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Rething the 'No Room for Gay Stories on SOL' mindset

VEBIII

Well, my short foray into posting gay-friendly stories (including explicit sex scenes) is proving that the one-bombers don't hold as much sway as everyone assumed. My story just broke a 7 score, and it still has a few chapters to go.

If we can get a few decent gay pieces on the site, hopefully we can entice a couple of promising gay authors and the readers to support them.

I'm not suggesting that anyone is required to read gay porn, but for too long gays have purposely avoided the site because it doesn't appear to be welcoming. Hopefully, if we ignore the small handful of 1-bombers, we can change that.

Joe_Bondi_Beach

@VEBIII

Well, my short foray into posting gay-friendly stories (including explicit sex scenes) is proving that the one-bombers don't hold as much sway as everyone assumed. My story just broke a 7 score, and it still has a few chapters to go.


They are not "gay" stories, nor do they carry a Gay tag, but Promise and Stockings are scoring in the 7.40s with MM sex scenes, experimentation, which supports your theory that at least stories with explicit male-male sex, even when the characters aren't gay, doesn't put off most readers.

Not exactly on point because the characters are basically straight and experimenting, but there may be more than one reader such as the one who wrote me to say he hated "male-on-male" but he liked the story otherwise. In a story not tagged Gay, this suggests it's still wise to give the reader a heads up to avoid unwelcome surprises. For what it's worth, that reader is the only one who complained.

~ JBB

VEBIII


Gay stories in gay-friendly sites normally drown out every other story, especially if the site doesn't have a good search feature. Sites like FF.net or FF.org are difficult to traverse or search because it feels like 90% of the stories are gay porn. Same with Fictionpress.

AO3 gets a pass because it was set up especially for that purpose. And it has a competent search feature.


Sadly, that's precisely what happened to ASSTR and kiddie-porn. When SOL finally closed it's doors to such material, and other sites joined in banning it, ASSTR was overwhelmed and the remaining non-kidding porn authors fled the site.

However, I trust that SOL has their regular straight porn contingent successfully locked up (no pun intended), so the addition of few gay stories shouldn't cause a panic (aka. 'white flight'). If it does, it should be easy to head off by providing a separate site sharing the same site features to create a 'separate but equal' (cough-cough) site so no one will feel frightened.

For most of us, we know how to read story descriptions, and don't fly into a blind rage when we see something we don't particularly enjoy ourselves.

Replies:   Uther_Pendragon
Uther_Pendragon

@VEBIII

Speaking as a an ASSTR author of adult stories, I didn't flee the sight until hardware issues forced me to.

Replies:   VEBIII
Uther_Pendragon

Sites like FF.net or FF.org are difficult to traverse or search because it feels like 90% of the stories are gay porn.

I'm not familiar with those sites, but the names would make me assume that they were primarily for lesbian stories.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  sunkuwan
Uther_Pendragon

@VEBIII


I'm not suggesting that anyone is required to read gay porn, but for too long gays have purposely avoided the site because it doesn't appear to be welcoming. Hopefully, if we ignore the small handful of 1-bombers, we can change that.


I'll note that Anne Douglas, whom I think of as an FF author, has several stories up now. They are more than I would post at one time, but that's her decision.

Replies:   VEBIII
VEBIII

@Uther_Pendragon

Speaking as a an ASSTR author of adult stories, I didn't flee the sight until hardware issues forced me to.

Different SOL members 'fled' at different points, but the fact remains, their membership was dropping as the balance of stories shifted. Some readers didn't like seeing so many kiddie porn stories, while others just got frustrated, but as many regular readers went elsewhere, so did the authors once their readership numbers dropped.

Replies:   oyster50
Crumbly Writer

@Uther_Pendragon

Sites like FF.net or FF.org are difficult to traverse or search because it feels like 90% of the stories are gay porn.

I'm not familiar with those sites, but the names would make me assume that they were primarily for lesbian stories.

Fraternal Friends? Frolicking Felines? Friendly Fellows?

VEBIII

@Uther_Pendragon

I'll note that Anne Douglas, whom I think of as an FF author, has several stories up now. They are more than I would post at one time, but that's her decision.

SOL, like many cisgender sites, favors lesbian porn, but balks at gay (male homosexual) erotica.

sunkuwan

@Uther_Pendragon

FanFiction

Safe_Bet

SOL, like many cisgender sites, favors lesbian porn, but balks at gay (male homosexual) erotica.


Do you have any proof to back up this statement? I've read several stories here with M/M content (many with pretty fair scores).

I'm just curious if you have proof other than your own anecdotal experiences (which you seem to agree received pretty fair scores.)

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Safe_Bet

Do you have any proof to back up this statement?


Category Search:

7,930 = Fa/Fa or Fa/ft or ft/ft
1,991 = Ma/Ma or Ma/mt or mt/mt

Ernest Bywater

@VEBIII

SOL, like many cisgender sites, favors lesbian porn, but balks at gay (male homosexual) erotica.


That could've been worded better. The site and site managers don't balk, but some of the readers are a bit bigoted and they show their colours at times.

Replies:   Safe_Bet
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


Category Search:

7,930 = Fa/Fa or Fa/ft or ft/ft

1,991 = Ma/Ma or Ma/mt or mt/mt


that's author writing or posting stats, not site management stats.

edit to add:

I've 111 stories on the site, and while there are a few female / female scenes in my stories they tend to be minor aspects of group sex scenes or stories, which is also true of most of the stories where I have male / males scenes as well.

