Forum: Author Hangout

Joe and Michael,

I've been using Google with Safari. And not in incognito mode. So I already did the searches.

I'm guessing your searches turned up any number of vendors for the products depicted.

And games. When I forgot what a bipod was called (all I could think of was tripod but the Barrett M107 sniper rifle has a bipod), I googled something like how to keep a sniper rifle steady. Most of the responses had to do with some video game that once you reach a certain level you are more steady.

I couldn't find out how hand grenades are attached to a soldier's uniform. I remember WWII movies where they pull them off and pull the pin and throw them. But I don't know how they're attached. I didn't bother attaching them to the character's body.

I couldn't find out how hand grenades are attached to a soldier's uniform. I remember WWII movies where they pull them off and pull the pin and throw them. But I don't know how they're attached. I didn't bother attaching them to the character's body.

Over the years I've seen many thousands of photos of combat troops from various countries and units but not once have I seen a soldier with grenades attached to their clothing the way they depict them in the war movies. The Germans did have their stick grenades hanging from their belts, but those were designed to be carried that way.

I have read accounts of troops from WWII, Vietnam, and Korea where they mention carrying shoulder bags with grenades in them or having grenades in pockets or munitions holders on their belts etc. The modern combat vests are so festooned with pouches I'd be very surprised if some of them weren't specifically for grenades.

where they mention carrying shoulder bags with grenades in them

Actually, that's what I have. I have a belt worn around his waist with holders for magazines for his Glock 19. I don't know if they make anything like that, but that's what I came up with. The Glock is tucked into his pants' waistband.

And then I have a canvas pouch with the extra magazines for his assault rifle (a FN SCAR). I put the two grenades in that pouch. I have him put the pouch's strap around his neck and put his arm through it so that it's on his hip and can be held from bouncing while he's running (by him pressing it to his hip with one hand while holding his assault rifle with the other).

I put the two grenades in that pouch.

One of the things I read was when a soldier in WWII had a bag with about 20 grenades in it he loaded the bag from the boxes of grenades at base by simply taking them from the box and putting them into his bag, but he left the cardboard tube each grenade was packed in on them until he took them out of the bag to use them. I don't know if they always packed the grenades that way, or if they still do, but it made sense to stop and accidental activation in transit.

I don't know if they always packed the grenades that way, or if they still do, but it made sense to stop and accidental activation in transit.

The answer is yes to those questions. My freshman ROTC class was taught by a Field Artillery Major who was, to put it slightly, was nearly deaf as a post. He told us that in Vietnam, they would only have a certain amount of ammo ready at any one time, with the rest still in shipping or otherwise protected containers due to weather. Obviously if there was an attack planned, they would get more ready, but if something big brewed up, he told us it was a bitch to keep ammo flowing to the guns.

He also had a couple of slides on why artillery always cleared a free fire zone in front of the guns if they had the time, and why it was a bad idea to charge field artillery. They called it a mad minute - the tubes were lowered to about -2 degrees elevation, they'd fire beehive rounds if they had a chance, otherwise anything and everything went down the tubes as quickly as possible. Sustained fire rate - what they could shoot and keep shooting for a couple of hours - was 3 rounds per minute. He said at one point they were doing 10 - one every 6 seconds.

Since the alternative was to get overrun, that worked. And if you wonder what a beehive round is - think think 8,000 nails (flechettes) being fired at you. He had some pictures of pieces of NV soldiers nailed to trees, it just tore them totally apart.

The answer to that question is surely 'no'? Grenades are normally transported in two separate containers, one for the casing and the other for the detonators. The two being assembled just before use.

It would help if Switch Blade were to provide a period. Things were done differently in WWW1/2,Nam, as they are done now.

It would help if Switch Blade were to provide a period.

Current time.

Lincoln Steele was an Army Ranger/Special Ops/assassin guy but now a civilian private eye. I chose those weapons because I googled Army Ranger weapons. I thought it best for him to use what he's comfortable with.

