Forum: Author Hangout

I purposely do it wrong because "she" doesn't sound right.

Really? To me it sounds perfectly fine, but that's probably because Englisch isn't my native language. Weird, when you think about it.

I always write it as "He was taller than her." I purposely do it wrong because "she" doesn't sound right.

Even CMOS agrees with you on that one. It's 5.43 states:

Strictly speaking, a pronoun serving as the complement of a be-verb or other linking verb should be in the nominative case [It was she who asked for a meeting]. In formal writing, some fastidious readers will consider the objective case to be incorrect in every instance. But in many sentences, the nominative pronoun sounds pedantic or eccentric to the modern ear [Was that he on the phone?]

I just said it didn't sound right.

My point was you know something very strange is happening when CMOS - a bunch of complete Grammar Nazis about everything else - recommend anything they deem not "strictly speaking" correct.
I think using 'her' in the example you quoted does not just sound right. I think it is right. And it is the rule most are convinced exists that is inadequately defined. If the rule was as simple as most believe then native speakers would consistently get it right without even thinking about it!

Billy and Me Went to the Store.

But those of us who are unconstrained by independence always follow the Queen's English, and she invariably commences with "My husband and I …", so it sounds VERY correct to us.

'Billy and I went to the store' is a more formal way of talking. But again, which is appropriate for the character that you as the author are describing?

I think you're raising a different issue. Dialogue should always be true to the character, no matter how uneducated their speech may be.
What we've been discussing here would only apply to narrative, when most authors are trying to be grammatically correct, or at least not so incorrect readers will think they've made a mistake.
I would still not write 'Billy and me went to the store' in narrative, but I would no longer be so adamant that doing so is flat-out-wrong!
There are definitely occasions when I would use 'me' as the subject of a verb.
Consider the question, 'Who did that?' I think either 'Me' or 'I did' are acceptable answers to that, but 'I' and 'Me did' sound obviously wrong. That example alone is enough to convince me the distinction for personal pronouns cannot be as simple as whether or not they are the subject or object of a verb.

'Who did that?' I think either 'Me' or 'I did' are acceptable answers

'Me' can't be 'right' there, except that it is in dialogue and some folk say it. The test I usually use is, what is (e.g.) 'me' shortening? 'Me did it'? 'Me was the one'? Perhaps 'Pick me'? I think not ...

'Me' can't be 'right' there, except that it is in dialogue and some folk say it. The test I usually use is, what is (e.g.) 'me' shortening? 'Me did it'? 'Me was the one'? Perhaps 'Pick me'? I think not ...

So what would you choose for a one-word answer, 'I' or 'Me'?
To me, 'I' on its own, with an implied verb, sounds unnatural. However, it is 'me' that sounds unnatural once the verb is stated?!
I've never seen anything that explains this apparent anomaly, thus my conclusion that something must be missing from the "rule" as most people understand it to be.

So what would you choose for a one-word answer, 'I' or 'Me'?

Moi

So what would you choose for a one-word answer

I wouldn't. For me, the appropriate minimum answer is 'I did'. I don't think I would ever answer with 'me', because it's a kid's answer.

I would always choose "I did it." "Me did it," sounds (awful).

I agree that once you choose to use the verb 'did', then 'Me' definitely sounds wrong.
But what if you answer with just one word? Now, IMO, it is 'I' that sounds wrong, and 'Me' sounds natural.
How can you explain that, other than concluding what everybody thinks is the "rule" is inadequate?

How can you explain that, other than concluding what everybody thinks is the "rule" is inadequate?

Or not so much that it's inadequate, but it isn't the real rule at all.

I can't imagine answering an accusation with either "me" or "I".

I'm trying to discuss a point of grammar here: that there's an apparent anomaly between when someone gives a one-word or longer answer to a simple question.
What if the question was, 'Who wants this?' What would be your one-word answer to that, 'I' or 'Me'?

If you get in trouble/get confused using one-word sentences, the solution seems to be ... write complete sentences.

Why? :)

"I do! I do!"

I give up. There's no point in me attempting to have a serious discussion with you about this when you're determined to continue making flippant responses.