Yet I've 2 stories that are solely male / male and their scores are 6.85 - 58 votes from 1114 downloads, and 6.37 - 31 votes from 2291 downloads. When I sort the stories in score order those 2 stories are in 102nd and 107th places of 111.

An important aspect to keep in mind is of the 111 stories only 20 have sex scenes in them. That means 1 in 10 of my sex stories are male / male. While most of those 20 stories with sex are multi partner stories and sex scenes.

Replies:   seanski1969
Safe_Bet
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


That could've been worded better. The site and site managers don't balk, but some of the readers are a bit bigoted and they show their colours at times.


True. ...and some of the biggest weirdos around here stick "u"s in the middle of innocent words like "colors". (...and just be grateful that I didn't make a joke about the site managers going "balk, balk, balk" like giant chickens. LOL)

seanski1969

@Ernest Bywater

Yes but you also forgot to include the following and maybe the reason why.,,,

36,523 = MA/FA or MA/fa or ma/Fa or ma/fa

awnlee jawking

@seanski1969

36,523 = MA/FA or MA/fa or ma/Fa or ma/fa


Assuming the often quoted but vastly exaggerated claim that 10% of the population is homosexual, the site should have approximately 4,000 homosexual stories to be representational. But there are more than twice that number. OMG! SOL is a gay porn site! ;)

AJ

Replies:   Safe_Bet
Safe_Bet
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


Assuming the often quoted but vastly exaggerated claim that 10% of the population is homosexual, the site should have approximately 4,000 homosexual stories to be representational. But there are more than twice that number. OMG! SOL is a gay porn site!


Heh. Of the 42,311 stories currently on the site, 10,358 are LGBT. That makes it over 24% = SOL is 2 1/2 times more of a LGBT porn site!

Now I AM worried! To paraphrase the words of Gen. Turgidson in the movie "Dr. Strangelove", "Mr. President, we must not allow...a gay porn gap!"

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@seanski1969


Yes but you also forgot to include the following and maybe the reason why.,,,

36,523 = MA/FA or MA/fa or ma/Fa or ma/fa


I didn't forget those, either on purpose (as implied) or by accident. I was responding to:


SOL, like many cisgender sites, favors lesbian porn, but balks at gay (male homosexual) erotica.


It said SOL favors lesbian porn over gay porn and then Safe_Bet asked: "Do you have any proof to back up this statement?"

Replies:   evilynnthales
evilynnthales
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


It said SOL favors lesbian porn over gay porn and was asking for proof of that statement.


Porn in general has more FF than MM. I think FF tends to appeal to gay women, bisexual women, and hetro men... MM tends to appeal to gay men.

That's obviously speaking very generally, and there is nothing wrong with anyone liking or disliking either - as long as it's not spitefully.

Wider appeal = more people interested in both writing and reading the subject.

Replies:   sunkuwan  Switch Blayde
Darian Wolfe

As for myself, I find anecdotal evidence to work well enough to generate a rule of thumb that seems to stand the test of time.

The largest majority of men who are straight as a board has no problem watching two women go at it and enjoy doing so.

The largest majority of the same men will turn tail and run at the sight of two men going at it. It just doesn't appeal and is anywhere from slightly ick to totally repulsive to these men. It stands to reason they're not going to spend their recreation reading time reading gay porn.

Personally, I don't care if there's a shitload of it here. I probably won't read any of it. Now if you have some good Lesbian porn I'm there.

but that's me.

Replies:   evilynnthales
evilynnthales
Updated:

@Darian Wolfe


but that's me.


That's a large percentage of us.

I have nothing against MM, but I prefer to read something else. FF is my favorite. MF is solidly in the center.

sunkuwan

@evilynnthales

MM tends to appeal to gay men.


That is just completely wrong. The biggest group of creators and consumers of gay porn are straight females.

tendertouch

@sunkuwan

The biggest group of creators and consumers of gay porn are straight females.


Interesting. Do you have evidence to back up the claim?

Replies:   sunkuwan
seanski1969

@sunkuwan

Yes I would love to see your evidence of your off-the-wall statement.

tendertouch

@VEBIII

SOL, like many cisgender sites, favors lesbian porn, but balks at gay (male homosexual) erotica.


As Ernest said, I haven't seen anything to indicate SOL as a site or the people who run it favor one mix over the other, but I don't doubt there is a larger percentage of FF than MM stories have been submitted to SOL.

When I walk down the street I'm more likely to see women being affectionate with one another than men, though the latter is either happening more often or I'm noticing it more since the Obergefell decision. I personally know many more lesbian couples than gay male couples, as well - small sample size so that doesn't really mean anything.

I probably won't be seeking out gay porn but as I've said when asking for recommendations, the gender of the people is less important to me than the other aspects (romantic, low-conflict relationship, non-BDSM, etc....)

oyster50

@VEBIII

I was there, still am. Since they post nothing about new stories, I'm not sure what the point is, though.

The archives are still reachable if you mess with FTP, and Kristen's Collection is still there, although it hasn't updated in years.

The number of 'kiddie porn' stories bothers me less than the overall quality of much that was posted there.

evilynnthales
Updated:

@sunkuwan

https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2017-year-in-review

Women's Favorite search term is Lesbian. It's searched about twice as often as the next biggest search term by women... lesbians scissoring.