I'm still wondering if the FN SCAR is the correct assault rifle because it's semi-automatic only (I think that means a single shot at a time) and the bad guys have MP5 submachine guns. But it looked like a badass weapon a Ranger would use. And he could always pick up a submachine gun from a fallen bad guy.

I'm about to write the fight scene now. So far he killed the two look-out guards on a second floor balcony with the sniper rifle and ran the 200 yards to the mason wall surrounding the compound. I have to figure out how to get him inside.

In the first Lincoln Steele novel ("Steele Justice"), Steele met a government guy in a more secretive organization than the CIA. The joke was they were the only government organization without an acronym. Anyway, Steele calls this guy to get him the weapons in Mexico where he's going after the bad guys (he carried his Glock 19, ankle gun, and knife across the border, but didn't want to push it). So he asked for a sniper rifle, assault rifle, a lot of loaded magazines for his Glock and the assault rifle, and had them throw in 2 grenades just in case. When he was taken into the hidden weapons room he saw a shoulder RPG hanging on the wall but felt it would do too much damage and he didn't know who was in the compound who could be collateral damage. The grenade would do much less damage. And it was only for just-in-case-he-needed-it.

Grenades are normally transported in two separate containers, one for the casing and the other for the detonators. The two being assembled just before use.

Just before use means that at the supply depot, someone puts them together. That's not something you're going to do in the field while someone is shooting at you.

When I meant 'Just before use' I meant when you are about to go out on patrol. It depends on the type of camp you are in. Some have a designated armory (even if it is just a shipping container), some camps aren't big enough and you keep your weapon on you at all times (or have a mate look after it when you go for a shower). Normally you 'lock and load' as some would say, at a specially designated area at the entrance's to camp when you leave camp (where you also unload and clear the weapon on return). A grenade body is pretty harmless by itself, its the det-handle that's the danger. And yes, since grenades used to be (still might be, I don't know) were shipped in regular ammo boxes, if you ran out in a battle, you simply opened the ammo box with the body, opened the one with the dets, screwed the two together, and threw. To say that it's not something you would do whilst someone is firing at you is like saying you wouldn't change mag or clear a stoppage whilst someone is firing at you.

EDIT: I 'phoned a friend' who has more experience with grenades than me. Once primed, grenades aren't dismantled again on return from patrol, but once back in the sangar, they are removed from webbing pouches and stored in ammo boxes in the magazine till next patrol or lacking a magazine, kept by the individual issued them. Grenades are ALWAYS shipped in two parts (casing/Det) in separate ammo boxes.

They are called magazine holsters.

Good to know. Although mine must have been custom made. They go all around the belt, like bullets in an old West gun holster.

Thanks.

I couldn't find out how hand grenades are attached to a soldier's uniform.

Modern soldier? Combat vests I've used have pouches for grenades, closed with a flap with velcro.

I couldn't find out how hand grenades are attached to a soldier's uniform. I remember WWII movies where they pull them off and pull the pin and throw them.

On the belt portion of our LBE (load bearing equipment - this shoulder straps clipped to the belt so the weight was more on our shoulders and the belt wouldn't fall down), we carried ammo pouches that had grenade straps on them. You could carry 3 magazine in the pouch and get the cover closed, and 2 grenades were held on by small straps on the outside.

http://armysurpluswarehouse.com/m16-ammo-pouch/

What you saw in the movies was typically just that, in the movies. One of the problems with carrying grenades tied to your clothes with string was that if you got into hand to hand combat, well, your opponent could pull the pin on one of them, kick you away, and you're dead.

If you were going into battle, typically you had a pouch that you simply carried several grenades in, over your shoulder, like you would a bunch of baseballs. (Only a lot heavier).

make absolutely sure your DNS is not provided by your ISP

Not enough, for instance if I try to access asstr.org or the Pirate bay in Belgium, I'm redirected to a Law enforcment web site. It's probalby the same in UK it's done by the ISP by intercepting UDP DNS traffic independently of the DNS server I use.

My ISP cannot intercept DNS if I am using a VPN. Not possible. Period. All the traffic is encrypted and exits from a node outside my ISPs control.

