Forum: Author Hangout

Speaking as a an ASSTR author of adult stories, I didn't flee the sight until hardware issues forced me to.

That could've been worded better. The site and site managers don't balk, but some of the readers are a bit bigoted and they show their colours at times.

True. ...and some of the biggest weirdos around here stick "u"s in the middle of innocent words like "colors". (...and just be grateful that I didn't make a joke about the site managers going "balk, balk, balk" like giant chickens. LOL)

Yes but you also forgot to include the following and maybe the reason why.,,,

36,523 = MA/FA or MA/fa or ma/Fa or ma/fa

Assuming the often quoted but vastly exaggerated claim that 10% of the population is homosexual, the site should have approximately 4,000 homosexual stories to be representational. But there are more than twice that number. OMG! SOL is a gay porn site!

Heh. Of the 42,311 stories currently on the site, 10,358 are LGBT. That makes it over 24% = SOL is 2 1/2 times more of a LGBT porn site!

Now I AM worried! To paraphrase the words of Gen. Turgidson in the movie "Dr. Strangelove", "Mr. President, we must not allow...a gay porn gap!"

It said SOL favors lesbian porn over gay porn and was asking for proof of that statement.

Porn in general has more FF than MM. I think FF tends to appeal to gay women, bisexual women, and hetro men... MM tends to appeal to gay men.

That's obviously speaking very generally, and there is nothing wrong with anyone liking or disliking either - as long as it's not spitefully.

Wider appeal = more people interested in both writing and reading the subject.

MM tends to appeal to gay men.

That is just completely wrong. The biggest group of creators and consumers of gay porn are straight females.

http://ffnresearch.blogspot.com/2011/03/fan-fiction-demographics-in-2010-age.html
78% of FanFiction.Net members are female

http://centrumlumina.tumblr.com/post/63208278796/ao3-census-masterpost
80% of "Archive of our own" (AO3) is Female, with only 4% male and the rest the specific transgender types.
AO3 was created specifically to serve as a place for LGBT fiction (mainly gay)
38% of the readers are hetero and 30% bisexual.

The Pornhub stat is meaningless because straight/bisexual women don't want to SEE the act, they want to imagine it, they want the romance.

There have been many good posts since I last posted, but I think I'll direct my reply to @sunkuwan.

The Pornhub stat is meaningless because straight/bisexual women don't want to SEE the act, they want to imagine it, they want the romance.

This makes complete sense to me.

I love lesbian porn and erotica but I approach them differently.

1) Porn - I want to watch one or two women having sex. I don't want to see a penis. I don't want to hear a man whisper direction off screen. It's a huge turn off for me, and I'll just move to the next video. I don't need a relationship, I just want to see and hear the act.

2) Erotica - I want the story to have a relationship between two women. I prefer a relationship that isn't filled with drama. Cheating/Betrayal of the relationship is a HUGE turn off. The relationship can include more than two women, but only if it's believable. The sex can include multiple people, though I prefer only the people in the relationship involved... Men can be in the story and in the sex scenes. But not the relationship. I sometimes even skim/skip sex scenes. It's about far more than the act.

Also, if you read stories coded FF, isn't it obvious which were written by a guy and which were written by a woman? Actually, those written by women are usually raunchier and much more descriptive.

Are we assuming that a writer is male or female because they fit our preconceptions of who which sex wrote the story? It's not easy to know if someone is male or female on the internet. I'm male, but I use a female pen name for example.

In other words, they are being quite literal when they say "it objectifys women" as it often has done just that: treats them as little more than objects or simple stage props. They might as well be blow-up dolls for all the attention given to them.

I don't really get this complaint, though I've heard it many times. It's not about objectifying women in general. It's not saying that women are just objects. (Note: Men in the same scenes are treated the same way)

In fact, that's exactly what I want from my porn... I'm LITERALLY paying people to pose, masturbate, and/or have sex because I think it's beautiful to watch. They are paid to become objects of beauty for some period of time. There is nothing wrong with that.

(On the very rare occasion I actually pay for porn)

I have many problems with the porn industry, but objectifying women isn't one of them.

It's also NOT what I want from my erotica.

2) Erotica - I want the story to have a relationship between two women. I prefer a relationship that isn't filled with drama. Cheating/Betrayal of the relationship is a HUGE turn off. The relationship can include more than two women, but only if it's believable. The sex can include multiple people, though I prefer only the people in the relationship involved... Men can be in the story and in the sex scenes. But not the relationship. I sometimes even skim/skip sex scenes. It's about far more than the act.