Mens favorite is MILF. Lesbian is the 7th most popular search for men.

Neither list even includes gay...

===============

https://www.pornhub.com/insights/gay-porn-pride

Gay male content represents 6.3% of all pageviews in the United States

Gay porn viewers:

63% male

37% female

When you see that 26% of pornhubs visitors are women it's obvious that many women like gay porn. (Makes sense to me, I love lesbian porn)

===============

I'll stand my my statement, though I should amend it to:

MM tends to appeal to gay men and some women.

I think you are mistaking a "larger proportion of women" with "largest consumer"

AmigaClone

@Switch Blayde


7,930 = Fa/Fa or Fa/ft or ft/ft
1,991 = Ma/Ma or Ma/mt or mt/mt


In both cases the numbers above include stories that have the codes Ma/Fa or Ma/ft or mt/Fa or mt/ft. Subtract those codes and the numbers are

1,736 = Fa/Fa or Fa/ft or ft/ft
715 = Ma/Ma or Ma/mt or mt/mt

Replies:   Switch Blayde
seanski1969

So basically 1.7% of all stories on SOL are strictly Gay Males. This seems much lower than the quote 10% of the population which was alluded to earlier.

Replies:   evilynnthales
Switch Blayde

@evilynnthales

MM tends to appeal to gay men


Wattpad is primarily teen girls. Boy/boy stories are very big there.

Replies:   evilynnthales
Switch Blayde

@AmigaClone

In both cases the numbers above include stories that have the codes Ma/Fa or Ma/ft or mt/Fa or mt/ft.


That's not relevant. The subject wasn't gay or lesbian ONLY.

How many times has someone here said a gay scene in a hetero story is a squick?

Replies:   AmigaClone
evilynnthales

@seanski1969

Assuming the often quoted but vastly exaggerated claim that 10% of the population is homosexual


Wikipedia (I'm digging deep for scientific data here) says that 3.8% of USA is homosexual. Assuming it's a 50/50 split between men and women then we are still in good shape :P

Of course, expecting erotica/porn stats to match the population is ludicrous. As already mentioned, hetrosexual men love lesbian porn, and some women like gay porn.

I think the original post declaring that "one bombers are driving away gay erotica authors" is unlikely to be true.

I don't think SOL drives away gay erotica writers. We just don't make a special effort to attract them, and I don't think we need to.

Write what you want to write and ignore ignorant one-bombers!

Replies:   Not_a_ID
evilynnthales
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

While Wattpad has public demographic showing ~70% female, they don't (at least as far as I can tell) have anything about interest in different story types. So we really don't have any useful information there.

As I already mentioned, some women like gay porn. I even added "some women" to my statement. That said, I think MM is still primarily for gay men.

Far more women like lesbian, threesome, hentai, Big Dick, Ebony, Gangbang, Anal, MILF, Teen, and Hentai... but some do like gay porn. It's just so low on the list that it doesn't show up in the top fifteen.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@evilynnthales


While Wattpad has public demographic showing ~70% female, they don't (at least as far as I can tell) have anything about interest in different story types. So we really don't have any useful information there.


I just know what they say in posts.

I did a wattpad search on "boy/boy" and it returned a long list of stories. It also gave me options to refine my search with "boyxboy," "gay," "mxm," and others. Believe me, boy/boy is very popular with the teenage girls there.

ETA: btw, one of the other options was "yaoi." I had no idea what that was go I googled it. From wikipedia:

Yaoi (/ˈjaʊi/; Japanese: やおい [ja.o.i]), primarily known as boys' love (BL) (ボーイズ ラブ bōizu rabu) in Japan, is a Japanese genre of fictional media focusing on romantic or sexual relationships between male characters, typically marketed for a female audience and usually created by female authors. Yaoi also attracts male readers, but manga specifically marketed for a gay male audience (bara) is considered a separate genre.

The main characters in yaoi usually conform to the formula of the seme (the "top", or dominant figure) who pursues the uke (the "bottom", or passive figure). Material classified as yaoi typically depicts gay relationships between male characters and may include homoerotic content. Although the yaoi genre is also called Boys' Love (commonly abbreviated as BL), the characters may be of any age above puberty, including adults. Works featuring prepubescent boys are labelled shotacon and seen as a distinct genre.

Replies:   evilynnthales
evilynnthales

@Switch Blayde

I just know what they say in posts.


They provide stats proving that most of their readers are women, but where is anything about who reads which stories? I know there are at least 900 boyxboy stories, but that number isn't useful by itself.

How many stories are available in each category?
How popular is each category?

Are there 25,000 "boyxboy" stories and "1000" lesbian?
Are there 25,000 "lesbian" stories and "1000" boyxboy?

Is boyxboy the least popular category for readers? Is it the most popular?

Most important of all, what percentage of wattpad users that read boyxboy are male vs female?

Wattpad has at least 1000 boyxboy stories. - Fact
Wattpad users are 70% female. - Fact
Women read lots of boyxboy stories on Wattpad. - Opinion (unless you have stats I don't)

I'm not trying to say your wrong, I'm just saying that we (or at least I) don't have the needed information.

=========

I knew what Yaoi was, but didn't know that women are the target audience. It's good to know, and a point in the MM is for women camp.

