Forum: Author Hangout

In that case shouldn't the title be 'Marmite'?

Were you the one who scored it 'Tastes Like Vegemite'?

ETA:
Whoops! I had planned on adding a smiley face on the end of that.
I hope nobody thought I might I even suspected AJ capable of such things.
This was only ever intended as a joke about British liking Marmite v Aussies liking Vegemite.

mite

"Definition of mite

"any of numerous small acarid arachnids that often infest animals, plants, and stored foods and include important disease vectors."

No wonder mar and vege mites are unpleasant.

I asked you before, "Were you the one who scored it 'Tastes Like Vegemite'?"

I'm kind of hoping it was you now. If not, I can guarantee you that this world contains at least two vicious sods. :(

I'm kind of hoping it was you now. If not, I can guarantee you that this world contains at least two vicious sods. :(

Presuming you own a complete set of fingers on both your hands, I'd suggest you count again. I'm pretty sure you missed some sods.

I'm pretty sure you missed some sods.

I know, but I did say 'at least two'.

Two out of 24 so far have 1-bombed my story.

I am, in fact, not happy with how it turned out. The resolution of the story, such as that was, sucks. I know the style of humour is over-the-top, even silly at times. I was expecting some 4s and 5s from those who hate the type of humour. The number of those is disappointing enough.

But 1-bombs? For a tiny twisted tale intended to give readers a few giggles? AFAIK, the only technical error that was not intentional is a missing quotation mark. The reading flows smoothly enough and the dialogue is plausible.

Why would shitheads bother reading something labelled as Humour if they are inclined to 1-bomb something just because the style of humour is not to their taste?

Why would shitheads bother reading something labelled as Humour if they are inclined to 1-bomb something just because the style of humour is not to their taste?

That's assuming they actually read what you wrote before dropping the 1; I doubt that.

That's assuming they actually read what you wrote

Thanks for the sanity check. As I said, I expected some number of 4s and 5s.

I have never seen a histogram like the one this how now. There are nine 7s and no other score has more than three votes. I kind of interpret that as meaning, "Thanks for the effort, but this story does not work, and this is as kind as I can be."

There are nine 7s ... this is as kind as I can be."

Are you saying you think 7 is a bad score? I vote 7 a lot when I enjoy a story, but don't think it is 'very' good. To me it is still good.

I refuse to subscribe to the modern notion that emotions must be binary, i.e. either complete rubbish, or the greatest thing since bottled beer.

I have never believed in participation medals either!

Sorry if that rained on the parade.

Are you saying you think 7 is a bad score?

I think for many it is their "Not really" score. The entire reason for all of Lazeez's efforts manipulating scores is the self-selection of those who do vote by people inclined to be nice.

My gut feeling is most of those 7s are from readers who would rarely go any lower.

And as I have said, I am not happy with the way it turned out. But still, I gave myself several good laughs when I re-read it recently for the first time in a while.

My gut feeling is most of those 7s are from readers who would rarely go any lower.

By 'rarely go' do you mean they would rarely score lower, or that they would not vote at all if they couldn't vote a 7, or both?

I regularly find myself abandoning a story, I either can't stand or can't read, without scoring it, so maybe I am also one of 'them'.

Yes, Zom, that is what I mean. I suspect the general kindness of a fair percentage of readers results in them not voting at all if they could not give a story at least a 7.

general kindness

I can't remember being classified as 'kind' or 'nice' before :-) but the point you make has a bunch interesting ramifications. Apart from making voting compulsory (good luck with that) there would be no way to mitigate the skews my (and others') behaviour introduces. Thankfully they are all in the same direction.

There is something odd about the number 7.

My histogram is certainly not 'normal'. There's a row of scores with 2 or 3 votes, one with 4, then in the middle TEN votes?

That is definitely not random. There's some psychological influences affecting that.

That is definitely not random. There's some psychological influences affecting that.

What a wondrous observation. Did you expect your readers to vote by dice?

Did you expect your readers to vote by dice?

When you look at your raw-score graphs, does the shape remind you of a bell - or a dead man with a spear through their heart?

I have asked Lazeez to delete it, on the grounds he'll be doing readers HERE a service: it is sitting at the 90% percentile for its genre, for fuck's sake!

