Forum: Author Hangout

Plagiarism?

Charro6 🚫

I have been reading the portal story by James Girvan. They are very similar to the Axeman story by Shaddoth.
He even referenced the Axeman characters in his story.

My question is.
When does a story idea become plagiarism?

Take for instance.
Orphan boy finds out that he has superpowers. He goes to special school where others student learn to use their special powers also. He makes friends, battles the bad guys, and becomes a hero.

There are many stories and movies with this theme. But most peoples first thought is a story by an English author.

Rumors abound that she has sued several people for plagiarism. So where does it begin.

Replies: Dominions Son Vincent Berg Sarkasmus Paladin_HGWT shinerdrinker Dicrostonyx bandeau_rouge

Dominions Son 🚫

@Charro6

When does a story idea become plagiarism?

Neither copyright, nor plagiarism cover abstract plot ideas. Both require copying the actual words of the original.

Vincent Berg 🚫
Updated:

@Charro6

You didn't show the corresponding sentence, so there's no way to tell. But, 'themes', 'motifs' or 'idioms' can't be copyrighted. Copyright only covers the text or visual images on the page (thus on a patent, the blueprint and the patent application).

So, "similar" is fine, the precise working is NOT!

That's why I'm so careful about reading anything in the same genre as what I'm currently writing in, as it's typical to read something, remember the particular way they said something, and then use it in your work, assuming you just came up with it on your own.

That's a case of 'unintentional copyright', as it's still a valid copyright violation, and since every single school teacher, school administrator and/or publisher has the tools to detect these single line or single phrase violations, your chances are being caught are high, and they can often ruin author's entire career, thus making everyone question ALL of their works.

It may seem an excessive safeguard, yet I've seen too many famous literary figures lose everything as a result of a minor slip-up.

However, if you never intend to publish, and only post on SOL, you may be safe, yet simply posting to a site is the equivalent of publishing regarding copyright law. So 'not being noticed yet is not a legal guarantee.

And in most cases, when there are rumors of someone being 'sued' for plagiarism, that usually means the copyright victim was satisfied with either a cash-payment or the other authors chaining the suspected lines without making a major issue of it.

However, if you never file a copyright (last I checked, which costs $57 per 'work' (57 in my case)), as long as you don't charge for your work (potentially taking money otherwise due the original author), you can't be penalized financially. They can still have the work banned, yet that's a much lessor penalty.

Copyright law can be tricky, which is why I've always advised ALL writers to at least READ the copyright statute themselves, so you're at least away of the potential risks.

Note: Yeah, what Charro6 said.

Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@Charro6

Take for instance.
Orphan boy finds out that he has superpowers. He goes to special school where others student learn to use their special powers also. He makes friends, battles the bad guys, and becomes a hero.

There are many stories and movies with this theme. But most peoples first thought is a story by an English author.

I've been sitting here for five minutes, trying to think of a single story other than Harry Potter where this theme applies.

I came up with nothing.

Replies: Vincent Berg Charro6 Charro6

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Sarkasmus

The Marvel Universe's Mutant Academy!

Replies: Sarkasmus

Sarkasmus 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Do you mean that Street Fighter style game that doesn't really have a story, or do you mean Professor X's school for "gifted children"?
In case of the latter, I'm sure there are orphans in that school, but the story is about the Professor gathering teenage mutants to shield them from the government.

Charro6 🚫

@Sarkasmus

Percy Jackson, the lightning thief

Replies: Sarkasmus

Sarkasmus 🚫

@Charro6

Okay, first of all, the dude isn't an orphan. He's being raised by his mother and later meets his (very much alive) father. And he's not going to some school where he learns how to control his powers... he's being sent to summer camp.

Charro6 🚫

@Sarkasmus

A few adaptations of King Arthur and Hercules.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@Charro6

I might be mistaken, however, I believe that Axeman is (at least partly) is a "Game Lit" story.

Are the Characters in both stories on SoL, also part of the Game?

I have read, and re-read Axeman several times. However, I have only played a few on-line games over the last three decades; so I don't recognize the Game.

Replies: akarge

akarge 🚫
Updated:

@Paladin_HGWT

It's more of a GENERIC game than a specific one. Game mechanics such as experience, stats, special titles or attributes, as well as being able to look all that up. This is not the way that real life works.

Replies: Paladin_HGWT Paladin_HGWT

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@akarge

It's more of a GENERIC game than a specific one.

Ah. I had thought that Axeman was based off an actual game. I have seen games that I thought it was based upon. It seems I was mistaken.

IMHO it would seem to be harder to establish a copywrite on such a story.

I will browse each story, to refine my opinion.

My initial thought is, similar to the movie (and graphic novel) Constantine; it would be difficult to accuse a person of plagiarism, since Constantine, Gabriel, Michael, etc. are biblical figures, and it would be difficult to legally prove that another is not using a "public domain" setting and characters.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫
Updated:

@akarge

After searching on Steam, there are games (or a series of games) called Axeman.