That still doesn't change the fact that:

The average MM pornhub viewer is ~1.7 times more likely to be male than a female.
The average female pornhub viewer is at least twenty times more likely to watch something other than than gay sex - with lesbian sex the most popular result.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Not_a_ID
seanski1969
Updated:

Maybe someone should ask Lazeez what the total number of downloads of the 1,736 = Fa/Fa or Fa/ft or ft/ft and 715 = Ma/Ma or Ma/mt or mt/mt stories are versus the total downloads of all the other combinations and then maybe you could find the popularity as close to the truth as possible.

Though this brings up a question maybe someone here knows or maybe I need to ask Lazeez. Does the number of downloads listed in each story count the views of the story online and by free users or does it only count the number of times a premium user actually selects the story and downloads it?

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@sunkuwan

That is just completely wrong. The biggest group of creators and consumers of gay porn are straight females.


My mostly anecdotal experience in the matter tends to agree with this. I have known more than a few women who were completely gaga over almost any flavor of Yaoi(M/M) they can find.

Much like straight males are okay with lesbians "because it's hot" and they want to participate in some form, straight women like Yaoi because they think "it is hot" and provides fodder for reverse-harem type scenarios. You need look no further than Amazon's marketplace for books with harems in them, at least from what I have seen, the "reverse harem" grouping is MUCH easier to find because Amazon's search tools are lousy for that.

Not_a_ID

@evilynnthales

I think the original post declaring that "one bombers are driving away gay erotica authors" is unlikely to be true.


It is part "one bombers" and a larger part "reader feedback" in addition to the 1 bomb.

Homosexual Male content is FAR more likely to generate hate mail from people on SOL than any other single item. Hate Mail in turn is likely to turn away authors of homosexual content, which creates the conditions previously outlined. "SOL (as a site) is hostile to homosexual content."

Replies:   richardshagrin
Not_a_ID

@evilynnthales

Wattpad has at least 1000 boyxboy stories. - Fact
Wattpad users are 70% female. - Fact
Women read lots of boyxboy stories on Wattpad. - Opinion (unless you have stats I don't)

I think you'll find that in respect to Yaoi type content, that it also is predominantly created by Women. Haven't seriously researched it, just going by anecdotal experience on the matter.

That is NOT saying that gay men aren't creating gay erotica/porn, just that a significant portion of what is there isn't by/for gay men. The target audience is female.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@seanski1969


Though this brings up a question maybe someone here knows or maybe I need to ask Lazeez. Does the number of downloads listed in each story count the views of the story online and by free users or does it only count the number of times a premium user actually selects the story and downloads it?


SOL doesn't distinguish. A download is a download. A page view is a download, so it counts as a download. I think there is a 24 hour timer per account(so refreshing a page multiple times in the same day only increments things once), but that is the extent of the controls Laz has in place.

Replies:   robberhands
AmigaClone

@Switch Blayde

What I was pointing out is that most of the stories that have the homosexual codes also include some heterosexual ones as well.

Some of the gay or lesbian tags were likely added to a primarily heterosexual story because it is a squick, and might even refer to a single scene, leaving those looking for that type of action very disappointed.

robberhands

@Not_a_ID

A page view is a download, so it counts as a download. I think there is a 24 hour timer per account(so refreshing a page multiple times in the same day only increments things once), but that is the extent of the controls Laz has in place.

Basically correct, but it's a bit more extensive than that. For multi-chapter stories 'one day - one download' means it doesn't matter how many chapters someone reads a day - it counts as one download for the story.

Not_a_ID

Downloads are counted both on a per title and a per chapter basis.

This means that if you read a ten part story on the same day, the download counter for the story increases by one and the download counter of each chapter also increases by one.


That's probably more technical than he needed/wanted.

And IIRC, as I think further on it, the "24 hour counter" is actually a browser cookie. So it isn't per account, it is actually per browser/computer being used. So it is possible for numbers to be skewed by someone switching between cellphone -> laptop -> tablet for example, among other things.

It just happens those cookies also happen to be tied into accounts(so the "out of 20" counter for free accounts still remains consistent for example), so there is a little more going on, but not much more.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@evilynnthales


The average MM pornhub viewer is ~1.7 times more likely to be male than a female.

The average female pornhub viewer is at least twenty times more likely to watch something other than than gay sex - with lesbian sex the most popular result.


I think it should also be pointed out in this context that for women in particular, as it pertains to Yaoi(M/M) is it isn't so much the interest in male on male sex acts. It is in the idea of two men being that intimate with each other.

Which puts a different skew on Yaoi vs Yuri(F/F) for example. And matches up better with the PornHub numbers. There is a strong bias in favor of "being interested" in the female body being used sexually which is common to both genders for whatever reason. The interest in the male body with specific regards to sex is a very different matter.

Some of it undoubtedly cultural in nature, but I would still be inclined to suspect some evolutionary factors being in play there. "The male side" of reproduction isn't that big of a mystery, and carries few to no direct risks(that aren't social in nature) to the male. While the female side involves both internal genitals, much greater "reproductive risks" and has a lot more "mystery" built up around it.

