Forum: Author Hangout

as one SoL Chapter

Yes, you do, and that actually makes perfect sense, for me to do it that way. I don't know why I didn't think of doing that, it's not like I haven't read basically everything you've ever written and posted on SOL.

Unrelated to this, I'm also about done with that Winds of Change story I was working on. It's actually tougher than I thought to write, because of trying to make recorded history and then the variation I'm doing also fit into the Winds canon background.

Winds of Change

A public universe has been set up for the Winds stories, if you want you can link it in. If there's an issue let me know and I'll get it done.

I find short chapters that are really just a page to be aggravating and I ignore them

I love short chapters. So did Kurt Vonnegut and many other authors. I actually hate long chapters.

What's wrong with a short chapter? The reader just goes on to the next chapter if they want to keep reading. A long chapter, on the other hand, forces a reader to keep reading or stop in the middle of something.

Too often, I find long chapters to have a lot in them that should have been edited out. A scene is typically a chapter and there's a saying about scenes: "Arrive late and leave early." Basically, it says skip the boring stuff before the meat of the scene starts and stop before the boring stuff starts.

If every chapter is a different part of the story or location

I don't know what the quoted phrase means.

I agree that every chapter/scene needs to be part of the storyline. People say all the time that if a scene doesn't move the plot forward or develop a character, delete it.

But what's wrong with starting a new chapter when the location or time changes? Those are reasons for starting a new chapter. The scene ends and the next one begins a new chapter.

If every new scene would mean a new chapter, the story would be around chapter 500

You can have multiple scenes within a chapter. Dan Brown does it all the time ("The da Vinci Code)". In a printed book you show it with a blank line. In an ebook or on SOL you show it with a divider.

But a chapter is typically a scene change. Starting a new chapter in the middle of a scene is done when the POV character changes, but other than that it's a forced new chapter.

And what would it say about your writing if you only write 500-word scenes?

I don't believe there are many scenes that would be under 500 words. It's hard to develop anything in so few words. I think I have scenes under a 1,000 words, though.

That's why "if a scene doesn't move the plot forward or develop a character, delete it" is bullshit.

Why?

Why have a bunch of filler that isn't part of the story?

If you don't want two dimensional characters, you need to develop your characters beyond just their interaction with the plot line.

A story also needs a setting, a place where it happens.

Move the plot forward AND develop the character.

Setting is part of the plot.

Setting is part of the plot.

No, it isn't.

Of course it is. It's world-building. It's description of the surroundings the action is taking place in. Just like a character's description adds something to the character.

It's world-building. It's description of the surroundings the action is taking place in.

Very true, and a necessary aspect of almost any story, but that does not make it part of the plot.

My WIP takes place in a tiny town in Mississippi where there's a poor black neighborhood, a white neighborhood where the town's money is spent, and a white trash trailer park between the two.

That setting is critical to the plot. If the story took place in Chicago, the plot wouldn't work.

My WIP takes place in a tiny town in Mississippi where there's a poor black neighborhood, a white neighborhood where the town's money is spent, and a white trash trailer park between the two.

I think I visited that town. Had the best barbecue in the south. Little tar paper shack on the outskirts, no two glasses matched, only place in town whites and blacks would mingle. (This was 40 years ago, so ... yeah.)

Very true, and a necessary aspect of almost any story, but that does not make it part of the plot.

You're seriously telling me, that when you plot out the story, you never consider the various character building scenes? If you do, then the character building (which is part of the larger 'setting') are part of the plot.

I suspect what you are objecting to is the literal definition of 'setting', where an author describes the fall foliage. However, NO ONE is suggesting those are plot points, they simply 'flesh out' each given scene.

There's more to a story than just the plot.

Character development IS part of the plot, as you can't understand or appreciate (or care) about the plot if you don't understand why the characters respond as they do.

When we describe cutting anything that doesn't move the story forward, we aren't advising cutting necessary character development.

In my case, I often have short chapters, but I don't really drop below 1,500 words, or go above 10,000 (rarely do I even approach this upper limit). Often, if you have an action scene that ends with a cliffhanger, you don't want a lot of excess verbiage. Describing what the foliage looks like when a character is shot doesn't advance the story at all.

And what would it say about your writing if you only write 500-word scenes?

In my first novel, my first chapter has 3 scenes. The first is from the hero's POV setting up the mystery and the encounter with the heroine. The 2nd scene switches from the hero's POV to the heroine's (the encounter). But there's also a short scene at the end of the 1st chapter that's only 566 words. It's from the POV of the heroine's husband and really adds to the mystery. So that scene (IMO) is powerful, but only 566 words. It's not a separate chapter, though.

And that's fine. I have no problems with scenes that are even shorter. But I have a problem with it when the author has the need to make every scene a chapter.

General rule of thumb, each chapter should focus on a specific 'theme'. Some (mostly novice writers) use a 'day-in-the-life' theme, where the single chapters covers an entire day in the character's life (these tend to have a LOT of useless filler in them), but otherwise the theme will revolve around a particular conflict, introducing new characters, interviewing witnesses, meeting the parents, etc.

As long as various 'scenes' fit within that general chapter theme (ex: a chapter on "meeting the parents" could show the couple discussing their parents on the way, the actual meeting, any knock-down, drag-out fights, and then a follow-up discussion as the couple leaves), it's legit to keep it within the chapter.

These are known as 'Episodic' chapter, as each chapter focuses on a single episode in the story, no matter how many days or scene changes they incorporate.

I think you got the wrong attribution there ;)

I personally prefer chapters that fit into a single SOL page, although I also prefer that they more-or-less fill the page. Hypocritically, I sometimes violate that guideline in my own stories.

Aj

Having said that, Ernest's suggestion about a single SOL chapter with sub-headings makes sense.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've done. I did the editing today on it so that I have (hopefully) embedded the proper codes so it reads right and I'm going to try to post it in a bit if it works properly.