Doing that guarantee your traffic is intecepted by the NSA most VPNs and TOR nodes are operated by the NSA or China...

And yet, some are not, and you can find them if you know what you're doing. Chaining VPNs is a protection against this as well.

majority of troops will never even see one, let alone throw one.

I threw a grenade in basic training. I have no idea how far it went since as soon as I threw it I ducked behind the sandbags (or whatever was there to protect us).

I did mention the recoil of the sniper rifle.

The suppressor quieted the blast, but the recoil slammed back into Steele's shoulder.

I watched several videos of the Barrett being fired, some with the suppressor and some without. He's shooting from around 200 yards away so I'm assuming the people in the compound wouldn't hear it.

I watched several videos of the Barrett being fired, some with the suppressor and some without. He's shooting from around 200 yards away so I'm assuming the people in the compound wouldn't hear it.

From the research I did on the Barrett there is now way you can effectively suppress the sound of any of their heavy calibre guns. Yes, you can reduce the noise and make it sound like it's further away, but the sound will still carry for about a mile. One person i corresponded with said the only benefit from using a suppressor on a 50 cal is it confuses the people as to where the sound came from due to the lower frequency echoing more. he said the special flash suppressor was more effective at hiding where you fired from than the usual flash suppressor or any of the sound suppressors.

Apparently you have to drop the charge and the velocity to cut the sound right down on them big suckers.

A lot of snipers say they prefer the Barrett M 98B because it's a lot less kick, a much lighter weapon to carry,a higher muzzle velocity, and they argue about which has the longer range and accuracy. The only advantage the 50 has over the 338 is the heavier round having a higher hit on a protected target and the ability to fire the explosive round. Many see the 50 as anti-vehicle while the 338 is anti-personnel.

Many see the 50 as anti-vehicle while the 338 is anti-personnel.

Good to know. I'll check it out.

But in the videos with the compressor it hardly made a sound. Real loud without the suppressor, though.

Barrett M 98B

That's bolt action. I needed Steele to make 3 quick shots.

One guard was leaning on the balcony railing, resting on his forearms and staring out at the vast space beyond the mason wall surrounding the compound. The other one stood next to him peering through binoculars. Through the scope, Steele aimed the rifle at the leaning guard's face. He remembered what a sniper instructor had told him. Aim small, miss small. He aimed at the guard's nose. He took a deep breath, released the air slowly, and gently squeezed the trigger. The suppressor quieted the blast, but the recoil slammed back into Steele's shoulder. Before the guard's face blew apart from the .50 caliber bullet, Steele had already shifted the rifle a little to the right and fired twice into the standing guard's chest. The first went through his heart. The second hit him in the throat. Steele viewed the two men through the scope, both sprawled on the balcony floor having been propelled backward. Unmoving.

He couldn't do that with a bolt action.

That's bolt action. I needed Steele to make 3 quick shots.

You'd be surprised how fast you can work a bolt action when you're experienced with it. I can fire a bolt action .303 faster than someone can with a semi automatic .303.

However, what sort of distance are you talking about for the sniper shot? There are a lot of sniper rifles other than the Barrett range. The big thing against the use of the M107 is the length of the monster and its weight - 30 pounds and 57 inches with the longer barrel preferred for longer shot accuracy. Also the damn bullets are big, bulky, and heavy.

The official designation of the M107 is - M107, is a recoil-operated, semi-automatic anti-materiel sniper system.

You may wish to consider something like these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_PSG1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_sniper_rifle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse_rifle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M39_Enhanced_Marksman_Rifle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M25_Sniper_Weapon_System

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Semi_Automatic_Sniper_System

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight%27s_Armament_Company_SR-25

The big thing against the use of the M107 is the length of the monster and its weight - 30 pounds and 57 inches with the longer barrel preferred for longer shot accuracy. Also the damn bullets are big, bulky, and heavy.

Not a problem. Steele takes it out of the trunk of his car, sets it up, takes the three shots, and leaves it.

I chose that rifle because I found it under Army Ranger weapons. I was looking for familiarity. The shot is around 200 yards.

