Forum: Author Hangout

Romance novels tend to be quick reads but the average length of the top 70 romance novels is 113,000 words! I think the author hasn't analysed the data to sufficient depth.

Romance readers typically read an entire novel per day, so yeah, they're traditionally VERY short and quite trashy (in a 'classy' way (i.e. no vulgarities or 4-letter curse words)), while, as you note, sci-fi tends to run well over 100,000 words, which is hard to read in a week!

By the way, I posted the same SW article about a month or two back, if anyone is interested in reading the posts on the topic from back then.

But the average length of the top 70 romance novels is 113,000 words. Who routinely polishes off 113,000 words in one day!

Again, since EVERY book that features a male and female (or romantically charged gays or lesbians) labels itself a 'romance') the numbers are artificially classified as romance when they're NOT. If you include sci-fi in the romance category, you're dealing with MUCH longer books than what most romance fans are clamoring for.

What we need to determine is, SW's raw numbers. What were the total numbers of books they sold, and what's the total breakdown of each category added together. If they don't equal, the entire report is nothing but garb junk. Hell, you even have zombie romance books now!

But the average length of the top 70 romance novels is 113,000 words. Who routinely polishes off 113,000 words in one day!

That sounds high. I think the sweet spot for Romance is 75,000–90,000.

Sci-Fi and Fantasy are the ones over 100K. YA are more like 60k–80k.

For straight Romance I'd put it even lower, perhaps 60,000 words. I wonder if the top 70 'Romance' novels are bi-generic.

Again, straight romance, lesbian romance, bi-romance and gay romance are ALL considered romance. As is Tentacle Monster romance. It's a meaningless category since they're counting 700 books out of every 100 sold (counting each book sold in multiple categories, with "Romance" being the most commonly used).

That sounds high. I think the sweet spot for Romance is 75,000–90,000.

Again, walk into ANY bookstore and check the romance section. At most, it'll have one, maybe two rows, and while the romance books have gotten thicker over the years, they're nowhere near 113,00 words. Again, I suspect that SW is jumbling the figures to the point they mean nothing OTHER THAN "this is how best to market YOUR book at achieve the BIGGEST sales".

Take that top stat of Romance making 73% of their sales.

It's 73% of their top 200 best-selling titles, not their total sales. Whether the number is 10 or 10,000, it's pretty clear Romance is the top of the heap in e-books from Smashwords.

Romance tops Amazon's Kindle sales.

You know your task, Ernest. It's staring you in the face. There's no getting around it.

Romance.

And remember, skip the written crap on the cover of your next romance novel. Half-dressed male or female or both, and you're gold.

bb

It's 73% of their top 200 best-selling titles, not their total sales. Whether the number is 10 or 10,000, it's pretty clear Romance is the top of the heap in e-books from Smashwords.

Ernest's main point, though, is that most books have more than a single genre selection, so the majority of books (mystery, sci-fi, historical, etc.) are also considered "romance" as long as there are men and women in them, so the romance category is artificially inflated beyond the number of actual romance (as the prime category) books.

It's a valid point.

Smashwords allows two separate genre selections, but also allows either 6 or 8 catalogue (search) selections.

are also considered "romance" as long as there are men and women in them,

Not true. The Romance genre has specific requirements. So it could have romance in it, but not be in the Romance genre.

Someone once gave me the list of what's in the Romance genre, but I don't have it. It must have a lived-happily-ever-after ending, for example.

I'm also hearing of happily-for-now.

Yep, for the life of me I couldn't remember that phrase.

Not true. The Romance genre has specific requirements. So it could have romance in it, but not be in the Romance genre.

Again, I have NEVER ONCE walked into a bookstore where 70% of the shelves contained ONLY Romance novels. That, plus the fact that the entire SW article is based around "how to market your book" leads me to assume that they're ONLY counting "classifications", not specific genres. They're advising authors to label ANYTHING they write as "Romances" in order to boost sales. And since they DON'T break down the numbers, there's nothing suggesting their numbers AREN'T bogus.

Again, SW allows two separate genre categories, which are EXTREMELY broad. They also allow you to add SEO codes, allowing eight of these. Since all of those allow the use of "Romance" as a category, every book has 10 separate chances to classify their books as "Romance".

We're not talking about the books that "Romance Monthly" considers to be Romance books, we're talking about all the books that SW considers "Romance" for marketing purposes, not for tax purposes. (I've read the SW annual reports for the past 5 or 6 years, so I'm familiar with their emphasis and how they compose their numbers.) Again, for marketing purposes, if you list a book about alien tentacle monster's invading Earth, but you add a "Romance" SEO code, SW counts it as a ROMANCE book (as best as i can determine, since they NEVER list how they define the category). The 70% number is simply an unrealistic figure otherwise.

we're talking about all the books that SW considers "Romance"

I didn't realize it was SW's classification. I don't give credit to that, just like I don't for Amazon's because it's the author who chooses it. I misunderstood the SW survey.