That and one male can impregnate many women in short order, while the same doesn't completely work for women. Once you factor in the "reproductive risk" side from an evolutionary standpoint, you still cycle back to women needing/wanting support systems present, particularly during and immediately after pregnancy. Other women are the ones likely to be more understanding of their situation, as they've either "been there" or looking to go there. Which gives an advantage to women who "bond" with other women, in addition to ("sperm donor") men.(who may or may not do more than just that)

But this is covering ground that has been discussed before, and I am certainly in the "Sexuality is a spectrum, and most people(and in particular women) are likely to be more bisexual than they want to believe" camp. An evolutionary argument can certainly be made in favor of both bisexuality, and heterosexuality. Homosexuality is the one that ends up in a proverbial "dead end" as it should result in a failure to reproduce, even if the tribe/pack/group somehow benefits from them. (But nature being nature, "Rape is a thing" albeit one that is still only likely to result in a "reproductive success" in the case of a homosexual female, as the males typically need to initiate the process)

sunkuwan

@tendertouch

http://ffnresearch.blogspot.com/2011/03/fan-fiction-demographics-in-2010-age.html
78% of FanFiction.Net members are female

http://centrumlumina.tumblr.com/post/63208278796/ao3-census-masterpost
80% of "Archive of our own" (AO3) is Female, with only 4% male and the rest the specific transgender types.
AO3 was created specifically to serve as a place for LGBT fiction (mainly gay)
38% of the readers are hetero and 30% bisexual.

The Pornhub stat is meaningless because straight/bisexual women don't want to SEE the act, they want to imagine it, they want the romance.

Replies:   evilynnthales
richardshagrin

@Not_a_ID

hate mail

Hate male?

Replies:   red61544
red61544

@richardshagrin

Hate male?

I think the code for that is FF.

I'll admit that MM stories are a huge squick for me and I avoid them. SOL's codes usually take care of that. But if an author sneaks some MM action in without coding it, I'll one-bomb him for dishonesty.

Also, if you read stories coded FF, isn't it obvious which were written by a guy and which were written by a woman? Actually, those written by women are usually raunchier and much more descriptive.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Switch Blayde
Not_a_ID

@red61544

Also, if you read stories coded FF, isn't it obvious which were written by a guy and which were written by a woman? Actually, those written by women are usually raunchier and much more descriptive.


In some respects, I think the bigger complaint regarding (male oriented) porn is the borderline "transactional" nature it often is presented in. In other words, they are being quite literal when they say "it objectifys women" as it often has done just that: treats them as little more than objects or simple stage props. They might as well be blow-up dolls for all the attention given to them.

While the porn/erotica aimed at women tends to much more convoluted in general, usually to make things "more emotionally complicated" among other things, and as noted, usually far more descriptive as well.

If you want truly "raunchy" stuff to read, try the erotic content targeted for women. It is typically the most descriptive stuff out there.

Also as a tangential note going back to Yaoi for a moment. Another demonstration of this is probably Days of our Lives which is a long running soap opera aimed primarily at housewives. Something featured there? While there may be some ambiguously Bi women in the cast, there are a number of outright Gay and Bi male characters in the cast, and they're not shy at all about having those characters demonstrate their man-loving ways on screen.

Switch Blayde

@red61544

But if an author sneaks some MM action in without coding it, I'll one-bomb him for dishonesty.


Which is why my "The Hitchhiker" will never be on SOL.

Leave it out and I'm dishonest.
Put it in and I ruin the surprise/twist which makes the short story.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

Which is why my "The Hitchhiker" will never be on SOL.


What are you worried about? 1-bombers, unconstructive negative feedback, or both?

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
evilynnthales

@sunkuwan

There have been many good posts since I last posted, but I think I'll direct my reply to @sunkuwan.

The Pornhub stat is meaningless because straight/bisexual women don't want to SEE the act, they want to imagine it, they want the romance.


This makes complete sense to me.

I love lesbian porn and erotica but I approach them differently.

1) Porn - I want to watch one or two women having sex. I don't want to see a penis. I don't want to hear a man whisper direction off screen. It's a huge turn off for me, and I'll just move to the next video. I don't need a relationship, I just want to see and hear the act.

2) Erotica - I want the story to have a relationship between two women. I prefer a relationship that isn't filled with drama. Cheating/Betrayal of the relationship is a HUGE turn off. The relationship can include more than two women, but only if it's believable. The sex can include multiple people, though I prefer only the people in the relationship involved... Men can be in the story and in the sex scenes. But not the relationship. I sometimes even skim/skip sex scenes. It's about far more than the act.

Also, if you read stories coded FF, isn't it obvious which were written by a guy and which were written by a woman? Actually, those written by women are usually raunchier and much more descriptive.


Are we assuming that a writer is male or female because they fit our preconceptions of who which sex wrote the story? It's not easy to know if someone is male or female on the internet. I'm male, but I use a female pen name for example.

In other words, they are being quite literal when they say "it objectifys women" as it often has done just that: treats them as little more than objects or simple stage props. They might as well be blow-up dolls for all the attention given to them.


I don't really get this complaint, though I've heard it many times. It's not about objectifying women in general. It's not saying that women are just objects. (Note: Men in the same scenes are treated the same way)

In fact, that's exactly what I want from my porn... I'm LITERALLY paying people to pose, masturbate, and/or have sex because I think it's beautiful to watch. They are paid to become objects of beauty for some period of time. There is nothing wrong with that.

(On the very rare occasion I actually pay for porn)

I have many problems with the porn industry, but objectifying women isn't one of them.