That is also my mantra while reading stories that are not complete stroke stories. After a while, I just skip the sex scenes if they don't open up with a kind of a different vibe or kink.

Are we assuming that a writer is male or female because they fit our preconceptions of who which sex wrote the story? It's not easy to know if someone is male or female on the internet. I'm male, but I use a female pen name for example.

On the internet, my default assumption is they're male until or unless demonstrated otherwise. I can't completely rule out the possibility that some of the author's I think are female actually are men. But for most of them, I'd be highly surprised to discover that to be the case.

In other words, they are being quite literal when they say "it objectifys women" as it often has done just that: treats them as little more than objects or simple stage props. They might as well be blow-up dolls for all the attention given to them.

I don't really get this complaint, though I've heard it many times. It's not about objectifying women in general. It's not saying that women are just objects. (Note: Men in the same scenes are treated the same way)

Not going to completely disagree, except that in most porn, the Guy is the one giving direction to the women and otherwise "being dominant" while the woman just takes it.

I don't fully hold to the "it objectifys them" argument either, particularly in many of the cases they have attempted to apply it(such as with Playboy in particular).

But that doesn't make it any less literally true, although I'd say being objectified as a work of art/thing of beauty is one thing. Being objectified as the living proxy of a blow-up doll is another. The differing ends of the spectrum on that are literally worlds apart.

Not going to completely disagree, except that in most porn, the Guy is the one giving direction to the women and otherwise "being dominant" while the woman just takes it.

As someone who prefers no men in the scene at all, and finds the only even slightly acceptable male role in my porn is under the heels of a dominant female having sex with another woman... I'll take you word for it.

I'd say being objectified as a work of art/thing of beauty is one thing. Being objectified as the living proxy of a blow-up doll is another.

I both are as the same thing as far as I'm concerned...

One just says it politely while the other says it rudely.

The phrase " ...proxy of a blow-up doll" is just the most insulting way to say " ...sensual beauty that people fantasize about having sex with."

I think we are going to just need to disagree on that subject.

As someone who prefers no men in the scene at all, and finds the only even slightly acceptable male role in my porn is under the heels of a dominant female having sex with another woman... I'll take you word for it.

I'm in the "I can do without the dudes in my porn" grouping as well.

But as to the guys getting dominated by women in porn, that is a kink category, and they are legion, that one is a little larger than most, with CFNM being a common form of it. But it is very much a niche all the same.

I'd say being objectified as a work of art/thing of beauty is one thing. Being objectified as the living proxy of a blow-up doll is another.

I both are as the same thing as far as I'm concerned...

One just says it politely while the other says it rudely.

Something/someone can be regarded as beautiful/attractive/praiseworthy without it moving into the realm of "I want to stick my penis in it."

The phrase " ...proxy of a blow-up doll" is just the most insulting way to say " ...sensual beauty that people fantasize about having sex with."

I think we are going to just need to disagree on that subject.

No "proxy of a blow up doll" was more literally an allusion to "anything with(or resembling) a hole will do." Which isn't a very good place to approach things from if you're giving a person the same amount of regard(or even less) as you would give to a fleshlight.

Something/someone can be regarded as beautiful/attractive/praiseworthy without it moving into the realm of "I want to stick my penis in it."

Art can be beautiful without sex entering into it at all. My favorite photo of my wife is of her coming out of the bathroom after a shower. Towels wrapped around her body and hair, a smile on her face. The picture isn't sexual or sensual. It's not even playful.

It's the woman I love, happy and contented with her life, truly beautiful... without sex being involved in any way. It always reminds me of how much I love her. Let's call this picture (A)

I have many memories of her being just a beautiful, and sex is involved, but she wouldn't want me sharing details. Lets call my favorite of these (B).

You seem to imply that (B) somehow bad, or at least "lesser". It's not. It's just a different kind of beauty. Just because "I want to stick my penis in her", doesn't make the second set "bad".

Well, both make me want to do that, but for different reasons... My point still stands though.

No "proxy of a blow up doll" was more literally an allusion to "anything with(or resembling) a hole will do."

By "anything" do you mean "another beautiful woman in the throes of ecstasy?" Because unless that's what you mean, I can't agree.

While we may not know anything about the woman in the scene other than how she looks, sounds, and acts during the scene, the same is true with Mona Lisa (though you can easily look up facts about either online).

