Forum: Author Hangout

No, but it's a documented tendency of AI. A late-development tendency, as reported by the NY Times on Dec. 12th (?). Basically, it vacuumed up a bunch of 'Literary' works, noted the use of em-dashes, so now it uses the em-dashes more than any author would normally use, yet never uses the similar em-dashes. It's CLEARLY a sign of AI created text. But, aside from the Times, it hasn't been widely reported. Three guesses why in the current race multiple sources to have their AI declared superior than the others, which each is only getting worse.

But I've also seen numerous stories which are clearly marked as AI written. So anyone who hasn't noticed simply isn't paying attention.

Basically, anyone who hasn't a clue how to write can now just provide a few prompt and write an entire saga in record time. It'l still read like crap, yet their ratings don't seem to matter, they just like the attention and views by those who don't know any better.

I notice, because I've long been lamenting the new AIs, so I pay attention every time I see an AI-written story. Normally, when someone supposedly used it for spell-checking or proofing, they'd openly declare that. That's not happening with the vast majority of the AI-craft stories.

Trying to hide the evidence doesn't eliminate their growing predominance.

And LOAnnie, so have I, yet I've always understood how to use them, before including them in stories.

Again, we now have more 6-rated and under stories than ever, where the 'authors' brag about how popular they are then actually describing the story. If they don't even know the stories they're generating, that doesn't help anyone on the site.

I've always been eager to help anyone who's interested in learning the more technical details of writing, yet that simply ain't happening now.

Which is why I'm now visiting SOL's main page less and less, because there just aren't that many decent stories anymore, and I can always catch up on any missed chapters easily enough.

This is a new al-time low for SOL, and it doesn't make any of us look good. Yet anytime anyone complains, you're quick to assure us that there are no problems of any kind.

I'm now spending more time reading long-archived stories than I am bothering with anything new.

Sorry about the rhetoric, but I am pretty pissed over these issues. But then there are always the classics. I've seen popular sits fail before, I'd just rather it not happen to SOL.

It's CLEARLY a sign of AI created text.

I've run AI detectors on my text, and they generally come back as 'human'. I make extensive use of em-dashes, but I break convention — there is a space on either side of them.

When I re-tested a chapter without the space on either side of the em-dash, I got a 'likely AI' for the same, exact, completely human-written text.

I use spell checkers, and that's it. The AI grammar checkers are pretty much all shite. I could regale you with the garbage they've suggested during some tests, but I'll just give one example:

Original text: "The Chicago Bears are favored by a field goal."

AI 'Corrected' text: "A field goal favors the Chicago Bears.

🤦🏼‍♂️

That was one of many, many outright stupid things it suggested for one 6000-word chapter. And that test was a few weeks ago. AI has a long, long way to go.

When I re-tested a chapter without the space on either side of the em-dash, I got a 'likely AI' for the same, exact, completely human-written text.

That's interesting and something that befuddles me.

An em-dash without the spaces (xxx—xxx) is the convention for novels while with the spaces (xxx — xxx) is the convention for webpages.

What does the convention have to do with whether it's AI generated or not? Makes no sense.

An em-dash without the spaces (xxx—xxx) is the convention for novels while with the spaces (xxx — xxx) is the convention for webpages.

What does the convention have to do with whether it's AI generated or not? Makes no sense.

My guess would be that early AI's were largely trained on out-of-copyright novels which, because of their age, contained far more spaceless em-dashes than modern literature. Hence early AIs generated text with lots of spaceless em-dashes. AI is marking its own homework.

AJ

An em-dash without the spaces (xxx—xxx) is the convention for novels while with the spaces (xxx — xxx) is the convention for webpages.

Well, for what it's worth, the Wikipedia page on dashes uses the em-dash without spaces. Take that for what it's worth.

Well, for what it's worth, the Wikipedia page on dashes uses the em-dash without spaces.

