Forum: Author Hangout

It may say something about books sold on Kindle via Amazon, but I notice a lot of other publishers in the e-book business sell a lot of novel and saga length books at prices higher than what Amazon like to charge. Which makes me wonder if Amazon is in the cheap product e-book market and not the quality product e-book market.

I'm not sure it says as much about Amazon, as it does about readers. If many of the best-selling Amazon books are that short, then someone is buying them. I'm also guessing, based on previous discussions, that they're probably mostly cheesy porn titles.

Amazon doesn't restrict ebook sizes, and sells most of the main ebook novels by the traditional publishing houses, yet these sub-novellas rank high on the Amazon marketplace. Again, I'm guessing they're designed for one-handed reading, where the readers aren't especially interested in reading all the way through to the end, only to their own finish.

This seems to a continuation of the 'many chapters sold as separate books' scam.

I'm not sure it says as much about Amazon, as it does about readers.

I don't play in the Amazon site at all, so I'll leave it to you to tell me if they have statistics on book sales, and if they break them up between their different sales systems. I'd love to know what the sales of discreet e-book sales are as separate to their fancy lending library type system they also have (I can't remember it's name - the one where they pay you per page read as against a full book sale).

I don't play in the Amazon site at all, so I'll leave it to you to tell me if they have statistics on book sales, and if they break them up between their different sales systems. I'd love to know what the sales of discreet e-book sales are as separate to their fancy lending library type system they also have (I can't remember it's name - the one where they pay you per page read as against a full book sale).

The lending library is only available with the KU (Kindle Unlimited, or Kindle Select) program, which I'm not a member of. Switch offers his book via KU, so maybe he's a member, though there's no guarantee he is.

The main issue with KU, is that they only pay loose change instead of your retail price for people to read it.

I didn't try it myself, but Amazon typically reports a books sale ranking, and I'm sure they offer a 'best-sellers list', so it shouldn't be difficult to check.

As far as reporting, Kindle combines PU (Page 'units' paid) on their normal 'sales' reporting page (it's a separate graphic, but they don't report such sales as 'books read' or even as 'viewers reading your books').

Switch offers his book via KU, so maybe he's a member,

I don't have a Prime account so I'm not a KU member. But I enrolled one of my novels in Amazon's Select program so it's available for free to Prime members.

I'm sure I make more when someone buys my novel than if they read it in KU and I get paid for all the pages read. But what about all the pages read where they wouldn't have bought the novel? There's a lot of that.

If they paid authors retail prices, the unlimited access subscription model would be a losing proposition for Amazon.

Not quite. Amazon offers free books as an enticement for members to sign up for FREE SHIPPING, thus guaranteeing they'll order primarily from Amazon in most instances. Essentially, they've giving away author's profits in order to sell more physical products for their own benefit. They're making money off the backs of authors, while only paying them a pittance.

If Switch is making money off of the deal, then good for him, but I don't have to admire Amazon for treating hard-toiling authors like sweatshop workers!

By the way, why the hell am I defending someone I don't even know, to prove a point I'm not even sure is true? I keep feeling like I'm being backed into a corner over everyone else's 'outrage of the moment', rather than entering into actual discussions of topics important to authors!

That's Amazon Prime, not Kindle Unlimited. Two separate subscription services.

I thought it was the Prime members that got to use KU. So aren't they the same?

why the hell am I defending someone I don't even know, to prove a point I'm not even sure is true? I keep feeling like I'm being backed into a corner

I wasn't attacking you. I was disputing the author's claim, giving my opinion, my doubts with what he said.

I'm not even saying he's wrong. It's just that what he's saying seems wrong to me and when I did my limited search the six ebooks I checked were all longer.

Btw, the only reason I mentioned "Last Kiss" was because I knew the word count and the number of pages Amazon says it is for comparison to his lengths. I consider it a full-length novel at the upper range for its genre.