It's also NOT what I want from my erotica.

sunkuwan

@evilynnthales

2) Erotica - I want the story to have a relationship between two women. I prefer a relationship that isn't filled with drama. Cheating/Betrayal of the relationship is a HUGE turn off. The relationship can include more than two women, but only if it's believable. The sex can include multiple people, though I prefer only the people in the relationship involved... Men can be in the story and in the sex scenes. But not the relationship. I sometimes even skim/skip sex scenes. It's about far more than the act.


That is also my mantra while reading stories that are not complete stroke stories. After a while, I just skip the sex scenes if they don't open up with a kind of a different vibe or kink.

Not_a_ID

@evilynnthales

Are we assuming that a writer is male or female because they fit our preconceptions of who which sex wrote the story? It's not easy to know if someone is male or female on the internet. I'm male, but I use a female pen name for example.


On the internet, my default assumption is they're male until or unless demonstrated otherwise. I can't completely rule out the possibility that some of the author's I think are female actually are men. But for most of them, I'd be highly surprised to discover that to be the case.

In other words, they are being quite literal when they say "it objectifys women" as it often has done just that: treats them as little more than objects or simple stage props. They might as well be blow-up dolls for all the attention given to them.



I don't really get this complaint, though I've heard it many times. It's not about objectifying women in general. It's not saying that women are just objects. (Note: Men in the same scenes are treated the same way)


Not going to completely disagree, except that in most porn, the Guy is the one giving direction to the women and otherwise "being dominant" while the woman just takes it.

I don't fully hold to the "it objectifys them" argument either, particularly in many of the cases they have attempted to apply it(such as with Playboy in particular).

But that doesn't make it any less literally true, although I'd say being objectified as a work of art/thing of beauty is one thing. Being objectified as the living proxy of a blow-up doll is another. The differing ends of the spectrum on that are literally worlds apart.

evilynnthales
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


Not going to completely disagree, except that in most porn, the Guy is the one giving direction to the women and otherwise "being dominant" while the woman just takes it.


As someone who prefers no men in the scene at all, and finds the only even slightly acceptable male role in my porn is under the heels of a dominant female having sex with another woman... I'll take you word for it.


I'd say being objectified as a work of art/thing of beauty is one thing. Being objectified as the living proxy of a blow-up doll is another.


I both are as the same thing as far as I'm concerned...

One just says it politely while the other says it rudely.

The phrase " ...proxy of a blow-up doll" is just the most insulting way to say " ...sensual beauty that people fantasize about having sex with."

I think we are going to just need to disagree on that subject.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@evilynnthales

As someone who prefers no men in the scene at all, and finds the only even slightly acceptable male role in my porn is under the heels of a dominant female having sex with another woman... I'll take you word for it.


I'm in the "I can do without the dudes in my porn" grouping as well.

But as to the guys getting dominated by women in porn, that is a kink category, and they are legion, that one is a little larger than most, with CFNM being a common form of it. But it is very much a niche all the same.

I'd say being objectified as a work of art/thing of beauty is one thing. Being objectified as the living proxy of a blow-up doll is another.



I both are as the same thing as far as I'm concerned...

One just says it politely while the other says it rudely.


Something/someone can be regarded as beautiful/attractive/praiseworthy without it moving into the realm of "I want to stick my penis in it."

The phrase " ...proxy of a blow-up doll" is just the most insulting way to say " ...sensual beauty that people fantasize about having sex with."

I think we are going to just need to disagree on that subject.


No "proxy of a blow up doll" was more literally an allusion to "anything with(or resembling) a hole will do." Which isn't a very good place to approach things from if you're giving a person the same amount of regard(or even less) as you would give to a fleshlight.

Ernest Bywater

I know we often see posts about people 1 bombing M/M stories. However, I've 2 stories which are solely M/M and the lowest vote showing on the system vote graph as being given on either story is a 6. How relevant that is to the discussion I'll leave up to the pundits to talk about.

Replies:   Safe_Bet  awnlee jawking
evilynnthales
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


Something/someone can be regarded as beautiful/attractive/praiseworthy without it moving into the realm of "I want to stick my penis in it."


Art can be beautiful without sex entering into it at all. My favorite photo of my wife is of her coming out of the bathroom after a shower. Towels wrapped around her body and hair, a smile on her face. The picture isn't sexual or sensual. It's not even playful.

It's the woman I love, happy and contented with her life, truly beautiful... without sex being involved in any way. It always reminds me of how much I love her. Let's call this picture (A)

I have many memories of her being just a beautiful, and sex is involved, but she wouldn't want me sharing details. Lets call my favorite of these (B).

You seem to imply that (B) somehow bad, or at least "lesser". It's not. It's just a different kind of beauty. Just because "I want to stick my penis in her", doesn't make the second set "bad".

Well, both make me want to do that, but for different reasons... My point still stands though.


No "proxy of a blow up doll" was more literally an allusion to "anything with(or resembling) a hole will do."


By "anything" do you mean "another beautiful woman in the throes of ecstasy?" Because unless that's what you mean, I can't agree.

While we may not know anything about the woman in the scene other than how she looks, sounds, and acts during the scene, the same is true with Mona Lisa (though you can easily look up facts about either online).