I hate to point out what should be obvious, but Mona Lisa is completely interchangeable with many other women. It's not her real smile that is so famous. It's the techniques Leonardo used to create a painting that are important.

Da Vinci painted Mona Lisa in such a way that the eyes are the center of the viewer's attention and the mouth is the periphery. His sfumato technique ensured that both the eyes and the mouth were prominent features. When the viewer looks at the eyes, the mouth falls under the viewer's peripheral vision and therefore the features of the mouth are not clear, this along with a little shading at the cheek bones make the mouth look like a smile. But once the viewer focuses on the mouth (smile), the smile slowly disappears, as it was not meant to be a smile. That's the magic of Leonardo's skill and that's what made the Mona Lisa unique compared to other grand paintings.

She is literally interchangeable with any woman out there with the correct type of face and smile.

Just like porn stars are mostly interchangeable.

Which isn't a very good place to approach things from if you're giving a person the same amount of regard(or even less) as you would give to a fleshlight.

What are you talking about? Less regard than I'd give a fleshlight? I'm looking for beauty. I'm looking for the sight and sounds of a beautiful woman in the throws of sexual pleasure. That's not an insult to the women involved.

It doesn't imply that she is only good for sex. It doesn't imply that she is an object to be used. It doesn't imply that she is lesser.

It SHOULD be considered a compliment, but obviously our society doesn't look at it that way.

Don't excuse sexist male chauvinist attitudes by saying porn causes it.

Don't excuse sexist male chauvinist attitudes by saying porn causes it.

Pornography doesn't cause it. But some porn certainly tries to perpetuate it. It has little to do with it actually being porn, except it often is more blatant about it, plenty of other mediums achieve comparable ends.

It has little to do with it actually being porn, except it often is more blatant about it, plenty of other mediums achieve comparable ends.

I can definitely agree with that.

Yes I would love to see your evidence of your off-the-wall statement.

https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2017-year-in-review

Women's Favorite search term is Lesbian. It's searched about twice as often as the next biggest search term by women... lesbians scissoring.

Mens favorite is MILF. Lesbian is the 7th most popular search for men.

Neither list even includes gay...

===============

https://www.pornhub.com/insights/gay-porn-pride

Gay male content represents 6.3% of all pageviews in the United States

Gay porn viewers:

63% male

37% female

When you see that 26% of pornhubs visitors are women it's obvious that many women like gay porn. (Makes sense to me, I love lesbian porn)

===============

I'll stand my my statement, though I should amend it to:

MM tends to appeal to gay men and some women.

I think you are mistaking a "larger proportion of women" with "largest consumer"

That is just completely wrong. The biggest group of creators and consumers of gay porn are straight females.

My mostly anecdotal experience in the matter tends to agree with this. I have known more than a few women who were completely gaga over almost any flavor of Yaoi(M/M) they can find.

Much like straight males are okay with lesbians "because it's hot" and they want to participate in some form, straight women like Yaoi because they think "it is hot" and provides fodder for reverse-harem type scenarios. You need look no further than Amazon's marketplace for books with harems in them, at least from what I have seen, the "reverse harem" grouping is MUCH easier to find because Amazon's search tools are lousy for that.

While Wattpad has public demographic showing ~70% female, they don't (at least as far as I can tell) have anything about interest in different story types. So we really don't have any useful information there.

As I already mentioned, some women like gay porn. I even added "some women" to my statement. That said, I think MM is still primarily for gay men.

Far more women like lesbian, threesome, hentai, Big Dick, Ebony, Gangbang, Anal, MILF, Teen, and Hentai... but some do like gay porn. It's just so low on the list that it doesn't show up in the top fifteen.

I just know what they say in posts.

They provide stats proving that most of their readers are women, but where is anything about who reads which stories? I know there are at least 900 boyxboy stories, but that number isn't useful by itself.

How many stories are available in each category?
How popular is each category?

Are there 25,000 "boyxboy" stories and "1000" lesbian?
Are there 25,000 "lesbian" stories and "1000" boyxboy?

Is boyxboy the least popular category for readers? Is it the most popular?

Most important of all, what percentage of wattpad users that read boyxboy are male vs female?

Wattpad has at least 1000 boyxboy stories. - Fact
Wattpad users are 70% female. - Fact
Women read lots of boyxboy stories on Wattpad. - Opinion (unless you have stats I don't)

I'm not trying to say your wrong, I'm just saying that we (or at least I) don't have the needed information.

=========

I knew what Yaoi was, but didn't know that women are the target audience. It's good to know, and a point in the MM is for women camp.