I'm not even saying he's wrong. It's just that what he's saying seems wrong to me and when I did my limited search the six ebooks I checked were all longer.

One of those listed was only marginally longer. I think, in such a search, you need to eliminate the main-stream publishers best-sellers, since they're often in a class by themselves and often more expensive (ex: $26.98 vs. $20.98) than their print books.

And part of why my KU bias for the short reads, with the upper bound being $2 in most cases. I am not paying $4 or more for a digital copy of part of a book.

That's common for most SOL readers, who generally being older and often retired or 'independently employed', have the time to read longer stories. However, I suspect many Amazon reader are more interested in 'quick reads', as the blogger suggests. I've noticed that whenever I write a longer book, my SOL purchases shoot up, while my independent Amazon purchases (those not tied to SOL readers) go down! :(

That's common for most SOL readers, who generally being older and often retired or 'independently employed', have the time to read longer stories.

Wattpad readers also prefer long stories and they're young. Short stories don't do well there.

I've noticed that whenever I write a longer book, my SOL purchases shoot up, while my independent Amazon purchases (those not tied to SOL readers) go down!

Could that be tied to price? Do you price your longer stories more?

Could that be tied to price? Do you price your longer stories more?

It's more tied to theme. Stories with a recognizable theme (ex: 'space opera', or 'lost youngsters searching for themselves' and the purchases shoot up, write about zombies or homeless people, and readers have to be coaxed into trying it).

For me, my purchases have always been very price inelastic, while Amazon has long pushed authors to offer their books for $.99 or free to boost purchases. For me, I'm selling to people who already know me, so they'll purchase nearly as many books as $6.99 as they will for $2.99.

I'm close to finishing a free book giveaway of a mystery, and it's registering my lowest interest (fewest participants and fewest visits to my site) than any previous contest. Go figure.

I don't buy that. The people I know read ebooks instead of paper books. The same books they would have read in paperback. It's not a different market.

No one is arguing that EVERYONE reads ebooks like that, just that it's a somewhat significant segment of the ebook marketplace, but as I suggested earlier, I suspect most of these sales are actually of the porn variety—though I haven't attempted to document it.

It makes more sense that people would read porn in short 'jags', rather than literary novels, and that coincides from claims a few fly-by-night authors I've discussed this issue have said.

But in either case, the fact of the matter is that many of Amazon's best-sellers—at least according to this one report—are the sub-novelette variety.

From my experience, it takes time to learn to appreciate ebooks, but once you do, it's not that difficult to read full novels. And we all know, that SOL readers, at least, prefer lengthy, detailed reads over brief serialized pamphlets.

My "Last Kiss" novel is 84,000 words and is 337 pages. So I don't know what he's looking at.

He said "many", not "ALL" or even "the majority of". He noticed a odd phenomena he hadn't expected, and explored what might be causing it. However, his brief analysis was hardly a thorough investigation on the issue, so I'm sure his results are ... questionable, at best. But that doesn't mean it isn't an issue.

I have KU and not prime. KU allows me to rent, borrow, what ever up to 10 books at a time most of the books that I get are regular novels in Science Fiction.

The general consensus among 'Indie Publishers', is to avoid KU, though the mainstream publishers typically decide whether to participate or not regardless of the author's opinion—though many smaller publishers refuse to deal with Amazon at all.

The general consensus among 'Indie Publishers', is to avoid KU

Not the ones I interact with. Although most prefer not to be exclusive to Amazon so they can't go KU.

I have KU and not prime.

I didn't know KU was a separate thing.
Why not get Prime? It give you a lot of stuff AND unlimited books.

I am reluctant to buy books there unless it's a known quantity I've seen reviewed in the mainstream media. I consider the partial book (without notice that it's partial) to be dishonest. I felt I was ripped off, regardless of price.

Maybe we need to start labeling our novels "Complete story" or even "Complete book, set in a continuing series". It seems stupid to have to declare that, but there are SO many people writing 10,000 to 20,000 word 'novels', it might just be necessary.

