Because the last thing you want to do is keep maintaining two different code-bases.
The 'modern' way of web development is 'mobile first' which means you design for the smallest device first and let the software scale up the result for larger devices. Doing that will definitely mean a different look for the full computer site. On the other hand it doesn't have to mean that it gets worse. If you look at the ReaderInfo.net site with your "full blown" computer you see a full web page. Now scale back the browser window width and at some point you will see that the view automatically changes to what you would see on a smaller device. That site was designed with 'mobile first' in mind so there's just a single code base for all devices. The problem for Lazeez is that it's an existing and very large site so just starting from scratch with a 'mobile first' design is a job that would take a very long time. Since it's a commercial site I'm not sure the required effort will pay itself back. Maybe if he limits a new design to just the reader part, the part that can attract new readers, i.e. a few new paying members.

damoose 🚫
Updated:

So... three things that are really appealing to me are: the descriptions, that 6 or 8 line summary, two, the story size information, and finally the reading flow... end of chapter, hit the page end and you get links the will send to the author blog, email next chapter, next book, author story library, etc.

It is simple and clean.

While some other sites, have some of these, this is the only site that combines them all. It is such a simple concept.

Someone said form follows function, what functions do you want as a reader? Good UX is UX design that appears simple.

The 'Top' lists are very useful! And the home page with the what's new, what's updated, what blog entries, etc.

As for graphic design, the site is a bit too 'blocky' is the word I would use. While I understand the whole responsive design thing, the current layout is a big bunch data in delineated blocks. While all websites do this it is hidden from the eye.

Search bar at the top, links grouped into dynamic drop downs organized by function, no outlined data blocks along the sides of the pages, no title bars for each individual main page entry, like Serial Update or New Story (that information should be there, just not separated from the story titles and description... think top 50 complete serials list), no shadows ;-). Think a flatter graphic design where spacing is a much apart of the section delineation as lines around blocks of text.

Links to off site and items not directly related to this site live at the page bottom, or maybe across the to depending on the emphasis you want.

And the colours might need a little work, white with green tabs... maybe white with blue tabs that are outlined not solid, the premier stories indicators are fine... but that advanced search dialogue??? Really??? :D

Replies: Not_a_ID

Not_a_ID 🚫

@damoose

So... three things that are really appealing to me are: the descriptions, that 6 or 8 line summary, two, the story size information, and finally the reading flow... end of chapter, hit the page end and you get links the will send to the author blog, email next chapter, next book, author story library, etc.

I'm up for a bit of hybridization on this. The "never-ending scroll" is sometimes nice, but also induces a love/hate situation in time. Something that indicates you've hit a "page"/chapter break point that can be bookmarked is a huge plus in my book.

But the never-ending scroll with no way to tell where you're at(and thus unable to easily resume should you close that browser window) is death for longer stories.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Yeesh! Online Forums Much More Active than SOL

WARNING! ADULT CONTENT...