I didn't realize it was SW's classification. I don't give credit to that, just like I don't for Amazon's because it's the author who chooses it. I misunderstood the SW survey.

Again, I've worked with Amazon for years. It IS the authors choice, but there IS no single genre choice. Instead, you pick the two which fit you story best, while also picking another eight which also promote you best for any readers who don't find it based on the overly vague category descriptions. Thus you've got TEN different category descriptions for every single book. Without Smashwords defining which category they're defining (primary definition, primary and secondary, or all TEN categories, the result are essentially meaningless.

In the publishing word, authors get no such choice. You submit a work as a particular predefined choice, which has specific requirement for submission, and you either get accepted or you don't. There's NO confusion in that case. The book is either Romance or it's not.

For instance, my Catalyst series was classified as:
1) Hard Science Fiction
2) General Science Fiction
3) Telepathy
4) Extra-Sensory Perception
5) Romance
6) Incest? (it wasn't clear until mid-way through the second book)

So would you count that book as a Romance novel, a science fiction novel, or an incest smut fest?

You'd think they were talking about 2 different events due to the way one used raw figures and the other statistics. All statistics can be useful or bad, it depends on how you prepare them and how you relate them to the whole.

Once in a qualifying race for an un-named Olympic event there were two contestants: one Soviet, one American. The Soviet news account was: "The Soviet contestant came in second. The American placed next to last."

I read it in Reader's Digest about 40 years ago, so it must be true.

bb

The British report on the action was along the lines of:

100 men landed, 25 killed, 58 captured, 17 escaped back to the landing craft and returned. 200 trucks of supplies destroyed, 20 tanks destroyed, estimated German casualties at over 200. Raid successful.

Most Brits would claim that we won the Second World War. We went to war to restore the independence of Poland and failed - it became a Soviet vassal state.

Sorry guys, you've been a victim of spin. We lost!

AJ

We went to war to restore the independence of Poland and failed - it became a Soviet vassal state.

You can thank Eisenhower for that. Due to his hatred and wanting to kill as many German soldiers as possible, instead of rolling for Berlin he directed his main forces to southern Germany to kill more soldiers instead of capturing the high command. Many experts say that if he'd gone direct for Berlin the war would gave been over three to six months earlier and well before the Soviets got into middle Europe. Thus Ike's failure help create the scene for the Cold War - but he was too short sighted to see any issues with the Soviets who had been Adolph's friends for so long.

You still have your country.

We don't, but thanks to Brexit we're about to regain it ;)

AJ

Was Poland a broken state when it gained freedom from the Soviet Union? Moldova? Slovenia? Croatia? Slovakia?

I think voters are beginning to realise that the smaller the population involved in an election, the more important their opinion. Smaller, independent states are the way forward.

Having said that, the USA really should pull its finger out and admit Haiti as its 51st state.

In the news today, India and Australia are manoeuvring for any post-Brexit trade deals to allow free movement of people too.

AJ

Understood, although ironically, we have a very similar sense of humour.

It's true. Turn on any TV and you'll see more naked breasts anywhere outside of "Game of Thrones"! (More broken penis's too.) It's common ratings fodder for the comedy shows and news programs.

That was a pretty typical example of self-deprecating Australian humour: with an Aussie saying Europeans are good enough to be allowed into someone else's country - but Australians are not!

We got it. It was a bit heavy-handed (i.e. impossible to miss).

Haiti is an independent nation

True, but it's a basket case and the USA keeps having to solve its problems for it. 52nd state then ;)

AJ

As a broken state?

Not broken, just broke with no trading partners. But they'll be their own broke state, following their own rules dedicated to keeping Muslims out.

When Scotland segregates before the Brexit is finalized, most in the EU will argue Scotland is still a member of the EU.

Even the most ardent Scottish Nationalists now accept that another referendum won't happen until after Brexit, and anyway the last election showed the tide turning against them. Having said that, I think Scottish independence is more or less inevitable. Oddly enough, from the way that they're insisting on open borders, the Republic of Ireland would probably be quite happy to rejoin the United Kingdom if only they didn't hate us so much. We are their major trading partner and we helped bail out their banks despite having no obligation to do so.

The EU rules are clear. Scotland must apply for its own membership in order to become part of the EU. Although EU rules didn't stop the Club Med countries joining the Euro, helped by rustling up some fraudulent data to pretend their economies were in sync with the rest of the bloc.

AJ

The EU rules are clear. Scotland must apply for its own membership in order to become part of the EU.

Remind me again what Scottish nationalism has to do with the 2016 Smashwords' survey?

A SOL thread, obviously :)

AJ

When Scotland segregates before the Brexit is finalized, most in the EU will argue Scotland is still a member of the EU.

IIRC, one (IMO bogus) argument against separation during the last campaign was a separated Scotland would no longer be member of the EU.

Regardless of whether Scotland segregates, if it divorces itself from England (Scotxit), the EU will accept it as a full member simply to spite England and to teach the other EU members not to fuck with them!