Maybe we need to start labeling our novels "Complete story" or even "Complete book, set in a continuing series". It seems stupid to have to declare that, but there are SO many people writing 10,000 to 20,000 word 'novels', it might just be necessary.

Virtual thumbs up from me.

AJ

Virtual thumbs up from me.

It's like those of us who post "All my stories are completed" whenever we post on SOL. I guess it's a wider problem than I was willing to acknowledge.

With no publisher breathing down our necks, many authors never bother completing their stories! :(

but there are SO many people writing 10,000 to 20,000 word 'novels'

I don't see that.

I don't see that.

I didn't mean in the top-10 or top 100 count, but was basing it on this blog post and our previous discussions with the SOL author who routinely posted 10,000 word 'novels' which only partially continued his stories over multiple weekly or monthly books.

I did not buy the rest of the series.

You should have returned the one you bought. Amazon has a very liberal return policy and that justified a return.

You should have returned the one you bought. Amazon has a very liberal return policy and that justified a return.

That's true. They even sell books I have they don't have an approval to sell, then a year later suck the money back saying it was returned.

They only allow returns of books you can touch - not e-books.

Not true.

My novel "Sexual Awakening" is ebook only. Just the other week, I had a sale and about a week later (time for the person to finish the book), it was returned.

ETA: Here are the actual numbers.

Sold copies on Aug 5 and Aug 22.
One returned on Aug 28.

I assume it was the Aug 22 sale that was returned 6 days later.

They only allow returns of books you can touch - not e-books.

Not true.

My novel "Sexual Awakening" is ebook only. Just the other week, I had a sale and about a week later (time for the person to finish the book), it was returned.

There's also a known history here, where many people would purchase ebooks, read the entire thing, and then return them only to repeat the process multiple times (probably reselling the stories as their own too!).

However, Amazon apparently put a stop to that, probably by deleting the accounts of anyone who returns too many books, though I've never seen a limit to how many books can be returned before you get into trouble. :(

By the way, I've had several returned, although luckily, it doesn't happen very often, as most of my new readers like my stories enough, they'll go back and purchase most of my existing stories. (Wa-Hoo!)

They only allow returns of books you can touch - not e-books.

According to the sales records I have Amazon sold an e-pub copy of Rough Diamond in Oct 2017, 2 in Sept 2017, I in April 2017, 1 in March 2017, 2 in Sept 2016, 1 in July 2016, 2 in June 2016 I in late May 2016, in early May they gave a credit of return for a sale of an e-pub of Rough Diamond sold in March 2016 (or earlier), 1 in Jan 2016, 1 in May 2015.

So they did give a credit on a return of an e-book a couple of months later. And these are all sales of a version of the book where I did NOT give Amazon approval to sell it. I withdrew approval for them to sell Rough Diamond back on 2010 or 2011. But they still sell it and now advertise the 2013 and 2015 versions for sale as Kindle e-books.

So they did give a credit on a return of an e-book a couple of months later. And these are all sales of a version of the book where I did NOT give Amazon approval to sell it.

Normally the 'return credit' is processed immediate, and the author is informed about it right away too. I'm guessing what happened in your case, is that since you're not in the U.S. marketplace, they only pay you once every month by check, in which case they probably won't register the credit until they cut the next check. (Just guessin')

Normally the 'return credit' is processed immediate, and the author is informed about it right away too. I'm guessing what happened in your case, is that since you're not in the U.S. marketplace, they only pay you once every month by check, in which case they probably won't register the credit until they cut the next check. (Just guessin')

2 things here CW, I'll deal with separately.

1. The dates make it clear the credit must relate to a sale about 2 months earlier. So they allow the return to be many days after the sale - or they delay the processing.

2. I sell through Lulu USA, so I'm on the USA market and I get paid by Lulu a month after sale via PayPal. How often Amazon pays Lulu I don't know, or what the delay is.