The shot is around 200 yards.

hell, there's dozens of Semi-automatic Designated Sniper Rifles that shoot that distance. Heck decent semi-automatic .22 with a good scope can make that shot, and with a suppressor firing sub-sonic rounds they'll never hear a thing.

I chose that rifle because I found it under Army Ranger weapons. I was looking for familiarity. The shot is around 200 yards.

With my scope sighted AR-15, I can hit 1/2" groups at 200 yards without an issue, firing 5.56 mm. And have done so.

The reason the .50 is considered an anti-material round as opposed to an anti-personnel round is the sheer amount of damage it does when it hits you. It's like the discussion of shooting someone in the hand with a .38 or 9mm round versus shooting them with a .45. The 9mm puts a hole in the hand. The .45 rips it off at the wrist.

You hit someone with a .50, and they're DRT - dead right there - not really a need to shoot them twice. Snipers have shot people THROUGH concrete block walls and you know it's a kill from the blood splatter you see in the video. If it's a shoulder shot, then the arm is pretty much getting ripped OFF at the shoulder. A chest shot and half the spinal column is getting sent out through the back.

You can shoot a vehicle in the engine and it will punch halfway THROUGH the engine block. Thus, in combat, you're not shooting at the soldier, you're shooting at his equipment. The button on his uniform, or his helmet. At least that's what we were told in our classes on articles of war.

The reason the .50

I switched to the SR-25 M110 (made by Knight's Armament Co).

The caliber is compatible with 7.62×51mm NATO cartridges (whatever that is).

The reason he shot twice for the second guy is simple. He took aim at the first one and hit him right in the nose. But once the shot was fired, he didn't have the time to aim. He shifted the rifle to the other guy and fired twice.

This is what I found on the M110:

Winner of the U.S. Army award as one of the "Best 10 Inventions" of 2007, the M-110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System (M-110 SASS) is a precision 7.62mm NATO caliber, gas-operated rifle that is highly acclaimed for its battlefield performance. The rifle's inherent accuracy, quick-change 20-round magazine, ambidextrous controls, abundant MIL-STD-1913 rail mounting capabilities, and highly effective sound suppressor system all contribute to the system's combat success.

Steele's been out of the army for a while so this is probably what he used when he was in. And I like the "highly effective sound suppressor system."

5.56mm = .223
7.62mm = .30

However, don't make the mistake of firing ammo loaded for 5.56 NATO down a .223 Remington barrel. You can fire .223 ammo down a 5.56 barrel all day long. While the pressure difference due aren't much - they can and will make a difference.

Military forces are usually loath to leave a weapon behind like that.

He's not in the military any longer. And he asked the CIA-type guy if he wanted the weapons back. The answer was no.

I used to absolutely DETEST when the armory occasionally decided to re-issue the rifles to everyone. Not only did you have to re-remember your butt number and serial number, but you also had to find out the quirks of the rifle, did it pull up/down left/right? Was it prone to stoppages? How out of whack were the sights? etc etc.

Before the guard's face blew apart from the .50 caliber bullet, Steele had already shifted the rifle a little to the right and fired twice into the standing guard's chest.

You can't do that with a .50 at 200 yards.

A: the M107 travels around 2,800 feet per second, so at 600 feet the bullet will be there in less than a quarter of a second. You'd still be fighting the recoil.

B: The moment the first round at the second guard hits him he's on the way to the ground before the behind the wall at a fast rate from the impact of the first bullet that hit him.

The moment the first round at the second guard hits him he's on the way to the ground

That's why the second shot hit him in the throat.

That's why the second shot hit him in the throat.

He'd be going down much faster than that once hit by a .50 at 200 yards. I don't know if this is actual war footage or a re-enactment, but the responses look to be very real. Watch how the first guy hit is pounded back, and remember that shoot is a lot further away than 200 yards.

typo edit

Yet one of the longest confirmed sniper kill is just over 2,700 yards with a .338 Lapua Magnum. However, that was with the L115A3 by Accuracy International.

Australian sniper.