I was going to reference that, but couldn't remember which side of that issue you fell on.

I'm pro-Brexit but I recognise we're going to chuck out a lot of good with the bad.

AJ

It's difficult to extract a lot of information out of this numbers. Maybe the number of books written in the different genres is corresponding to the number of sales counted. If 73% of all books are romance novels it wouldn't be much of a surprise that they also sell the most.

The key isn't whether Romance books sell the most, but rather whether the Romance category counts the same book multiple times (i.e. they count every other book in with their own totals).

That might be your key, but to me it's just a different matter.

The point of the SW missive wasn't which specific books sold the most, but how to market your book (i.e. if you want your book to sell, market it as romance, even if it's about spacefaring alien zombies. As far as I can tell, that's the only reason why Romance accounts for 70% of ALL books sold. Romance may be popular, but I doubt whether they buy 70% of everything.

To put it another way, women DON'T buy 70% of all books, nor do all women read only romance, but virtually everyone likes happy endings, and that involves the guy getting their girl (or the girl getting their girl), regardless of the nature of the book. As long as there is ANY romantic element in a book, it's classified as a "romance".

So, you are in favor to dissolve Great Britain?

No, I would prefer Scotland to stay part of the union.

The UK will crash after Brexit, crash hard.

Any reduction in trade with the EU will hit the EU harder than Britain. And we will no longer have to subsidise inefficient French farmers, fraudulent Greek olive groves, or the insane commute between the two of the three EU parliament buildings that actually get used (Brussels and Strasbourg). Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India and the USA are queuing up to make trade deals with us, and I can't see any deals being as one-sided as the one in which we had to sever our trading links with former colonies while the French kept theirs.

With a principle critic of federalism gone, the EU can progress full speed ahead, militarise, and accelerate its coming confrontation with Russia.

AJ

Sort of. They speak a variation of French, but I wouldn't bet on it being recognized as such by a resident of Paris.

NO ONE speaks French that is acceptable to Parisians other than Parisians! Just like I had to order in restaurants for my Chinese friends in Chinatown in Manhattan, French Canadians have to order in English to get served in Paris.

NCIS New Orleans occasionally drops some French into a scene to add local colour.

AJ

Maybe American Samoa would want to claim the 52nd state status? Don't they speak French in Haiti? Maybe we can foist them off on Canada, lots of French speakers there.

America has ZERO interest in adding any new states. The new-state movement froze hard when Puerto Rico was made a territory, and they couldn't bypass Puerto Rico for a smaller island.

The problem with Puerto Rico is we've offered them their pick of independence and statehood and they can't make up their minds.

That's ALWAYS been the American procedure. The Federal government doesn't FORCE the decision on anyone, as it's the original State's right issues. Once the state votes, it's the majority of voters for force everyone else in the state to bow to their will! Just because Puerto Rico still likes to pretend they're independent, they'll never quit sucking at Americas's teat, and thus they'll NEVER become a State, which means America is unlikely to ever offer any other country territory status.

America has learned, it's easier to control the world economically than it is annexing it a piece at a time and having to tax and support everyone they want to control.

We didn't offer territory status to Puerto Rico. We took it off Spain at the end of the Spanish American War along with Cuba and the Philippines.

No, but by taking it as a "U.S. Territory", that enables them a legal right to push for statehood. Given the hard feelings about Puerto Rico and the expenses in maintaining a largely poor population associate with acquiring land, the U.S. has largely turned its back on further land acquisitions.

California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona and New Mexico

ayep, they did, after President Polk ignited the war by sending US troops onto Mexican soil to get the war started so he could grab the land. Then he promptly disenfranchised everyone on the lands except the American whites in the areas.

And they lost.

They didn't 'lose', instead they were simply flatly ignored, and couldn't justify launching a war with the U.S. over it. Since they were given no opportunity to enter into the process (i.e. allowed the opportunity to file an international lawsuit) there was no way for their legal points to be considered.

But then, my personal knowledge of Texas history is sparse at best. I'm sure those raised there, and indoctrinated for years like I was in Virginia, could detail the specifics.

Thus a Romance book is ONLY a Romance book. It's not a Romance AND a sci-fi AND a Historical Drama AND a Lesbian Mystery!

It's not quite as black and white as you suggest.

The key isn't how specific the genre is, it's how often it's specified. As I stated earlier, for print books, authors can ONLY pick a single category, which makes tracking sales of books simple. For ebooks, since authors can choose 2 - 10 different categories (split between the established BISAC codes (and everyone has their own selection of codes!) and the SEO tags authors add to target specific audiences, the number of books sold gets confused as they count the same books multiple times in different categories.

It isn't that Romance readers purchase 70% of ALL books sold. Instead it's that authors market 70% of all books as "Romance" in order to boost their sales, regardless of the primary genre the book was written in.

The smashwords document we're referencing is produced every year as a way of informing authors HOW BEST to market their books (i.e. what price to charge, how best to promote them, where to focus, etc.) It's NOT a summary of how many books Smashwords sells overall.