2.a. Amazon have not had approval to sell Rough Diamond since 2010, yet they continue to sell it without approval, and the previous approval was via Lulu, so the Amazon rules don't apply to it.

2 things here CW, I'll deal with separately.

I've never sold anything thru Amazon through a secondary party, choosing to sell directly thru Amazon itself. In those cases, the reports they display online show the refunds immediately, though the payments only arrive once a month.

I've never sold anything thru Amazon through a secondary party, choosing to sell directly thru Amazon itself. In those cases, the reports they display online show the refunds immediately, though the payments only arrive once a month.

I thought that was the case form our previous discussions on it. However, I find it more likely Amazon will process a credit to rip money off me faster than when they pay me, so when the credit is a couple of months after the last payment, it indicates the'll credit people after they had it a long time.

Also, the reason I through another party is so I can sidestep the worst aspects of the Amazon contract, but that doesn't seem to stop them selling a version of a book they don't have approval to sell.

I think they are hoping to be able to deliver "packages" for the military.

They're hoping to continue shipping packages once the zombie apocalypse arrives and UPS drivers are afraid to venture outside.

My guess is they care nothing for complaints by authors who have ditched them, but they will go to some lengths to keep an ordinary retail customer satisfied.

with emphasis on the some.

Did you say, "I demand a refund"?

I'm not aware of any policies concerning returns (i.e. I've never read any "return policy" in my Amazon TOS agreement), but the understanding seems to be that you can return anything that doesn't appeal to you, for whatever reason. As I stated earlier, I suspect they'll punish you if you start reading and returning multiple books in a row, but even then, I've never seen any stated policy about such behavior.

The idea is, if you order a book, expecting you'll like it, only to find that you don't (ex: too much, too little sex, too much or too little violence or too much or too little romance), you're free to return it for no penalty. They want appreciative fans, though they don't give a shit whether authors like them or not!

He has a valid reason to ask. I don't doubt your experience that they don't even require one, although they may take action they deem someone is 'abusing the privilege'.

Personally, I've never returned one, and as I said, I've never seen an official policy regarding the restrictions on returns, though they likely have on for their staff on handling ebook returns. My statement that they 'handle returns for any reason' is based purely on second and third-hand experience (other people saying they've returned items, though I don't know the specifics on how they returned them.

It would not have to be any particular words as long as the description was accurate. I am a fan of post apocalypse stories, and bought one e-book (I don't remember the title) that advertised it as a story of a guy caught in a PA world in New York City, who had to hike his way all across the country to his family in LA. It was a pretty good story - but the book ended with him only partway home, and said if I wanted to read the rest of the story I had to buy another book. I bitched to amazon, and somebody later changed the listing to indicate it was a 3-book series to get the whole story. If the description had said that from the beginning, I would not have felt cheated. I did not buy the rest of the series.

I run into this all the time, as I'll write one book (with no "series" attached to the title), only to add another book later. In that case, as soon as I start the next book, I add the series title (ex: "Demonic Issues 2"), though I add nothing to the story description (except where I add a "Reading the first book is required to understand this book").

In the case where I plan a full-series ahead of time, then I clearly label it as a series, even if I'm only releasing the first book out of many (ex: "Not-Quite Human 1").

Each of my books are 'complete', meaning each book can be read alone (unless the previous books are complicated, and thus require reading the previous books as noted before), but readers still deserve to know what they're getting into, so they don't feel like you're playing 'bait & switch' with them. :(

Prime users don't get unlimited free books.

I had no idea.
Thanks.

I didn't know KU was a separate thing.
Why not get Prime? It give you a lot of stuff AND unlimited books.

I don't think it was. I think they eventually broke it up into two separate things. I guess, once they greased the wheels of the free-shipping ordering with free books and movies, they decided they no longer had to give away the free goodies, so they shifted it to it's own pay service.