No, it was a Brit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Harrison_(sniper)

quote

In November 2009, Harrison consecutively struck two Taliban machine gunners south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd) using a L115A3 Long Range Rifle. In a BBC interview, Harrison reported it took about nine shots for him and his spotter to range the target. Then, he reported, his first shot "on target" was a killing shot followed consecutively by a kill shot on a second machine gunner. The bodies were later found by Afghan National Police looking to retrieve the weapon (which had already been removed). The first Taliban was shot in the gut and the other through the side. Later in the day an Apache helicopter hovered over the firing position, using its laser range finder to measure the distance to the machine-gun position, confirming it was the longest kill in history at the time.

In the reports, Harrison mentions the environmental conditions were perfect for long range shooting: no wind, mild weather and clear visibility.

end quote

Do they still make Barrett sniper rifles in the .338 since they introduced their custom designed .416?

Yes, the M 98B is still produced and widely used. It's primary duty is listed as an anti-personnel weapon while all of the 50 cals are listed with a primary duty as an anti-materiel weapons.

.416 Barrett

The .416 Barret round is a proprietary wildcat cut-down version of a .50 BMG round which requires only a change of barrel to use it. It was designed in response to a special request for a special situation by the US DoD. At the moment it seems there are only the Barrett M82, M99 and the Armalite AR-50 that have .416 Barrett barrels for their guns. The bullet has about 65% of the energy of the .50 cal despite having a bullet weight of about 55% of the .50 cal and only an extra 5% in muzzle velocity over the .50 cal. I can't find any easy to find stats on their comparative range or accuracy. However, the M1022 and XM1022 .50 cal non-armor piercing rounds are still touted as the most accurate long range round for the range of .50 cal rifles. As the .416 Barrett is listed as only a alternative barrel for some .50 cal rifles they're seen as being part of that range.

There's an interesting difference in training. In the UK only the infantry training course gets to throw grenades, all other training (Marines might be different, so can't comment on that)units just train with the SA80 and that's pretty much it, no GPMG, mortar or any other interesting bits of kit. When we are trained to throw a grenade, we are taught to ensure the handle is trapped between the web of thumb and forefinger (so no accidental release of lever), you check behind (to ensure area is clear should you drop the f'king thing) then throw forward and watch till the grenade lands, once the grenade lands, THEN you take cover. This is supposedly to ensure that you know where the frigging thing is if it doesn't go off...

As I said in my OP only infantry get to play with them, other army units are not trained in their use, and when I say 'other units' I mean medics, drivers, stores, dog handlers (fetch!-not!)Port and maritime, chefs (RLC), mechanics (REME) Engineers(RE)etc etc, Which is why I said that only half the army ever gets to play with them (I only ever threw one in ten years service, only ever fired a mortar and LAW in infantry training, and avoided being anywhere near a GPMG- way too much weight to carry, and cleaning the f'ker was a ball ache. At the time only SF and infantry had SUSAT sights, everyone else had iron sights (unless they had done the infantry course or P company/equivalent). I think that has now changed and most of the other non infantry units have SUSAT for Operational tours.

only infantry get to play with them

When I was in the army there were two parts to the training: 1) basic training and 2) AIT (advanced training).

I believe everyone went through the same basic training. That's where I threw a grenade, shot an M16, and would have shot an M60 machine gun if I wasn't in the hospital when they did it.

After basic I went to my advanced training which was a process photographer in an offset printing unit (made maps). There were only 3 offset printing units in the army. When I got back from training I found out my unit was changed to the signal corps and I was never trained on that.

Ahh I see. The UK is slightly different. Everyone does Basic (Which used to be 12 weeks but I think it's double that now-Nintendo generation) which focused on ironing, PT, More ironing, basic weapon handling (SA80 only), rules of engagement, more f'cking ironing, basic first aid, chemical/biological warfare, marching pretty, and some more ironing because nothing wins a battle quite like sharp creases.