Does anyone here NOT think at least 20% of stories here are effectively incomprehensible, requiring constant double-takes to work out the intended meaning and sometimes still needing to guess?

When you look at your raw-score graphs, does the shape remind you of a bell - or a dead man with a spear through their heart?

I don't have any "raw-score graphics" to look at, only a graph displaying the score after the 10% outliers are cut off.

Does anyone here NOT think at least 20% of stories here are effectively incomprehensible, requiring constant double-takes to work out the intended meaning and sometimes still needing to guess?

I'd never think something like that, I'm much too nice, you Bruce.

I don't believe in kicking someone when they're down, but as you're Australian ...

Today I have killed a few-day-old kitten someone dumped in my yard and one of my own babies.

Considering you are not an American, you may proceed ...

what sort of score were you expecting for the story?

Not good, to be truthful. I was never satisfied with the final scene, but I saw enough in the remainder to believe some people would sincerely enjoy it. The Brit who proofread it asked if there would be an sequels.

I was not looking for or expecting a number. The scores here serve useful functions but have no relevance to anything. I looked its relative position within its genre. Seeing it placed at the 90th percentile, ranked lower than over half the stories that are truly unreadable, was more than I am prepared to bear.

It's higher than my 'Rue, Britannia' achieved.

Really? I quite enjoyed that. It was not great, IMHO, but I got at least few good giggles from it. What more should I expect from a very short story labelled with the misspelt word, 'Humor'.

ETA: I noticed a technical error when I proofread your post. The contraction it's is only valid for the words it is and it has. The is no contraction for the words it was.

Your story was still available when I wrote that post.

There were overlapping times for a few different things. The order appeared different when I checked ... and I saw an opportunity to craft a joke you would get in the wording I chose. :-)

I thought you were joking about having it deleted

It WILL NOT be lost to the world forever. I have made my choice about what is best for it, and me, for now.

The next time it is published it will be infinitely better. It will not have that missing quote mark. :-)

infinitely

You are going to divide it by zero?

You are going to divide it by zero?

For those of u here with black and white standards, 1/0 = infinity.

Authors delete stories all the time, sometimes even well-received stories.

By posting, I knew I have given WLPC rights to publish for some period. Lazeez had the right to refuse my request, and say he would not remove it for the stated period.

I appreciate that he chose not to do so. I expect it was easier for him to agree because the story is so short it's unlikely any readers started it but had not finished.

The story will be published again, but to respect Lazeez's agreement to do something he was not obliged to do, I will not even ask if I may post it elsewhere until I would have had a legal right to insist he removes it from SOL.

I agreed to a contract and I will honour my obligations. Thank you, Lazeez, for choosing not to enforce your rights under that contract.

For karmic reasons, the people first reading your story will always dislike it. You should have waited before pulling it back. My current story started with a score of 6.6 and the second comment I received was, "Stop wasting everyone's time with your rubbish". Meanwhile, I'm quite happy with the response I get and my readers seem to be happy as well.

Is it possible that the scores given to Ross-at-Play's story are not a judgment on his ability as a writer but more an 'appreciation 'of his many contributions to this forum?

That possibility is so exceedingly disgusting, hypocritical and idiotic, I don't even want to think about it. Sadly, your question prompted me to do just that. Thank you!

He presents his views and opinions with typical Australian vigour, and over time he may have rattled a few cages.

The editor in me suggests you should change "may have rattled a few" to "has rattled many".

As to your suggestion, thanks, but I must respond with a quote:

You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.
- Francis Urquhart, House of Cards (UK)

Still, that would not provide a satisfactory explanation for the current score of AJ's Rue, Britannia. IMHO, it too, is not great, but a well-executed attempt with enough merits for some readers to genuinely enjoy, as did I. I have not read anything else here with a score so low that I did not loathe.

There is something odd about the number 7.

Perhaps it is offering a Second Chance? :-)

That is definitely not random.

Could it somehow be accurately reflecting the readers views? What would you think a 'normal' distribution should be? Is there any 'normal' really?

What would you think a 'normal' distribution should be? Is there any 'normal' really?