Is the answer "it was me"

Yes.
I think the answer is definitely, 'It was me', despite the fact that 'me' is being equated to the subject of that sentence, so it should, technically, be in the subjective case too.
I'd already recognised that was the reason for the apparent anomaly. The one-word answer, 'me', is not a contraction of 'Me did it', but of 'It was me'.
I just continued my exchange with CW because he irritated me, shutting down the exchange by pedantically picking apart the example I chose to demonstrate a point of grammar with an objection it wasn't bloody realistic!

I wasn't trying to shut down the conversation, just observing that I wouldn't and don't use the expression "It is me." For me, that just sounds completely wrong.

This answer was not flippant.
So which would you prefer, 'It is I' or 'It is me'?

@Switch Blayde
Grammar Girl says "It is I" is grammatically correct. However, to my ear, that sounds very formal.
@Crumbly Writer
Likely a regional (or more likely an educational) variant.

That's why I was asking the question.
This may be an Australian thing, with our loathing of any hint of pretentiousness, but I would probably always use the objective case for anything of the form, It be-verb pronoun.

I've never heard anyone say it in real life.

Clearly, we have never spoken :-) I use it all the time, as do others I know.

@EB
I've never heard anyone say it in real life.
@Zom
Clearly, we have never spoken :-) I use it all the time, as do others I know.

That suggests some sort of regional (or educational) variations.
EB and I, both Aussies, use the objective case. You and CW use the nominative case.
It seems like this thread has resulted in 'two steps back' for my level of understanding. :-(

resulted in 'two steps back' for my level of understanding

I don't think it is regional in this part of the world. It could well be environmental.

I have learned that when I think I fully understand something, I invariably don't :-)

"It is I"

… baby puppy :-)

she invariably commences with "My husband and I …", so it sounds VERY correct to us.

That is correct only if spoken in a high, raspy contralto with a pinky-erect hand gesture.

That is correct only if spoken in a high, raspy contralto with a pinky-erect hand gesture.

You didn't mention the tea sipping, which has also been attendant for more than 65 years. Head of many things, including the language.

John McWhorter addressed this in one of his Lexicon Valley linguistics podcasts

That podcast is very interesting.
I started listening to it with a very healthy dose of skepticism, but found the case it made compelling.
Almost all native speakers acquire a vast number of grammatical rules and idiomatic usages at an early age, without ever being told, and then get them unerringly correct without needing to think about them. There is no logical basis for many of these rules: they just are. The 'natural order' of adjectives is an example of a complicated set of rules native speakers somehow manage to learn and get right instinctively, despite the complete lack of any rationale for why one order sounds "right" and all other orders sound "wrong".
So why is it that so many native speakers so often get it "wrong" for this seemingly simple and logical rule: use this set of pronouns (I, you, he, she, we, they) for the subjects of verbs, and this set of pronouns (me, you, him, her, us, them) for the objects of verbs?
The undeniable, but disturbing, conclusion is that the actual "rule" cannot that simple!
I'm not aware of anyone who's managed to define the actual rule satisfactorily, i.e. one that lists the set of circumstances when 'me' is valid as the subject of a verb. It may not even be impossible to figure that out now - after such a long period of people being told they should follow a rule that is wrong, it's used so often it now sounds okay. This rule has taken on a life of its own, although it may be as invalid as previous beliefs about not splitting infinites and not ending sentences with a preposition.
So what should we do as authors of fiction? I would suggest:
- In all cases where one pronoun sounds wrong, we should use the one which sounds right - without even considering whether it is the subject or object of its verb.
- In cases where both pronouns sound okay, we should decide based on whether it is the subject or object of its verb, on the grounds that is what what many readers believe should be done.

"She laid down on the bed"

Maybe the down was feathers, like in a down pillow, then laying them down was better than lying them down.

When I lie in bed I tell untruths (two plus two equals three).

You must be a blast in the sack! 'D

He's a firecracker in paper bag?

Question: "Who gives this woman ...?"
Answer: "Me!"

That's something I have never heard.

Wouldn't it be odd for the father of the bride to be saying "I do" at a wedding?

multiply like rabid bunnies

LOL.

multiply like rabid bunnies

Um - wouldn't rabid bunnies be dead before they gave birth? Copulate like rabid bunnies maybe, but not multiply. Quite the reverse :-) Always assuming wabies kills wabbits.

ETA. Wabies does kill wabbits :-(