I found the following:

Whether to put spaces around an em dash (—) depends on the style guide: Chicago, APA, and MLA use no spaces (closed), making the dash feel part of the text for emphasis, while AP Style (journalism) uses spaces (—) for readability in narrow columns**, with some British styles also preferring spaces. The main rule is consistency, but generally, book/academic writing uses closed em dashes, and news/online articles might use spaced ones.

Dash without spaces connect words

Those are hyphens. Like "make-up" and "hard-on" and "blue-gray shirt."

Dashes (em-dash or en-dash) do not connect words.

The en-dash is basically used instead of the word "through" as in "1 through 10" or "1–10". It's a range.

The em-dash has several uses, such as, interrupted speech in dialogue, instead of parentheses, instead of the colon.

Dash that isn't separate from the world parts by a space connects words, regardless of its length.

I guess you missed my point. Dashes do not connect words, regardless of their length. The space or absence of a space doesn't change that. The space (or lack of it) is simply a style, not a punctuation rule.

To read English properly you need to know how punctuation works. What are the rules of a period? A comma? A pair of commas? Double and single quotes? The question mark? The apostrophe? The ellipsis? The colon and semi-colon? The parenthesis? The hyphen? And, the two types of dashes?

If the reader doesn't know how each is used, how can he understand what's written? And of course that's paramount to the writer using it correctly.

Arguing whether or not to use spaces with the dashes is appropriate since it's a style thing. But not accepting that the two dashes are part of English punctuation is something else. Saying the hyphen and the dash are the same is wrong.

If the reader doesn't know how each is used, how can he understand what's written? And of course that's paramount to the writer using it correctly.

It's not that simple. US and UK use different punctuation standards. One example is with quotations and punctuation.

In US English, periods and commas are placed inside quotation marks, while in UK English, they are typically placed outside unless they are part of the quoted material.

Additionally, US English uses double quotation marks for primary quotes and single for quotes within quotes, whereas UK English uses single quotation marks for primary quotes and double for quotes within quotes.

Another example is that Mr., Mrs., and Ms. all take periods in US English. In UK English, the periods are omitted.

Don't get me started on dates (the US way MM/DD/YY is f-cking stupid, and I say that as an American!).

There are other differences as well. All are correct, and the reader has to adapt to the writer's style.

When I was brung up, UK English has these periods. I haven't checked a style guide to find when it became acceptable to omit them, rather than just laziness/ignorance of the rule.

See, e.g.,

https://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/abbreviations_contractions_full_stops_periods.htm

https://prowritingaid.com/grammar/1000068/Should-I-use-a-period-after-titles-like-Mrs-%2c-Dr-%2c-and-Capt-

In US English, periods and commas are placed inside quotation marks, while in UK English, they are typically placed outside unless they are part of the quoted material.

This might be true for academic works, but it's not the case for fiction or journalism. I've been putting the punctuation inside the quotation marks for the best part of 40 years. That's how I was taught to do it in primary school in the 80s

Here's an example on the BBC's website (Can't get more British than that!). You can see a quote from Chelsea in the 3rd paragraph that includes the punctuation inside the quotes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c8exj6w3y41o

That's dialogue, not quotation.

AJ

One thing I have noticed in AI written "journalism" is the use of the plural for all collective nouns.

Are you sure that's AI? I've noticed it's now the norm (which I hate).

Em dash is alt+0151
En dash is alt+0150
A bullet is alt+0149
A degree symbol (for temperatures) is alt+0176

Mac short-cuts for those are:

Em-dash is shift + opt + hyphen
En-dash is opt + hyphen
A bullet is opt + 8
A degree symbol (for temperatures) is shift + opt + 8

I don't use bullets and degrees (well, sometimes the degree), but I do use the ellipsis

Ellipsis is opt + ;

I'm sure the PC has equivalent short-cuts.

