Forum: Author Hangout

Hyphenation in English

helmut_meukel 🚫

Are there any rules for hyphenation in English? I just stumbled over the end-of-line break of a name in the Kindle-for-PC app.
The name in question was McGonagle and the app broke it as McG-onagle. Startled I slightly adjusted the line width and got these results: full name either as last word at the end of the line or first word on the next line and two hyphenations: McG-onagle and McGo-nagle, both looking ridiculous to me.
In my native language (German) hyphenation is strictly regulated. If asked to break the name McGonagle at the end-of-line I would have opted for no break or reluctantly chosen Mc-Gonagle or even more reluctantly McGon-agle, but never ever the two breaks the Kindle app selected.

What are the thoughts of you native English speakers about end-of-line breaks an hyphenation?

HM.

Replies: jimq2 Switch Blayde awnlee jawking jimq2 BlacKnight irvmull awnlee jawking Switch Blayde

jimq2 🚫

@helmut_meukel

I was taught that a proper name shouldn't be split and the whole name carried to the next line. Of course that was a typing class in the early 60's.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@jimq2

I was taught that a proper name shouldn't be split and the whole name carried to the next line. Of course that was a typing class in the early 60's.

I was taught the same in the late 80s, but the auto hyphenation in word processors isn't that intelligent. If it's a problem, you can turn it off.

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@helmut_meukel

McG-onagle and McGo-nagle, both looking ridiculous to me

Kindle for PC did it wrong for more than one reason.

1. Proper names and proper adjectives are not broken up.

2. Even if it wasn't a proper noun, you break a word at a syllable break.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Are there any rules for hyphenation in English?

This isn't really a question about English grammar, is it. There are probably rules about hyphenation in English grammar but it strikes me this is more in the realm of typesetting.

AJ

Replies: jimq2

jimq2 🚫

@awnlee jawking

It also applied to handwriting.

jimq2 🚫

@helmut_meukel

It was funny with all the jocks making fun of me for taking a "girl's" class. I was the only guy in a class with 29 HS girls. Made for a very interesting class. When I was at college 2 years later, I made a lot of money typing term papers for other students who couldn't type. I made enough with an old heavy duty office Underwood manual typewriter (weighing about 40#) that by the end of October I bought a new Smith-Corona electric portable.

Replies: The Outsider rustyken TheDarkKnight

The Outsider 🚫

@jimq2

Like when typing was taught in my school during Eighth Grade (for everyone), did you have to spend half your time untangling the keys of the manual typewriter?

Replies: jimq2

jimq2 🚫

@The Outsider

Only for the first couple of weeks. After that I learned not to hit more than one key at a time. By the mid term, I was number 5 in the class, and after the final exam, I was ranked third for speed and accuracy. One of the few non math/science classes where I got an A. I also got more dates than the previous 2 years

Replies: Inspectot

Inspectot 🚫

@jimq2

Good for you! In one typing speed test based on the errors I had I ended up with something like NEGATIVE 8 words per minute. Didn't thing it was possible.

rustyken 🚫

@jimq2

Of all the courses I took in high school, typing class is a significant as the math, chemistry and english, if not more so. Cause today many avenues of communication require keyboard skills

Replies: jimq2

jimq2 🚫

@rustyken

I don't know when you were in HS, but you have to remember that back in the early 60's there weren't computers on every desk. The only people that had to type were secretaries. As a company executive, my father dictated all his letters either to a steno or a dicta-phone until he retired in the late 70's. Then a secretary would type it. It wasn't until about 20 years later that IBM PC's started appearing on executive desks.

Replies: rustyken

rustyken 🚫
Updated:

@jimq2

As to high school, I think 1958 -1959 school year was the year I took typing. Never was very fast, but fast enough to meet my needs.

TheDarkKnight 🚫

@jimq2

Boy, that brings back memories. I was also the only boy taking typing in the ninth grade, a choice I was very happy with later in life. The teacher, a grumpy middle-aged woman, often forgot I was there, addressing the class as "ladies" or "girls".

My favorite moment happened during the second week of classes. We were all pounding away at some basic keying exercise while the teacher walked around the room watching. Finally, she had seen enough. She stormed to the front of the room and declared, "I've been trying and trying to get you girls to touch type, but you're all still just hunt-and-peckers."