I hate to point out what should be obvious, but Mona Lisa is completely interchangeable with many other women. It's not her real smile that is so famous. It's the techniques Leonardo used to create a painting that are important.


Da Vinci painted Mona Lisa in such a way that the eyes are the center of the viewer's attention and the mouth is the periphery. His sfumato technique ensured that both the eyes and the mouth were prominent features. When the viewer looks at the eyes, the mouth falls under the viewer's peripheral vision and therefore the features of the mouth are not clear, this along with a little shading at the cheek bones make the mouth look like a smile. But once the viewer focuses on the mouth (smile), the smile slowly disappears, as it was not meant to be a smile. That's the magic of Leonardo's skill and that's what made the Mona Lisa unique compared to other grand paintings.


She is literally interchangeable with any woman out there with the correct type of face and smile.

Just like porn stars are mostly interchangeable.


Which isn't a very good place to approach things from if you're giving a person the same amount of regard(or even less) as you would give to a fleshlight.


What are you talking about? Less regard than I'd give a fleshlight? I'm looking for beauty. I'm looking for the sight and sounds of a beautiful woman in the throws of sexual pleasure. That's not an insult to the women involved.

It doesn't imply that she is only good for sex. It doesn't imply that she is an object to be used. It doesn't imply that she is lesser.

It SHOULD be considered a compliment, but obviously our society doesn't look at it that way.

Don't excuse sexist male chauvinist attitudes by saying porn causes it.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@evilynnthales

Don't excuse sexist male chauvinist attitudes by saying porn causes it.


Pornography doesn't cause it. But some porn certainly tries to perpetuate it. It has little to do with it actually being porn, except it often is more blatant about it, plenty of other mediums achieve comparable ends.

Replies:   evilynnthales
evilynnthales

@Not_a_ID

It has little to do with it actually being porn, except it often is more blatant about it, plenty of other mediums achieve comparable ends.


I can definitely agree with that.

Safe_Bet

@Ernest Bywater

I know we often see posts about people 1 bombing M/M stories. However, I've 2 stories which are solely M/M and the lowest vote showing on the system vote graph as being given on either story is a 6. How relevant that is to the discussion I'll leave up to the pundits to talk about.


I think it is VERY relevant. It highlights a bias, IMO.

No offence (well, not much anyways) to writers, but sometimes you DO get 1 bombed because you either used terrible grammar, failed to use appropriate tags (which WILL get a 1 bomb from me) or you simply wrote a crappy story.

Additionally, other times, the reader might 1 bomb a story because they got beat up in 3rd grade by someone with your first name, have a hangnail or are suffering from constipation.

1 bombs happen and implying that they are all solely caused by adversion to M/M sex is kind of a cop out. It is almost as realistic as saying all 1 bombs in M/F stories come from gay guys because they are heterophobic.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Not_a_ID
Ernest Bywater

@Safe_Bet

I think it is VERY relevant. It highlights a bias, IMO.


Could be. However, I was simply pointing out that my M/M stories didn't get 1 bombed despite what some people say. It may well be only some authors get 1 bombed for M/M stories. I don't know.

I have been 1 bombed for present tense stories. I know because the person who did it sent me an email each time they did it. They also 1 bombed my first person stories and told me they did it and why.

Replies:   tendertouch
awnlee jawking

@Ernest Bywater

Just to clarify, you can see all the votes, can't you. So if there had been any 1-bombs, you would see them.

AJ

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
tendertouch

@Ernest Bywater

I have been 1 bombed for present tense stories. I know because the person who did it sent me an email each time they did it.


Wow! I don't read your stories because of the present tense, but to not only vote it down but to do it multiple times even though you can tell right away that something about the author's stories is going to bother you is just sad.

As far as down voting MM stories, I wonder if that's abating some? A recently completed story, 'Shadow and Light', is coded for MM and has its fair share but is sitting at 8+ for a score - despite being littered with appalling technical errors. It's hard to imagine it got many 1 votes at all given that score for a story that so desperately needs a proofreader (the author has admitted as much, btw.)

Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

What are you worried about? 1-bombers, unconstructive negative feedback, or both?


Hate mail and everything that goes with it. Everyone here says that you never leave out a squick story code. If you do, you'll pay the price. And you deserve it.

Ernest Bywater

@awnlee jawking

Just to clarify, you can see all the votes, can't you. So if there had been any 1-bombs, you would see them.


I'm pretty sure I'm one of those who asked to have all of the votes displayed on the graph. But now I can't remember if I did for sure, it was so long ago.

Ernest Bywater

@tendertouch

Wow! I don't read your stories because of the present tense, but to not only vote it down but to do it multiple times even though you can tell right away that something about the author's stories is going to bother you is just sad.


Not all of my stories are present tense, and not all are first person. However, there is one person who reads every story I post and sends me messages about not liking first person or present tense stories and voting them 1 because of that. Their choice, I don't control people's votes. Hell, I don't follow the scores or look at them except when we have these talks.

I know there are a few readers at SoL who think the only way to tell a story is in the past tense simply because that's what they're used to seeing from the 20th century authors they read.

Ernest Bywater

@tendertouch

Wow! I don't read your stories because of the present tense, but to not only vote it down but to do it multiple times even though you can tell right away that something about the author's stories is going to bother you is just sad.