It's not the eighteenth century anymore. We're not writing for a select group of educated elites who read your stories to appreciate your craftsmanship.
Seriously, go to an office worker and ask them which keys they have to press to type an em-dash. I did that, and 5/5 could NOT answer it, because barely ANYONE (other than LLMs) use them anymore. Most of them didn't even know what I was talking about. And when I explained it

I use dashes all the time and have done since I started posting here way back in 2002. My occasional editor -Tenderloin- picked me up on it in the pieces they have worked on over the years. In fact, I had to send them an e-email asking for clarification about it as I had no understanding what they were on about -still don't.

Tenderloin went on about the difference between the long and short version -which, as you might expect, went in one eyeball and out the other- which only confused me further, as my keyboard only has the one sized/lengthed dash. In order to get the 'other' length, I was told the hoops to go through to get it. Needless to say, I immediately forgot how to do so and now no longer bother. Which probably annoys Tenderloin no end (sorry!).

my keyboard only has the one sized/lengthed dash.

Your keyboard is missing many characters. Does that mean you won't use one that is needed because it's not on your keyboard? Like the ellipsis, for example. Sure, you can type in three periods, but that's not the same. Or the degree symbol, as in 98°.

BTW, in plain text where most special characters don't exist, the em-dash is represented with a double hyphen, as in --. Products like Word typically convert a -- to an em-dash, but if you see a --, it's an em-dash. I have closed caption on when I watch movies and sometimes see the --.

Your keyboard is missing many characters. Does that mean you won't use one that is needed because it's not on your keyboard? Like the ellipsis, for example. Sure, you can type in three periods, but that's not the same. Or the degree symbol, as in 98°.

BTW, in plain text where most special characters don't exist, the em-dash is represented with a double hyphen, as in --. Products like Word typically convert a -- to an em-dash, but if you see a --, it's an em-dash. I have closed caption on when I watch movies and sometimes see the --.

Whoosh! 🛫 :waves a hand above their head...:

I look down and see only one dash, not two of different lengths. Is this a feature of UK keyboards or just this particular make? I have no idea. There is not a double hyphen either. As Sarkasmus mentioned above, it could simply be manufacturers phasing them out as less and less people are using them these days.

I look down and see only one dash,

Actually, what you see on your keyboard isn't a dash. It's a hyphen.

To get the -- you simply hit the hyphen key twice. Like hitting the period 3 times to get an equivalent to the ellipsis.

The link published by @whisperclaw mentions double and triple em-dashes ;-)

AJ

The link published by @whisperclaw mentions

I didn't follow that link. I just did and ran into an example I don't agree with. The example is:

"Of course you have a point," Mabel murmured. "That is—I suppose it is concerning."

I don't put spaces before and after an em-dash since I follow the Chicago Manual of Style, but in that example I would have a space after the em-dash. Why? Because it's the end of an interrupted sentence and you have a space between sentences. By the way, if it's a question that's interrupted, I include the question mark, as in, "Why don't you—?"

As to the double and triple em-dashes, I don't use those.

By the way, if it's a question that's interrupted, I include the question mark, as in, "Why don't you—?"

If I understand Merriam Webster correctly, it advocates putting the question mark before the em-dash(es).

AJ

If I understand Merriam Webster correctly, it advocates putting the question mark before the em-dash(es).

I'd use … instead of — in that instance, and the ? would follow the …. But I have my own style guide.

it advocates putting the question mark before the em-dash

But then it looks like a completed sentence to me not an interrupted one.

What I've read states the em-dash replaces the period and comma, but it never mentions the question mark or exclamation mark. So I stick them at the end (after the em-dash). The whole idea is to be consistent and that's my consistency. :)

...but now the em-dashes suddenly have spaces around them, to throw off AI-detection tools.

Scheiße! Now I wish I hadn't revealed that!

with metaphors that make no sense

I personally think that AI similes that make no sense are worse.

One 'tell' I've noticed is that AI likes to name-check the major characters present in a scene with short phrases to describe what each character is doing.