That still doesn't change the fact that:

The average MM pornhub viewer is ~1.7 times more likely to be male than a female.
The average female pornhub viewer is at least twenty times more likely to watch something other than than gay sex - with lesbian sex the most popular result.

Wattpad has at least 1000 boyxboy stories. - Fact
Wattpad users are 70% female. - Fact
Women read lots of boyxboy stories on Wattpad. - Opinion (unless you have stats I don't)

I think you'll find that in respect to Yaoi type content, that it also is predominantly created by Women. Haven't seriously researched it, just going by anecdotal experience on the matter.

That is NOT saying that gay men aren't creating gay erotica/porn, just that a significant portion of what is there isn't by/for gay men. The target audience is female.

The average MM pornhub viewer is ~1.7 times more likely to be male than a female.

The average female pornhub viewer is at least twenty times more likely to watch something other than than gay sex - with lesbian sex the most popular result.

I think it should also be pointed out in this context that for women in particular, as it pertains to Yaoi(M/M) is it isn't so much the interest in male on male sex acts. It is in the idea of two men being that intimate with each other.

Which puts a different skew on Yaoi vs Yuri(F/F) for example. And matches up better with the PornHub numbers. There is a strong bias in favor of "being interested" in the female body being used sexually which is common to both genders for whatever reason. The interest in the male body with specific regards to sex is a very different matter.

Some of it undoubtedly cultural in nature, but I would still be inclined to suspect some evolutionary factors being in play there. "The male side" of reproduction isn't that big of a mystery, and carries few to no direct risks(that aren't social in nature) to the male. While the female side involves both internal genitals, much greater "reproductive risks" and has a lot more "mystery" built up around it.

That and one male can impregnate many women in short order, while the same doesn't completely work for women. Once you factor in the "reproductive risk" side from an evolutionary standpoint, you still cycle back to women needing/wanting support systems present, particularly during and immediately after pregnancy. Other women are the ones likely to be more understanding of their situation, as they've either "been there" or looking to go there. Which gives an advantage to women who "bond" with other women, in addition to ("sperm donor") men.(who may or may not do more than just that)

But this is covering ground that has been discussed before, and I am certainly in the "Sexuality is a spectrum, and most people(and in particular women) are likely to be more bisexual than they want to believe" camp. An evolutionary argument can certainly be made in favor of both bisexuality, and heterosexuality. Homosexuality is the one that ends up in a proverbial "dead end" as it should result in a failure to reproduce, even if the tribe/pack/group somehow benefits from them. (But nature being nature, "Rape is a thing" albeit one that is still only likely to result in a "reproductive success" in the case of a homosexual female, as the males typically need to initiate the process)

7,930 = Fa/Fa or Fa/ft or ft/ft
1,991 = Ma/Ma or Ma/mt or mt/mt

In both cases the numbers above include stories that have the codes Ma/Fa or Ma/ft or mt/Fa or mt/ft. Subtract those codes and the numbers are

1,736 = Fa/Fa or Fa/ft or ft/ft
715 = Ma/Ma or Ma/mt or mt/mt

What I was pointing out is that most of the stories that have the homosexual codes also include some heterosexual ones as well.

Some of the gay or lesbian tags were likely added to a primarily heterosexual story because it is a squick, and might even refer to a single scene, leaving those looking for that type of action very disappointed.

but that's me.

That's a large percentage of us.

I have nothing against MM, but I prefer to read something else. FF is my favorite. MF is solidly in the center.

Assuming the often quoted but vastly exaggerated claim that 10% of the population is homosexual

Wikipedia (I'm digging deep for scientific data here) says that 3.8% of USA is homosexual. Assuming it's a 50/50 split between men and women then we are still in good shape :P

Of course, expecting erotica/porn stats to match the population is ludicrous. As already mentioned, hetrosexual men love lesbian porn, and some women like gay porn.

I think the original post declaring that "one bombers are driving away gay erotica authors" is unlikely to be true.

I don't think SOL drives away gay erotica writers. We just don't make a special effort to attract them, and I don't think we need to.

Write what you want to write and ignore ignorant one-bombers!

I think the original post declaring that "one bombers are driving away gay erotica authors" is unlikely to be true.

It is part "one bombers" and a larger part "reader feedback" in addition to the 1 bomb.