A single skyscraper among a row of buildings a few stories high is decidedly un-normal.

A single skyscraper among a row of buildings a few stories high is decidedly un-normal.

Not if it is the first of those to follow. Methinks thou mayst be obsessing a tad.

Not if it is the first of those to follow. Methinks thou mayst be obsessing a tad.

None to follow; it's gone (Thanks, Lazeez), so no more obsession.

AJ,
I just came across this in your Rue, Britannia:

the prince pounced, his proud prong probing the profundity of her plump pussy.

I can at least now feel it is not an automatic no-no -- if you have the right audience -- to try something like this:

The siblings' steady stream of sour sarcasm slowly subsides into sporadic subjugated sulks.

What does 'subjugated' mean in that context?

Suppressed.

"The siblings' steady stream of sour sarcasm slowly subsides into sporadic subjugated sulks."

What does 'subjugated' mean in that context?

Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
to subjugate (verb) = to defeat somebody/something; to gain control over somebody/something

In this instance it means the mother eventually "controlled" her sons' objections by remaining intransigent until their frequency faded away.

From my story's score, SOL isn't the right audience :(

As often stated here before, a story score reflects how much a story appeals to its readers.

As an author, you can look at it from a different angle, especially if you don't like your story score. Readers are essentially evaluating their own preferences, which means a bad score for your story reflects the low quality of the readers, rather than the quality of your undisputable, extraordinary good story.

the mostly American readership of SOL objected to people they idolise, the British Royal Family, being publicly mocked.

I'd be willing to treat them as "sacred" (they do bring in the tourists' dollars), if only they weren't such cows. :)

As examples of how Americans regard Brit Royalty

'Freedom of Speech' does not exist until there is freedom to poke fun at anyone and anything, with no regard to accuracy.

Our German friends may apply a voluntary taboo which I would agree with, but that's about it, IMHO.

if only they weren't such cows. :)

Cows are female, the ones that give milk, anyway. The males are bulls, or maybe steers. Collectively they may be cattle. Which is the new way to spell Seattle. C attle. Move there, the local governments will treat you like cattle.

Sorry, I'm not using enough smileys :(

That statement is open to debate. Aside, I hope you noticed I actually didn't disagree with you.

SOL isn't the right audience :(

That was my conclusion and what prompted my request to Lazeez to remove my effort from this site. :(

Duh? Where would you expect the greatest majority of votes to be, statistically? Of course they're all in the middle!

If 7 is the most popular score, I expect 6 and 8 to be relatively high - statistically that is.

I don't think I've ever seem a histogram with something like scores from 4 through 9 on a straight line and 7 three times higher than everything else around it. I just noted there is some very non-statistical phenomenon at work for there to be such an extreme prevalence for one number out of a range.

Where would you expect the greatest majority of votes to be, statistically? Of course they're all in the middle!

That is exactly what I expected.

As someone with a limited knowledge of statistics, I did not expect a HUGE value for the statistical measures, variance and standard deviation.

I transferred the number of votes for scores of 4 through 10 into cells A4:A10 of a spreadsheet.
At cell A12 I entered: =VAR(A4:A10)
At cell A13 I entered: =STDEV(A4:A10)

The value at A12 was 8.95 (to 2 decimal places).
The value at A13 was 2.99 (to 2 decimal places).

I copied column A to column B.
In cell B7 I then overtyped with: =ROUND(AVERAGE(B4:B6;B8:10))

The value at B12 was 0.95 (to 2 decimal places).
The value at B13 was 0.98 (to 2 decimal places).

Don't you think those statistics are surprising, statistically speaking that is?

I also think you're feeding essentially gibberish to the statistics functions

My knowledge of statistics says otherwise.

I have no idea what is causing these results, i.e. what they mean, and have only said that some unusual non-random factor is influencing them.

minimum sampling size for most statistics

There are other distributions than the "normal" curve. It has been a long, long time since I took Statistics, but there are distributions that describe data with fewer, a lot fewer, data points (observations).

There are other distributions than the "normal" curve.

I'm not objecting or commenting ... I'm just making the observation I've never seen a sample that looked like it.