AJ

The em-dash is —
The en-dash is –

They may look the same (depending on the font), but the em-dash is a 'long hyphen', and the en-dash is is traditionally half the width of an em dash. Think the space of an 'm' versus the space of an 'n'.

The 'en-dash' is used for, among other things, ranges of numbers such as 20–30.

The 'em-dash' is used for parenthetical remarks or to substitute for a colon. E.g., "The colors of the American and French flags — red, white, and blue — are used in different configurations." Or, "There are three countries participating — USA, Sweden, and Germany."

The 'em-dash' is used for parenthetical remarks or to substitute for a colon. E.g., "The colors of the American and French flags — red, white, and blue — are used in different configurations." Or, "There are three countries participating — USA, Sweden, and Germany."

The em-dash is also used for dialogue that is cut off (vs the ellipsis when the dialogue fades out).

"Who do you think you're—"

"Shut up!"

or

"You! You! I wish— Oh, never mind. Screw it."

I can think of a couple of SOL authors whose dialogue scenes look rather similar. Horrible, isn't it. My 'page down' key gets lots of use with their stories.

AJ

Fine prompt. But I think AI could have done a better job. The text was not especially interesting or entertaining. And the non-sequiturs didn't add anything. They subtracted by getting in the way. The cat might prefer to be in better story. In essence, this didn't feel real. It felt more like a couple of people in a stage play that needs a lot of work. Around here most people of a certain age still call it The Sears Tower. Most people still call it Fields. Maybe in New York some people still call it Idlewild. And does anyone call it Gulf of America? Almost for certain Mount McKinley doesn't care.

While the Trump Kennedy debacle is of some interest, maybe it's too real for fiction. And in many ways maybe it just doesn't matter. Heck, why don't we rename New York New Trump? And put his picture on the Bit Coin? A lot of towns have a sign on the highways entering town saying Mayor So-And-So Welcomes You. Usually after the next election they get a new sign. Maybe a bigger sign so as to provide more cover for the speed trap.

I gave CoPilot this prompt:

A middle-aged couple, John and Mary, have lived in Pleasantville for all of their lives. It's a small suburban town in the Midwest. The local library, always known as The Pleasantville Library, has been in the town for more than one hundred years and the building needs considerable work. A well-to-do local realtor has offered to provide a million dollars toward the renovation with the provision that the library be named after her. John thinks this is a bad idea. Mary doesn't mind. As the two are having breakfast one morning, Mary, who has to catch a train to her job in the city, asks John if he can pick up the new Stephen King novel that the library has on hold for her after he drops their child off at school. Please write the beginning of a story about this situation, including a lot of dialogue between John and Mary.

Here's a beginning that leans into the domestic rhythm of their morning, the small‑town texture of Pleasantville, and the tension humming quietly beneath their conversation. I've kept the dialogue front‑and‑center, as you asked:

John was standing at the stove, coaxing the last bit of crispness into the bacon, when Mary hurried into the kitchen with one earring in and the other clenched between her teeth.

"You're up early," he said without turning. "Train running on time today?"

She made a muffled sound, then popped the second earring into place. "Supposedly. But you know how it is. If it's not late, it's early, and if it's on time, it's a miracle."

John slid the bacon onto a plate. "Miracles are in short supply around here."

Mary caught the tone. "Oh boy. We're starting the day like that."

"I'm just saying," he replied, "the library's been called The Pleasantville Library for a hundred and six years. And now we're supposed to rename it after—what is she calling it? The Marjorie L. Davenport Center for Literacy and Learning?"

Mary sat down and reached for the toast. "It's her money, John. A million dollars. You've seen the roof. You've seen the basement. You've seen the… everything."

"That doesn't mean we should sell the name of the place," he said. "It's not a baseball stadium."

Mary buttered her toast with the calm of someone who had already had this argument twice in her head before breakfast. "I don't love the idea, but I don't hate it either. And I really don't think the town council is going to turn down that kind of money."