Homosexual Male content is FAR more likely to generate hate mail from people on SOL than any other single item. Hate Mail in turn is likely to turn away authors of homosexual content, which creates the conditions previously outlined. "SOL (as a site) is hostile to homosexual content."

hate mail

Hate male?

Hate male?

I think the code for that is FF.

I'll admit that MM stories are a huge squick for me and I avoid them. SOL's codes usually take care of that. But if an author sneaks some MM action in without coding it, I'll one-bomb him for dishonesty.

Also, if you read stories coded FF, isn't it obvious which were written by a guy and which were written by a woman? Actually, those written by women are usually raunchier and much more descriptive.

Also, if you read stories coded FF, isn't it obvious which were written by a guy and which were written by a woman? Actually, those written by women are usually raunchier and much more descriptive.

In some respects, I think the bigger complaint regarding (male oriented) porn is the borderline "transactional" nature it often is presented in. In other words, they are being quite literal when they say "it objectifys women" as it often has done just that: treats them as little more than objects or simple stage props. They might as well be blow-up dolls for all the attention given to them.

While the porn/erotica aimed at women tends to much more convoluted in general, usually to make things "more emotionally complicated" among other things, and as noted, usually far more descriptive as well.

If you want truly "raunchy" stuff to read, try the erotic content targeted for women. It is typically the most descriptive stuff out there.

Also as a tangential note going back to Yaoi for a moment. Another demonstration of this is probably Days of our Lives which is a long running soap opera aimed primarily at housewives. Something featured there? While there may be some ambiguously Bi women in the cast, there are a number of outright Gay and Bi male characters in the cast, and they're not shy at all about having those characters demonstrate their man-loving ways on screen.

Though this brings up a question maybe someone here knows or maybe I need to ask Lazeez. Does the number of downloads listed in each story count the views of the story online and by free users or does it only count the number of times a premium user actually selects the story and downloads it?

SOL doesn't distinguish. A download is a download. A page view is a download, so it counts as a download. I think there is a 24 hour timer per account(so refreshing a page multiple times in the same day only increments things once), but that is the extent of the controls Laz has in place.

A page view is a download, so it counts as a download. I think there is a 24 hour timer per account(so refreshing a page multiple times in the same day only increments things once), but that is the extent of the controls Laz has in place.

Basically correct, but it's a bit more extensive than that. For multi-chapter stories 'one day - one download' means it doesn't matter how many chapters someone reads a day - it counts as one download for the story.

I know we often see posts about people 1 bombing M/M stories. However, I've 2 stories which are solely M/M and the lowest vote showing on the system vote graph as being given on either story is a 6. How relevant that is to the discussion I'll leave up to the pundits to talk about.

I think it is VERY relevant. It highlights a bias, IMO.

No offence (well, not much anyways) to writers, but sometimes you DO get 1 bombed because you either used terrible grammar, failed to use appropriate tags (which WILL get a 1 bomb from me) or you simply wrote a crappy story.

Additionally, other times, the reader might 1 bomb a story because they got beat up in 3rd grade by someone with your first name, have a hangnail or are suffering from constipation.

1 bombs happen and implying that they are all solely caused by adversion to M/M sex is kind of a cop out. It is almost as realistic as saying all 1 bombs in M/F stories come from gay guys because they are heterophobic.

1 bombs happen and implying that they are all solely caused by adversion to M/M sex is kind of a cop out. It is almost as realistic as saying all 1 bombs in M/F stories come from gay guys because they are heterophobic.

In the case of more than a few of the 1-bombs that have been dropped in the past, other authors(who don't seem to be around anymore) but IIRC, they have had people flat out tell them that were 1 bombed because they had a MM sex scene in a story. In some cases those 1 bomber then went about giving every story that author wrote a 1 bomb because of it as well. (Other authors have likewise had their own versions of the "vengeful 1 bomber" over other issues as well, so it isn't just homosexuality that'll trigger these kinds of people)

At least in that particular instance, it happened prior to the current iteration of the voting system, so the author could see ALL of their 1 votes. The person did exactly as they said they would, and a new 1 vote turned up in every story they checked, and when they went about posting a new one, they could count on that person to drop a 1 bomb on that one as well, and sometimes even send them a reminder about why.

It might be that the particular homophobe(or group of them) that were doing all of that have died of something, moved on to other pursuits, or mellowed out over time. But there certainly have been more than a few reports from authors about receiving rather nasty messages among other things after posting Gay-oriented content on SOL in the past.

Another option is that Laz managed to identify the offending person(s) after switching to the new messaging system and has neutralized them by other means.