One of the very early point I make in my Fiction Writing and Style Guide is:

Whatever you choose to write you can be sure someone will abuse your story. They will point out perceived, or actual, errors; while others will reject it because they don't want to read it, or be involved with it. Make sure you are ready to handle and deal with this, or you will go crazy with anger and angst when it happens. This is part of being a writer. You must accept it happens, get over it, and get on with life.

..........

Regardless of how much rejection or abuse you get, you will live through it, so don't let it annoy you too much.

Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

I know there are a few readers at SoL who think the only way to tell a story is in the past tense simply because that's what they're used to seeing from the 20th century authors they read.


I don't like present tense stories, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. I enjoyed reading "Killing Lincoln" and it was written in present tense.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Safe_Bet

1 bombs happen and implying that they are all solely caused by adversion to M/M sex is kind of a cop out. It is almost as realistic as saying all 1 bombs in M/F stories come from gay guys because they are heterophobic.


In the case of more than a few of the 1-bombs that have been dropped in the past, other authors(who don't seem to be around anymore) but IIRC, they have had people flat out tell them that were 1 bombed because they had a MM sex scene in a story. In some cases those 1 bomber then went about giving every story that author wrote a 1 bomb because of it as well. (Other authors have likewise had their own versions of the "vengeful 1 bomber" over other issues as well, so it isn't just homosexuality that'll trigger these kinds of people)

At least in that particular instance, it happened prior to the current iteration of the voting system, so the author could see ALL of their 1 votes. The person did exactly as they said they would, and a new 1 vote turned up in every story they checked, and when they went about posting a new one, they could count on that person to drop a 1 bomb on that one as well, and sometimes even send them a reminder about why.

It might be that the particular homophobe(or group of them) that were doing all of that have died of something, moved on to other pursuits, or mellowed out over time. But there certainly have been more than a few reports from authors about receiving rather nasty messages among other things after posting Gay-oriented content on SOL in the past.

Another option is that Laz managed to identify the offending person(s) after switching to the new messaging system and has neutralized them by other means.

tendertouch

@Ernest Bywater

Not all of my stories are present tense, and not all are first person.


The ones that I checked into were present tense. I don't remember if they were first person - which is the only type of present tense story I'll even try reading. Even there, though, I mostly limit my present tense reading to short stories. That's just me, however.

Actually a story that was almost exclusively dialog would be fine in present tense but they're scarce.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@tendertouch

The ones that I checked into were present tense.


Most of my older stories are past tense, and my favorite past tense is Always a Marine, but there are others written in the past tense. Now I tend to write present tense third person because it better suits the action stories with less restrictions.

Crumbly Writer

@evilynnthales

Are we assuming that a writer is male or female because they fit our preconceptions of who which sex wrote the story? It's not easy to know if someone is male or female on the internet. I'm male, but I use a female pen name for example.

As Switch pointed out in one of his earlier pieces, many authors write under an opposite sex pseudonym simply to get published (in many cases, they wouldn't even consider a romance story written by a man, but would eagerly accepted it with a woman's name attached).

It's not like men (or women) are incapable of imagining scenes from a different perspective, but that authors tend to write what they're familiar with. For men, it's difficult putting yourself into an emotional mindset when you've been told all your life: Don't get such a wuss! Quick crying and man up.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

But that doesn't make it any less literally true, although I'd say being objectified as a work of art/thing of beauty is one thing. Being objectified as the living proxy of a blow-up doll is another. The differing ends of the spectrum on that are literally worlds apart.

I frequent a lot of photo sharing sites for ideas/reference material. One thing I won't put up with, though, are 'glamor shots' by professional photographers. I want photo of real people showing their inner selves (i.e. those taken in revealing moments caught mostly by accident, rather than photos of professional models scowling at the camera in heavy make-up which scream "how dare you stare at my photo"). As I result, I won't even consider most shots. However, I'll spend considerable time looking at family photos of a loving family on vacation, just for the occasional shot of a glimpse of some genuine emotions.

For porn, though, I'm like most guys. I want close up shots of things going into other things, and other things dripping out when they're done. In a way, that's one thing that is nicely handled in many gay stories, in that the sex is presented from a purely male perspective (i.e. no one is trying to dress it up so that women might approve), but the romance often takes place outside of the bedroom, in the quiet moments when they might casually touch, or share a glance which silently screams 'I understand, the man's a real bitch!'. It's almost the antithesis of regular fiction, where men are busy trying to hide their true selves in order to appeal to (i.e. 'fool') women into thinking their not insensitive jerks.

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

But as to the guys getting dominated by women in porn, that is a kink category, and they are legion, that one is a little larger than most, with CFNM being a common form of it. But it is very much a niche all the same.

You see that most often if you're stupid enough to ever search the internet for images of 'female strap-ons', as the vast majority of what you'll find are women fucking guys up the ass with a 10" black strap on. I'm sorry, but that's not interesting at all, as it's all about 'turnabout being fair play', and is, at best, merely a weird fetish.

Although woman-to-woman strap-on sex might be rare in real life, it's nice seeing women behaving as if their men, letting their inner masculinity show through without it being about emasculating anyone.

Note: Just in case anyone hasn't noticed in the past, I like stories which turns things on their heads, presenting fresh perspectives and making me question the things I typically take at face value.

Crumbly Writer

@evilynnthales

Well, both make me want to do that, but for different reasons... My point still stands though.

Yes, your point stands, quivering and ready for action! 'D

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