Once that Basic course has finished you were then sent off to do your trade course. Cooks went on to learn how to burn things, store people to learn how to lose things etc etc. These courses were trade dependent with regards to time. I think the store-person (got to be gender neutral these days) course was something like a week and then they were shipped off to their active units. Infantry men had a further 12 week course before being sent to their units. Engineers had a further 12 week course on fortifications, breaching, water supply and blowing shit up.

Potentially, you could be in the UK army for 15 weeks and find yourself in a warzone. I vaguely remember working with the either the Belgium or Dutch army (memory is going) and you had to have been in their army for something like three years before they deemed you competent enough to be sent to a warzone. I can see their point, as the UK lost more men to American friendly fire than we did to Saddams forces in the first Gulf war. The second biggest killer of UK troops was road traffic accidents...

That is true, but you only need a couple of rounds on a pistol for the barrel to get hot, so if you are working on the 'double tap' principle, then it would only take two targets in close succession for the barrel to get hot, and since most professionals work on worst case scenario, they wouldn't be putting it down their pants, that's only done in movies or when yobs want to appear 'gangsta'. Since the character is a professional, it would be holstered properly.

My understanding of suppressors is that they work by slowing down the velocity of the round. Which means fitting one would be detrimental to range and stopping power. Outside of Hollywood movies, I'm not sure the slight reduction in noise (and it is very slight)would be worth the trade off. It's why they are not fitted to to regular troops weapons (in the UK)and to be honest, I have never seen them fitted to SF weapons in the field either. What is important, is the flash suppressor, as that DOES make a real world difference.

Also, not sure a professional would carry a rifle as well as a sniper rifle.

It wasn't a combat mission. It was one guy. He was going after a drug lord in his well-manned compound. The compound was surrounded by a masonry wall and there were two guards on a second floor balcony. Steele had to cover 200 yards to get to the wall. The guards on the balcony had binoculars and would spot him in the open.

So he drove up to a bend in the dirt road that led to the house where the lookout guys couldn't see his car. At the bend was an outcropping that gave him some cover. He took the sniper rifle out of the trunk, set it up in the outcropping, and killed the two guards on the balcony.

He didn't carry two rifles. He left the sniper rifle there and ran with the assault rifle and his Glock in his pants and extra ammo for both.

Is the character going to retrieve the rifle or abandon it?

Abandon it. He asked the secretive government man if he wanted the equipment back. He said no and that it can't be traced back to them. As to fingerprints, most of what Steele did was classified and so were his fingerprints. No one could trace it back to him. Anyway, the Mexican authorities wouldn't really care if someone took out this drug lord.

a special ops type would know that

It's for dramatic effect.

And it actually works out well. He unloads his trunk and lays the assault rifle down. He sets up the sniper rifle and kills the two bad guys. Then he leaves the sniper rifle, grabs the assault rifle, and runs to the compound.

Which is why I say he would just use the FN SCAR, it is perfectly capable of making 200 yard shots so there is no need for a dedicated sniper rifle.

What about the bipod on the sniper rifle? The assault rifle doesn't have that.

No doubt Big Brother would be watching and having a laugh.
Meantime Big Sister would be watching something more interesting

Bottom line is the scenario doesn't pass a reality check.

Is that directed to shooting it on horseback or my novel?

I switched sniper rifles so it's now that NATO ammo which I don't think is .50 caliber with the destructive force you mention.

Then there is the second shot idea. Unless he blew off a pinky with the first shot, the guy is dead with the first. At 200 yards, a .50 is just getting warmed up. At that range it will have between 11,000-11,700 ft/lbf energy dependent upon the round in question. No vest I know of can stop that. It will take off limbs, or kill in one shot center-mass.

He said somewhere in here that the second shot was at someone else. You're absolutely correct about the vest - Level IV hard armor is rated against a single .30 round, but a .50 will just blow through it. What's interesting is that a Level IIA vest will protect you against Dirty Harry - his .44 Magnum pistol round won't penetrate.

And of course, the minor detail that hydrostatic shock will kill you DRT anyway. Go look at how MUCH ballistic gel a .50 will penetrate. You - the person behind you - and probably the next one person, too.