Forum: Author Hangout

The most dangerous book

Uther_Pendragon 🚫

Some guy once wrote: "I've never known a woman to be seduced by a book." Obviously, he wasn't thinking of woman writers.

Because all of us, male and female, have been seduced by the Thesaurus.

I use the thesaurus a lot, and I have a sequence of rules for dealing with it.

1) Don't take a word that you don't recognize.

Generally, I use it when I have an idea for a thing, but my word for it is not the best word for that context.

"The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is the difference between lightning and a eelighni9ng bug."
S. Clemens.

So, I go through the words in the same block of the thesaurus until I hit the word that means just what I need there.

2) When breaking the first rule, use a dictionary.

The thesaurus is not a list of synonyms. (English has hardly any synonyms; "home" means something different from what "residence.") A thesaurus is a list of similar ideas.

When I'm writing a historical story and I need a carriage, I look up "carriage" in the thesaurus. It has a list of carriages, and they are different. I can, however, consult 2 dictionaries and get a picture in one and the approximate time that the word came into usage -- which is often the time the vehicle came into usage -- in the OED.

I don't know the differences among a cabriolet, a shay, and a Victoria. The dictionaries do, though.

Replies: awnlee jawking Vincent Berg

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Uther_Pendragon

The thesaurus is not a list of synonyms.

From Oxford Dictionaries

NOUN

A book that lists words in groups of synonyms and related concepts.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son Uther_Pendragon

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Alternate definition: A book of extinct words. :)

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@Dominions Son

extinct

Thesaurus sounds like a dinosaur to me.

"-saurus
combining form
forming genus names of reptiles, especially extinct ones.
example: stegosaurus"

Replies: awnlee jawking Vincent Berg

awnlee jawking 🚫

@richardshagrin

Thesaurus sounds like a dinosaur to me.

"-saurus
combining form
forming genus names of reptiles, especially extinct ones.
example: stegosaurus"

The/theo is a prefix meaning God. So a thesaurus is an extinct lizard god.

AJ

Replies: imnotwrong

imnotwrong 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

The/theo is a prefix meaning God. So a thesaurus is an extinct lizard god.

AJ

Up from the depths, thirty stories high, breathing fire, he stands in the sky!

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@imnotwrong

Up from the depths, thirty stories high, breathing fire, he stands in the sky!

Only to be slapped with an injunction and an environmental impact questionnaire...

Vincent Berg 🚫

@richardshagrin

Drop me a line, as there's a GREAT cartoon circulating among authors/editors online about the dreaded 'Thesaurus' you may enjoy.

Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@awnlee jawking

A book that lists words in groups of synonyms and related concepts.

AJ

Roget emphasized the "related concepts" aspect.
I've seen later books that were mere lists of claimed synonyms.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Uther_Pendragon

Roget emphasized the "related concepts" aspect.

That's the categorisation system they use for their lists of synonyms.

I have an elderly copy of Roget and IMO it's so useless as to be a waste of space. My first choice these days is an on-line thesaurus - Powerthesaurus.

AJ

Replies: Uther_Pendragon Uther_Pendragon

Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That's the categorisation system they use for their lists of synonyms.

As I pointed out later in my post, Roget included types of carriages in one of his blocks (or paragraphs). If you think that "curricle" is really a synonym for "Victoria," then my advice is that you never write historical fiction.

"I have an elderly copy of Roget and IMO it's so useless as to be a waste of space."

That might be because your looking for a list of synonyms, and Roget definitely rarely provided that -- and then only by coincidence.

Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That's the categorisation system they use for their lists of synonyms.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Uther_Pendragon

That might be because your looking for a list of synonyms, and Roget definitely rarely provided that -- and then only by coincidence.

So claiming that it contains synonyms and antonyms on the cover and introduction is bogus?

Roget's thesaurus is laid out by concepts, but within those it lists synonyms and antonyms. It wouldn't be a thesaurus otherwise.

ETA Powerthesaurus lists 'victoria' as one of the potential synonyms for 'curricle', but it's well down the list showing it's a relatively poor match. If you don't already know what 'victoria' means, click on 'definition'.

AJ

Replies: Uther_Pendragon

Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@awnlee jawking

ETA Powerthesaurus lists 'victoria' as one of the potential synonyms for 'curricle', but it's well down the list showing it's a relatively poor match. If you don't already know what 'victoria' means, click on 'definition'.

So, the name for a particular kind of 4-wheeled carriage is synonymous with the name of a particular kind of 2-wheeled carriage.

I never knew that.

Still, however perfect the synonym, and awnlee jawking has assured us that they are synonyms, I would warn the rest reading this that when actually writing an actual story, that you cannot always use them interchangeably.

In a story, your characters might make a journey in a carriage, and might even hold a conversation during that journey.

In that case, the author needs to know whether there is a driver, in the victoria, who needs to be given direction and might overhear the conversation, or one of the characters has the reins in his hands, in the curricle.

However absolutely synonymous they are, an author must distinguish between the words.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Uther_Pendragon

So, the name for a particular kind of 4-wheeled carriage is synonymous with the name of a particular kind of 2-wheeled carriage.

Perhaps you should read what I wrote. It's a potential synonym because there's some overlap in meaning, although Powerthesaurus itself rates it as poor.

If you don't know what the words mean, click on 'definition'.

ETA - my copy of Roget's Thesaurus lists 'wheelbarrow' as a potential synonym of 'curricle'. Yes, that's definitely closer than 'victoria'!