The room was silent for a few seconds, then one girl giggled, and it was all over. The classroom erupted in laughter, while I slunk down in my seat, trying to turn invisible.

Replies: jimq2

jimq2 🚫

@TheDarkKnight

My teacher was a very proper, ex-military. He had been a clerk in Korea (think Radar) and completed college on the GI bill with a Business Admin/Education major. He also taught business courses such as Bookkeeping, and Personal Finance (how to balance a checkbook).

BlacKnight 🚫

@helmut_meukel

There are rules, but the hyphenation heuristics in browsers and whatnot tend to be somewhere between very bad and extremely bad at following them, especially for words that aren't in their dictionaries.

irvmull 🚫

@helmut_meukel

I was a reporter/columnist back in the IBM Selectric days. I became a very fast typist and developed a rhythm so I could sometimes detect a typo by sound alone.

Then we changed to computers, and my typing speed slowed.

I sorta miss those Selectrics, but not the maintenance. Our large office had a dedicated IBM guy in-house to keep 'em all spinning along.

Replies: jimq2

jimq2 🚫

@irvmull

IBM Selectric

I remember the type ball continuing to type after I lifted my fingers from the keyboard.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Are there any rules for hyphenation in English?

There aren't that many options:
E-nglish
En-glish
Eng-lish
Engl-ish
Engli-sh
Englis-h
plus the double, triple, quadruple, pentuple combinations plus the sextuple hyphenation
E-n-g-l-i-s-h

AJ

Replies: Diamond Porter

Diamond Porter 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Of these, only Eng-lish is considered correct.

If there were a verb meaning to make something into a glish, that would be hyphenated as "en-glish."

Back when people considered themselves to be "Engles" it may have been correct to use engl-ish. (To anticipate certain other commenters, the most virtuous of these were called "right Angles," and a baby might be "a cute Angle," but most of them insisted on replying to every question with puns, and were referred to as "obtuse Angles.")

It is only correct to hyphenate as E-nglish if you mean the online or electronic version of nglish.

With an em-dash instead of a hyphen, someone might say, "I'm taking a course in the Department of Engli-- Sh! I heard someone!"

I can think of no case where it would be correct to write englis-h. There is also no benefit to hyphenating in a way that doesn't make the line shorter.

Replies: awnlee jawking BlacKnight

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Diamond Porter

There is also no benefit to hyphenating in a way that doesn't make the line shorter.

For typesetting and handwriting hyphens, I thought the point was to show the word would continue on the next line.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son Diamond Porter

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

For typesetting and handwriting hyphens, I thought the point was to show the word would continue on the next line.

To my mind, unless you are doing full justification (which I personally hate), or the word is ridiculously long, hyphenation for that doesn't make sense. Just put the whole word on the next line.

Diamond Porter 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Yes, that is correct. What I meant was that hyphenating in a way that only moves one letter to the next line serves no purpose: having "Englis-" on the line takes just as much space as having "English" does.

Having given it a little more thought, if the font is not monospaced, that might save you a fraction of an en (an en being the width of the letter n in the selected font). If there is punctuation at the end of the word, as in, "I only speak English," then you may save a little more. Despite that, I think style guides say that you need at least two letters before the hyphen and at least two letters after.

BlacKnight 🚫

@Diamond Porter

With an em-dash instead of a hyphen, someone might say, "I'm taking a course in the Department of Engli-- Sh! I heard someone!"

But then you'll be accused of being an LLM.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Typesetting is not a skillset of mine, but my opinion is that this problem is caused by ebooks requiring the formatting be done dynamically because the reader can change things like margins and font size.

When a typesetter lays out a printed book, they know exactly how the words will appear on a page and choose breaking up a word at the end of a line accordingly. They might even come to a different determination if the rest of the word is on the next line on the same page vs. the first line on the next page. I don't think they would break up the word in the latter case.

However, all that changes with ebooks for the reason I mentioned above — it's not static. So when the ebook reader's software displays the words on the screen, it has to make the decision dynamically to leave a large space at the end of the line or break up the word with a hyphen.

Based on the OP's example, that software is pretty dumb and does it wrong.

But, like I said, it's not one of my skillsets. I'm just thinking about it logically.

Reply to topic

Home | Forum | All Threads by Date

Forum Rules |

Forum: Author Hangout

Hyphenation in English

WARNING! ADULT CONTENT...