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Middle class?

PotomacBob 🚫

Many stories on SOL use the term "middle class" to describe characters. If you use the term, what do you mean by it? The U.S., I was taught back in the Dark Ages, had no class structure. I suspect that when we use "middle class" today, what we really mean is "middle income" rather than the social class between the nobility and the peasantry. How do you define "middle class" in your stories?

FantasyLover 🚫

@PotomacBob

You're right. Insert "income" instead of "class."

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Yeah, in the U.S. it's income. In politics, the term is thrown around to get votes.

Replies:   garymrssn
garymrssn 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The U.S., I was taught back in the Dark Ages, had no class structure.

That was a Utopian fiction used to reduce friction between the upper class and lower class students and teach children not to mention it, just like sex, in polite company.

EricR 🚫

@PotomacBob

The United States has a class structure. It's simply built around income and ethnicity, not titles. But let's not have any illusions - from the creation of the country class was evident. Madison openly worried that if the poor were given the vote then they would vote themselves benefits. Hence the common restriction that only male landowners could vote.

Replies:   fohjoffs
fohjoffs 🚫

@EricR

that if the poor were given the vote

Yep. We've all seen what allowing the masses to vote did for America...

And you seem to have a problem with the history of American civics.

Pre and post-revolutionary war America had several systems established by the colonials and later by the founders. The 'poor relief system' and almshouses were established on the local level of governments because there was no centralized authority in early America, other than the crown, so there were no federal government programs.

There was no social security system in America until 1935, which is what we voted for. After five generations of 'benefits', we have a corrupt, nepotic, and cruel system that benefits the continuation of the Bureaucracy. The masses are too stupid to think long-term. The masses are not willing to recieve an education that would enable critical and analytical thought. The masses are educated by a bureaucracy that has no other purpose than to promulgate itself.

The founders were not stupid. They did not want the electorate of the ignorant mob.

Here is my proposal. Pass math, physics, and civics exams; write an essay on critical thought; serve your community for at least a year, then you will be granted a full citizenship with voting rights.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@fohjoffs

One way to look at it is that the founders did not want an ignorant mob running the country. The other is that they wanted to preserve the privilege of the wealthy. You say potato… you know the rest.

In any case, it's entirely appropriate to describe an American "middle class", or "working class". The country has elites, by design. It is a grand experiment in a new kind of democratic government - a constitutional democracy - but it contained classism from the beginning. That was my point. Referencing Madison's own words at the 1787 Constitution Convention and later in Federalist 10 was simply to support that point, no matter what your civics classes taught you.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@EricR

It is a grand experiment in a new kind of democratic government - a constitutional democracy

Actually, what the founders of the US created was a constitutional republic with a very small number of democratic elements.

If you do a read through of the main body of the US Constitution without any of the amendments, it defines six offices.

Representative
Senator
Chief Justice
Elector
Vice President
President

Of these six offices, the only one that the original constitution contemplated being elected directly by the people was Representative.

Senators were to be appointed by the state legislatures.

Electors were to be selected in a manner chosen by the state legislatures. This still stands. It would be entirely constitutional even today for a state legislature to decide that rather than an election they will choose the electors themselves. Note that I am not saying that there wouldn't be political consequences for a state that did this.

Chief Justice to be nominated by the President.

Vice President and President were to be "elected" by the Electors.

The constitution calls for the federal government to ensure that the states have a republican form of government not a democratic one.

Replies:   EricR
EricR 🚫

@Dominions Son

You are right, and I conflated the current US (evolved to be today's democratic republic) with the historical intent. I was imprecise to say the least.

Comedy 🚫

@PotomacBob

In the us the class structure is mostly illusory. There is a social pressure to be in what is referred to as the 'middle class' which ranges from people that would be considered middle class elsewhere, but mostly consists of the working poor. So, middle class will extend from people living paycheck to paycheck up to people that are burgeoning on 'wealthy' with them all claiming to be middle class in spite of it.

The same thing is true of 'small business' owner that will include everything from the guy selling stuff out of his garage to multi-million dollar companies trying to claim they qualify.

and lets not get into 'family-owned farm.'

fohjoffs 🚫

@PotomacBob

My second take on 'class structure', literally.

Programming languages such as Java and C# are designed such that everything should live within a defined and declared class. I think this to be analogous to demographers.

As such, my nephew did a high school project where he modeled flows of money per a classless society vs a society with well-defined classes. He literally used the principles and syntax found within the formal IEC definitions of five programming languages.

He was, per his strategic interests looking forward to getting accepted at certain schools in his future, was careful with his conclusions. Being the accomplished asshole that I am, I helped my nephew draft a paper that could be considered either 'progressive' or 'conservative', depending on the reader's internal bias.

My nephew's private (unpublished) conclusion was that the concept of economic class can be well defined, but is only regionally valid, and is a dynamic vector. Social class is not well defined per stats, as it is a perception, where the only use of social class is to define the assumption, flow, and end-points of power.

FWIW, my nephew was accepted into a two big-name schools, eventually earning a terminal degree in his field of study. His undergrad acceptance was largely based on that paper.

Based on this, my conlusion is that the concept of Class is used as a manipulative instrument by media, governments, and corporations. The concept of class is intended to influence goal-seeking, and/or as a carrot to dangle and manipulate the ignorant masses. One of my future tomes is based on this - coming soon to a website near you.

fohjoffs 🚫

@PotomacBob

My second take on 'class structure', literally.

Programming languages such as Java and C# are designed such that everything should live within a defined and declared class. I think this to be analogous to demographers.

As such, my nephew did a high school project where he modeled flows of money per a classless society vs a society with well-defined classes. He literally used the principles and syntax found within the formal IEC definitions of five programming languages.

He was, per his strategic interests looking forward to getting accepted at certain schools in his future, was careful with his conclusions. Being the accomplished asshole that I am, I helped my nephew draft a paper that could be considered either 'progressive' or 'conservative', depending on the reader's internal bias.

My nephew's private (unpublished) conclusion was that the concept of economic class can be well defined, but is only regionally valid, and is a dynamic vector. Social class is not well defined per stats, as it is a perception, where the only use of social class is to define the assumption, flow, and end-points of power.

FWIW, my nephew was accepted into a two big-name schools, eventually earning a terminal degree in his field of study. His undergrad acceptance was largely based on that paper.

Based on this, my conlusion is that the concept of Class is used as a manipulative instrument by media, governments, and corporations. The concept of class is intended to influence goal-seeking, and/or as a carrot to dangle and manipulate the ignorant masses. One of my future tomes is based on this - coming soon to a website near you.

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