AJ

Replies: Uther_Pendragon

Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@awnlee jawking

ETA - my copy of Roget's Thesaurus lists 'wheelbarrow' as a potential synonym of 'curricle'. Yes, that's definitely closer than 'victoria'!

If it's Roget's, it does NPT list that as a synonym.
It lists it in an arrangement of words of similar type, and it is.

You keep insisting that "Thesaurus" means list of synonyms, and then that this means that the author of the thesaurus, instead of you, are claiming that they are synonyms.

Really, it is you that claim that "kindergarten" is a synonym for "graduate school." Roget was never that stupid.

Replies: awnlee jawking richardshagrin

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Uther_Pendragon

You keep insisting that "Thesaurus" means list of synonyms, and then that this means that the author of the thesaurus, instead of you, are claiming that they are synonyms.

Roget appears to have been unaware of the term 'synonym' - like all trailblazers he used his own jargon. In his own words, his aim was to construct lists of 'alternatives' and 'opposites'.

However his editors and publishers use the term 'synonym' freely including on the cover of newer editions, although Roget's case the thesaurus comes with a hierarchical indexing system designed to result in quicker access to more appropriate synonyms, but by modern standards its archaic and restrictive. The English language doesn't have a neat hierarchy of meanings analogous to biological classifications.

"Ready the wheelbarrow, Smithers. I'm of a mind to drive over to Fairfield House and tup Lord Fotheringhaux's comely new parlourmaid."

AJ

richardshagrin 🚫
Updated:

@Uther_Pendragon

"kindergarten" is a synonym for "graduate school."

When I attended the University of Washington Balmer Hall, where the School of Business held classes was called by many "Balmer High School". And MBA classes were also held there.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Uther_Pendragon

Though I don't use it often, it's nice knowing where to find the power thesaurus site (for when you can't identify the correct alternate word.

But generally, since I've got a fairly large vocabulary, I often look up words I'm familiar with but don't use often, rather than searching for new words that express the same thing as other words do. Thus I don't see those words as ten-dollar words, since I'm already familiar with them. But as you suggested, the difference in meaning is often significant enough, it's worth using the specific 7.98 dollar word! 'D

Replies: Uther_Pendragon

Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@Vincent Berg

But generally, since I've got a fairly large vocabulary, I often look up words I'm familiar with but don't use often, rather than searching for new words that express the same thing as other words do.

I've got a decent vocabulary SOMEWHERE. I often can't get the word off the tip of my tongue.

I once got a good deal of negative comment about using "rictus" to describe a woman's expression during orgasm.

Replies: richardshagrin Vincent Berg awnlee jawking

richardshagrin 🚫

@Uther_Pendragon

"rictus"

That word needs a couple of "h" letters added after the c and s. rich tush.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Uther_Pendragon

I once got a good deal of negative comment about using "rictus" to describe a woman's expression during orgasm.

Ha-ha. I can definitely see that. While the expressions are similar, 'rictus' specifically refers to 'the frozen and/or locked expressions and positions of the dead', rather than the honest expressions of the living. So, yeah, you would get a LOT of flack for that. Again, it's a matter of getting the right definition for a specific usage, rather than the one which seems to 'best fit' at first glance. 'D

Replies: Dominions Son Uther_Pendragon

Dominions Son 🚫

@Vincent Berg

While the expressions are similar, 'rictus' specifically refers to 'the frozen and/or locked expressions and positions of the dead', rather than the honest expressions of the living.

There is a reason why the french refer to orgasm as "Le Petit Mort" (The Little Death). :)

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

There is a reason why the french refer to orgasm as "Le Petit Mort" (The Little Death).

Drat, you beat me to it :(

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Drat, you beat me to it :(

Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Ha-ha. I can definitely see that. While the expressions are similar, 'rictus' specifically refers to 'the frozen and/or locked expressions and positions of the dead', rather than the honest expressions of the living.

Do you have any sources for that? OTOH

OED:

A fixed grimace or grin: their faces were each frozen in a terrified rictus.

(Merriam) Webster's Third New International Dictionary:

1) The gape of the mouth of a bird.

2a) The mouth orifice.

2b) a gaping grin or grimace. (a face frozen in a grimace of terror.)

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Uther_Pendragon

I once got a good deal of negative comment about using "rictus" to describe a woman's expression during orgasm.

But it's a brilliant word to describe the expression during a 'little death'.

AJ

Replies: Vincent Berg joyR

Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

But it's a brilliant word to describe the expression during a 'little death'.

I'll grant that, but I think this is one instance where cliches are actually better than describing the scene. 'Little death' is not only perfectly descriptive, but it provides the proper context, which 'rictus' doesn't (unless you spend considerable time setting the scene up to deliver the one line).

Just drop in a little 'She appeared to be entering what the French call 'the little death', as he face took on a look of momentary rictus.'

It doesn't quite roll off the tongue, but it at least shows how the pet phrase provides just enough context to justify using the phrase. But somehow, lovers don't appreciate being told they look like a corpse! Even if they take it face value, they'll forever wonder whether you're planning on doing them in. 'D

joyR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

But it's a brilliant word to describe the expression during a 'little death'.

I'm not convinced. However.

It is a brilliant way to describe the expression of a woman who "lays back and thinks of England" as the saying went. Those women who 'suffer' doing their duty but take no enjoyment in the act.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@joyR

I think it's more realistic than women whose eyes roll back into their heads. Unless they have glass eyes, of course ;)

AJ

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Unless they have glass eyes, of course

She didn't see that cumming...

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The most dangerous book

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