"They should," John muttered.

"They won't."

He sighed and sat across from her. "It's not right. The library belongs to the town. To everyone. Not to whoever has the biggest checkbook."

Mary took a sip of coffee. "You know what also belongs to the town? Mold. Cracked windows. A heating system from the Eisenhower administration."

"That's not the point."

"It's exactly the point."

They sat in a brief, familiar silence—the kind that comes from years of knowing exactly how far to push and when to let the air settle.

Mary glanced at the clock and jolted upright. "Oh! I have to go. I'm going to miss the 8:02."

John nodded. "I'll drive you if you want."

"No, no, I'll run. But—" She grabbed her bag, slinging it over her shoulder. "Can you pick up my book today? The new Stephen King? They emailed me yesterday that it's on hold."

"Sure," he said. "After I drop Emma off."

"Thank you." She leaned over and kissed him on the cheek. "And try not to start any library uprisings before lunch."

"I make no promises."

She laughed as she backed toward the door. "Just pick up the book. And maybe don't lecture poor Linda at the circulation desk about the sanctity of historical naming conventions."

"I don't lecture," John said.

"You absolutely lecture."

The door closed behind her, leaving John alone with the cooling bacon, the ticking clock, and the uneasy feeling that Pleasantville was about to change in ways he wasn't ready for.

CoPilot also redid the story from Mary's point of view.

Here's a version that shifts the center of gravity into Mary's interior world — her tempo, her morning urgency, her mix of practicality and mild exasperation. I kept the dialogue intact in spirit, but the emotional camera now sits on her shoulder, catching the little frictions and affections that shape her day.

Mary was already running late when she stepped into the kitchen, still fastening her earring. The smell of bacon hit her first — warm, familiar, grounding — and then John's hunched shoulders over the stove, which told her he was thinking about something he didn't want to be thinking about.

"You're up early," he said, not looking back. "Train running on time today?"

She made a sound around the earring clenched between her teeth. The clasp finally clicked. "Supposedly. But who knows. If it's not late, it's early, and if it's on time, it's a miracle."

He slid bacon onto a plate with the solemnity of a man delivering bad news. "Miracles are in short supply around here."

There it was. She could feel the conversation forming like a weather front.

"Oh boy," she said, dropping into her chair. "We're starting the day like that."

"I'm just saying," he began — which meant he was absolutely not just saying — "the library's been called The Pleasantville Library for a hundred and six years. And now we're supposed to rename it after—what is it? The Marjorie L. Davenport Center for Literacy and Learning?"

Mary buttered her toast with deliberate calm. She didn't love the new name either — it was long, fussy, and sounded like a place where you'd be scolded for breathing too loudly — but she also wasn't about to pretend the building wasn't falling apart.

"It's her money, John. A million dollars. You've seen the roof. You've seen the basement. You've seen the… everything."

"That doesn't mean we should sell the name of the place," he said. "It's not a baseball stadium."

She took a sip of coffee, letting the warmth settle her. "I don't love the idea, but I don't hate it either. And I really don't think the town council is going to turn down that kind of money."

"They should."

"They won't."

He sat down across from her, looking like a man bracing for a moral storm. She knew this posture well — the earnestness, the stubbornness, the way he felt the town's history like a personal inheritance.

"It's not right," he said. "The library belongs to the town. To everyone. Not to whoever has the biggest checkbook."

"You know what also belongs to the town?" she said gently. "Mold. Cracked windows. A heating system from the Eisenhower administration."

"That's not the point."

"It's exactly the point."

They fell into a silence that wasn't hostile — just familiar, like a well-worn path they'd walked before. She checked the clock and felt her stomach drop.

"Oh! I have to go. I'm going to miss the 8:02."

"I'll drive you if you want," he offered.

"No, no, I'll run." She grabbed her bag, slinging it over her shoulder. "But — can you pick up my book today? The new Stephen King? They emailed me yesterday that it's on hold."