If I was asked to guess what was in the minds of those voters it would be, "I can see the effort. This does not work (for me). Seven is a generous as I can be." If that was their thinking I would be grateful for the encouragement to not give up.

That sounds like the best analysis to date.

Thank you. It DID look ODD.

I'm not sure redefining 7 from 'Good' to 'This does not work (for me). Seven is a generous as I can be.' is a good idea.

We have adjusted raw scores, why not add some adjusted meanings to those scores?

Also, not everyone distribution curve is a classic "bell graph" (in fact, extremely few are). Sadly, that seems to be the only one which anyone recognizes.

Because statistics defines the "bell curve" as the "normal distribution", even though double ended infinite tails are actually not normal for natural processes (there is usually at least a finite lower limit, if not an upper limit)

The other distributions tend not to get introduced at all until you get into advanced college level statistics courses.

After all, Ross never said how many votes the story had received.

At that time, 28 votes. There were 10 scores of 7, one score had 4 votes, all other scores less.

Please, I do know enough about statistics to say, "THAT is not random." That's all I'm saying.

Instead of pitching a humor piece, directed broadly, I'd take the same humor and wrap it into a larger story—where it's not the primary focus of the piece where the humor will stand on it's own without anyone judging the entire piece on the value of a single joke.

You suggest Ross should write a story as a place to hide the story he wanted to write? Congratulations, that's a plan smelling of pure ingenuity.

that's largely to purpose of the story description, your main marketing tool for a story.

Both you and Richard suggest that. And I agree.

The title was chosen to attract British readers. It's an obvious play on a catchphrase from one of the best British TV comedies ever, Blackadder. I doubt many Americans have ever heard of it.

Did I do enough in the description to deter American readers? I could have done more. The evidence from AJ's story - where the description included "Caution for bad taste" - suggests it would not have made much difference.

You said:

I'd take the same humor and wrap it into a larger story

Not possible with humour. I had an idea. I squeezed as much out of it as possible.
Attempting to incorporate humour into a story idea is an entirely different thing.

... there would be no way to mitigate the skews my (and others') behaviour introduces.

Why worry at all? The scores are made by readers (with a little aid from Lazeez) for readers. The scores are meant to be a tool for readers on SoL to choose stories they might enjoy and only stories on SoL are compared. I don't see how "nice scores" hinder this purpose.

Why worry at all? The scores are made by readers (with a little aid from Lazeez) for readers. The scores are meant to be a tool for readers on SoL to choose stories they might enjoy and only stories on SoL are compared. I don't see how "nice scores" hinder this purpose

IF readers use scores to decide whether to risk a download them surely "nice" scores will influence them improperly. I very very seldom look at scores except the result after sending my score.

My way of looking at scoring is comparison with a specific story** which has everything I want. That gets a 10, a very close match with good grammar, spelling and clarity could also get a 10. Too many spelling errors drops it a point provided the story is good and the writing clear. A good plot but I have to think about what the author is trying to ;put across gets a 7 or perhaps 8. Too much repetition (usually sex) drops a story to 8 at the very best. Below that I don't even finish chapter 3 let alone condemn the story.

** the story was recommended in this Forum but is not (unfortunately) on SOL

IF readers use scores to decide whether to risk a download them surely "nice" scores will influence them improperly. I very very seldom look at scores except the result after sending my score.

I'm certain you are more than capable to recognize that the average SoL reader might be more lenient than you are when scoring a story. Keep it in mind when you look at the scores and you can use this tool like everyone else. Of course, it's also fine to ignore the scores.

Why worry at all?

There are more stories here than anyone will ever read, so I suspect most readers will take any guidance they can get, and other readers' scoring has to be a significant factor in selecting what to read. I know it is for me. Authors should at least be aware how scores will impact their readership. I know it's not a competition, but if authors didn't want a good exposure, why publish at all? Then there is that nasty ego thing ...

I'm still waiting for the aerosol version.

Shake a can hard enough ... :-)

Why would shitheads bother reading something labelled as Humour if they are inclined to 1-bomb something just because the style of humour is not to their taste?

For exactly that reason - they didn't find it funny and they rated its appeal accordingly.

AJ

For exactly that reason - they didn't find it funny and they rated its appeal accordingly.