I played one of them during the shutdowns for Covid-19 in 2020.

I don't know if any of those games were an inspiration for Shaddoth...

It further complicates any claims of "plagerism"...

Edited to fix an important misspelling of the name of the game, and the story in question.

shinerdrinker 🚫

@Charro6

In my senior year of high school, there was a class clown in my English class. He was a nice enough guy, and his jokes were pretty funny.

We were tasked with writing an original short story that would be read out loud to the class. This was an advanced class, so there was not really anyone there who could not have done the work at least satisfactorily.

My class valedictorian was a nice enough girl. She was not popular, but she was not a loner, either. She was also a funny girl with a great sense of humor, and I think she had worked out an approval of the joke after reading her story out loud to the class.

When she finished reading it, he stood up and declared that every word in her story was plagiarised. He could prove it by producing the book from deep inside his backpack. With a stern face and serious attitude, he pulled out a Webster's dictionary.

The teacher laughed so loud, as did the rest of the class.

I was right there with them all on the floor, struggling to regain my breath. It was a masterful performance. Also, as per usual, her story was pretty great as well.

Sorry for the respite. I just had to retell a story from my youth that could fly into my brain while reading this chain.

--Shinerdrinker

Replies: awnlee jawking akarge

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@shinerdrinker

When she finished reading it, he stood up and declared that every word in her story was plagiarised.

A single word can be plagiarised if it is a new word or an innovative redefinition of an existing word. But strings of generic words, which would cover dictionary entries, cannot be plagiarised. So the joke was on your class :-(

ETA - despite what the article said, I think dictionary entries can be plagiarised. Creators of a new dictionary would get a substantial boost if they used the set of defined words from an existing dictionary, even if they didn't copy the definitions.

AJ

akarge 🚫

@shinerdrinker

Not a joke, but I had a similar english 101 class in college. Everyone had to write two short stories. (2 page max)

Pass them back and over one row. OK, then he calls out to people and has us start reading them out loud. I refused. A cute little girl had written the FILTHIEST rape fantasies (I hope they were fantasies) These would make many SOL readers nowadays blush, and this was clear back in the 70s.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@akarge

A cute little girl had written the FILTHIEST rape fantasies (I hope they were fantasies) These would make many SOL readers nowadays blush, and this was clear back in the 70s.

What a coincidence - I can think of a site where readers would like to read them.

AJ

Dicrostonyx 🚫

@Charro6

My question is.
When does a story idea become plagiarism?

Plagiarism is an academic standard in which you need to give credit for your ideas. It does not require direct copying, but as long as you tell your readers where the idea came from then you're fine.

Copyright is a legal standard defining who is allowed to use an original work and in what way(s). Copyright includes the right to not make copies. So if an author publishes a story and then later regrets it and decides that they don't ever want it republished, that's their right. Of course, any existing copies still exist.

Trademark (which I include for the sake of completeness since it's a similar concept) protects the origin or brand of a product. For example, not only is the name "Coca-cola" a trademark, so is the red can and white wavy line. If a competitor made a can that was technically different but similar enough that customers could be confused, then it violates trademark. Trademarks rarely apply to more than one industry.

Replies: Vincent Berg

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Dicrostonyx

If you're defining terms, then try reading a few definitions. "Plagiarism" is NOT an academic standard, it's a legal definition. Giving credit to the original author of a work is call "accreditation" or "proper attributing" the work.

So next time, don't just randomly invent arbitrary definitions for words, as that doesn't help anyone. And if you are intentionally plagiarizing someone whenever you give them credit for something, then you are most definitely in the wrong line of work!

Replies: DBActive Switch Blayde

DBActive 🚫

@Vincent Berg

plagiarism
Plagiarism is the act of taking a person's original work and presenting it as if it was one's own. Plagiarism is not illegal in the United States in most situations. Instead it is considered a violation of honor or ethics codes and can result in disciplinary action from a person's school or workplace. However, plagiarism can warrant legal action if it infringes upon the original author's copyright , patent , or trademark . Plagiarism can also result in a lawsuit if it breaches a contract with terms that only original work is acceptable.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/plagiarism

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

"Plagiarism" is NOT an academic standard, it's a legal definition.

It is not a legal definition. It is not illegal to plagiarize.

It comes up most often in the academic world, but it has also come up in the media and even speech writing.

Not illegal, unethical.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

It is not a legal definition. It is not illegal to plagiarize.

My take would be that it is a 'legal' definition, but not necessarily a definition of something that's illegal - plagiarism isn't illegal in the US but I can think of a few countries where it might be.

AJ

bandeau_rouge 🚫

@Charro6

look at the number of quasi superman stories we have on this site.

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Plagiarism?

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