"Sure," he said. "After I drop Emma off."

"Thank you." She leaned in and kissed his cheek, catching the faint smell of bacon and dish soap. "And try not to start any library uprisings before lunch."

"I make no promises."

She laughed as she backed toward the door. "Just pick up the book. And maybe don't lecture poor Linda at the circulation desk about the sanctity of historical naming conventions."

"I don't lecture," he said.

"You absolutely lecture."

She stepped out into the cold morning, pulling her coat tight as she hurried toward the station. Behind her, the house settled into its quiet. Ahead of her, the train tracks gleamed faintly in the early light. And somewhere in between — in that small, stubborn town she loved — the library's new name was already hanging in the air, whether anyone liked it or not.

Better. But, not knowing the context, I still don't see the point.

Is she about to jump in front of the 8:02?

AJ

Is theguardian.com a reliable source or does it fall into trash media? (I really don't know.)

What if the article was written by AI? haha

Is theguardian.com a reliable source or does it fall into trash media?

It has a heavy left wing bias but, like all UK newspapers, it has a legal obligation to get its facts right. So if it presents something as a fact without identifying the source, seek corroboration elsewhere.

AJ

Change of name cheshirewriter, or was your last account banned? 🤔

There's a rash of new authors and stories on SOL.

The stories contain mostly paragraphs containing single short sentences.

Or sentence fragments.

The subject matter often involves rebirth in a fantasy environment.

Where the protagonist is born to a noble.

And inherits superpowers.

Some are marked as AI-generated.

Others aren't.

AJ

So, what's the general consensus, is it merely false-positives, recognizing patterns in normal text along with AI-generated text duplicated the same patterns of writing. Or is it actually AI generated. As again, many of what I've seen seems to have been actually rewritten to ensure the text is natural and flowing, rather than merely duplicating patterns.

As so far, I've seen no similarity if many of the currently flagged AI stories. So once again, I'm utterly befuddled.

In short, if a living old-school human can't differentiate is, should we ALL assume that an AI text-duplication, pattern recognizing tool is better than humans?

Nope, still befuddled and betwixted. Where's that bitter Cocoa when I need some?

Actually, I really like Sci-FiTy1972's work, though her pseudonym could use little work (Personally, "Sci-Fi Tilly's" sounds better on the ear. Her works reads not only naturally and easily, it's about as 'old-school' as a new-age girl can get. ;)

Or, just spitballing here, how 'bout "1972SFTilly's"? Which, conversely, is why I prefer relying on my actual name, as what's more authentic than that, as strange as some of us are to begin with?

What makes you think Sci-FiTy1972 is female?

The protagonists are all complex male characters, which would make the 'author' almost certainly male too. I use the term 'author' reservedly because of the obvious AI-generated content.

AJ

Lazeez runs an AI dectector tool and will tag stories as AI generated even when the poster didn't.

While it's better than nothing, IMO it's short of 100% accurate, missing out quite a few cases.

AJ

To me using AI is like using a power tool.

Not yet.

An electric screwdriver should produce a result identical, or even better, than a human-powered screwdriver. AI-generated literature is still some way short of that. In the Sci-FiTy1972 story I'm reading, it's obvious the AI has no real understanding of abstract concepts.

AJ

it's obvious the AI has no real understanding of abstract concepts.

To be fair, neither do I....

Are you telling me you've never stripped the head of a screw with an electric screwdriver?

I've never actually used one. I've watched neighbours and various tradesmen use them and never seen them strip the head of a screw, but then I'd class them as reasonably expert.

AJ

IMO the composition of the screw is a factor too. Some metal are more malleable than others.

I imagine Dr Michael Peter Loucks has a lot of problems in that area. He prefers a soft screw to a hard screw.

AJ

I imagine Dr Michael Peter Loucks has a lot of problems in that area. He prefers a soft screw to a hard screw.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