For exactly that reason - I consider them to be selfish and mean-spirited. I would not be totally damning of something I hated if I could see it may appeal to others. I would not 1-bomb anything unless I thought nobody would enjoy it.

The score you give a story should reflect your own personal opinion. If others like it more, it's their responsibility to give it appropriate scores.

Considering various viewpoints is usually a part of how I achieve an opinion. You really think that's wrong in regards to voting on a story?

If you consider what other people might think about a story when allocating your score, don't you have concerns about whether others take your opinion into account when they allocate their scores?

Concerns? I hope that's what they do but I'm aware some voters give a rat's ass about other readers in general and the story they are voting on in particular, which doesn't necessarily mean they actually did read the story they are voting on.

NOWHERE on SOL does it say jack shit about 'taking other's opinions into account when voting on a story'. Instead, it very clearly states: Vote according to how the story appeals to you personally.

With caps for emphasis, I was almost convinced I stated something to the contrary but I didn't. On the other hand, I also don't care what's written on SoL in regards to how I should achieve my opinion when I vote on a story.

If you consider what other people might think about a story when allocating your score, don't you have concerns about whether others take your opinion into account when they allocate their scores?

Do you think they were honest when rating it "You Call This a Story", rather than "Pretty Bad" or "Not good"?

How many 10s has the story received?

I concede some level of hypocrisy regarding the honesty of the score I gave it. :(

Well you are probably the only person on the planet who understands all the humour ;)

NO DOUBT about that!

The options are to dumb-down every joke so everyone will understand, or to write them knowing only some will get them but they will enjoy them more for having figured them out.

As long as the result is still comprehensible when jokes go over a reader's head, I see no problem.

My conclusion is that some readers have a strong moral objection to others indulging in gay behavior. It appears to me some must also have a strong moral objection to others laughing. And I stress, I assess it as not good enough to expect favourable reactions for more than a few - but I cannot see it as being worthless.

don't try ... unless your certain everyone will find it funny.

I'M NEVER DOING THAT! I will not compose musak.

I expected it to be rated poorly. I did not expect it to be rated as worse than the average stories among all stories which are incomprehensible.

it won't be the only point of the story.

I would concede there is no point in any Brit or Aussie posting anything HERE where the only point of the story is as a vehicle to give some readers a few good laughs. It is only 1,700 words.

AJ's Rue Britania is only a thousand words. He devoted 4 of 11 words in the story description to the words 'Caution for bad taste'. I could understand its current score if the 3 to 4 minutes some spent reading it - despite that caution - had ruined their lives.

Isn't truth in advertising enough for something so harmless?

I know mine doesn't really work but it gets close to its objectives. There are a few who have sincerely enjoyed it. It does not deserve a ranking among the bottom half of stories on this site that are truly worthless, impossible to understand the authors' intentions.

I'll find it a home where some will appreciate it.

ertainly there must have been something about the story more upsetting than droll humor.

A no sex story about a girl plotting to lose her virginity.

No, that wouldn't bother anyone. :)

A no sex story about a girl plotting to lose her virginity.
No, that wouldn't bother anyone. :)

I note the smiley. You know that 'no sex' means no explicit descriptions of sex, not that the story is not about sex.

Wasn't there a rule at one time for American TV shows that scenes must end while one actor still has one foot on the floor?

A no sex story about a girl plotting to lose her virginity.

No, that wouldn't bother anyone. :)

That actually sounds like the basis for a good story.

Georgeous bit of fluff sees and hears her friend getting it off and gets all hot and damp

-Makes date but boy gets knocked over by school bus.

-Another date but he goes to the wrong place

-They go into an empty classroom during break and two minutes later another couple turn up to watch
- makes date but mummy arranges for her to babysit her ailing grandmother

and so it goes on........ she ends up with a carrot

Don't all rush out there at once to help her

-Makes a date but she gets grounded

-Makes a date, they actually go out, run across a friend in need before the end of the date and the mood is lost.

-makes a date, boy goes in to meet her dad the two get to talking and discover he might be her half brother and neither are into incest.

-Make a date but one of them gets grounded.

-make a date, boy's family moves before the date of the date.

-make a date, boy turns out to be gay and can't get it up.