Forum: Author Hangout

writing about tipping

PotomacBob 🚫

I read somewhere that the standard tip these days is 20 percent for a full-service meal. Full service meaning a wait person gives you a menu at the table, delivers water, comes to the table to take your order, delivers the food when it's ready, brings a check and accepts payment at the table.
These days, at many places, you have to place the order on a screen, and before you know what kind of service you might get, they thrust a choice of tips at you right there n the screen. A recent choice included tips of either 18, 20, 25 or 28 percent. Then the give you a little electronic gizmo so that when your food is ready, you go to a counter and pick it up yourself.
On the other hand, I note that restaurants are having difficulty filling positions. When I go into a restaurant, I generally have no idea what that particular restaurant is paying for help. I know that the minimum wage for waiters and waitresses is considerably less than the minimum wage for most workers, with the assumption being that they will make up the difference through tips. I've heard that, though they get paid less in wages, they get taxed on the assumption that they did make up the difference in tips - whether that is true in all cases or not.
Is tipping getting out of hand? Is anybody writing about it on SOL?

Replies: John Demille awnlee jawking DBActive Rodeodoc Justin Case

John Demille 🚫

@PotomacBob

Is anybody writing about it on SOL?

Not that I'm aware of.

Is tipping getting out of hand?

Yes. Indeed it is. At self serve restaurants, where you punch in your order and pick up your food yourself they ask you for tip. In places where they explicitly charge you a fee to use the service, like UberEats and Doordash, the drivers wouldn't pick up your order if you don't pay the maximum amount of tip when you place your order.

Tipping is becoming decoupled from its original purpose, which is to encourage better service. Now, in the case of food delivery via food delivery service, you don't get the service at all if you don't tip, regardless of your opinion of the service.

There are multiple reasons for this direction in tipping.

In AirBnB, they charge you cleaning services and they expect you to leave the place cleaner than you found it, otherwise they give you a bad review on the service.

They say power corrupts. In this case it's very true.

On AirBnB the service providers have the power to affect the clients ability to use the service and that power have corrupted them and their service.

In UberEats and Doordash's case, the power that the service gives the driver (the ability to see what tip there is) has corrupted the service too.

But that's not the only reason.

The biggest reason is demographics. I'm in my fifties. Our generation grew up while the population was still growing and the age of abundance hadn't kicked in with a vengeance yet. People had kids in reasonable numbers and those kids were expected to work. When I turned 14 I was expected by my parents and society at large to find a starter job, and I did. I bagged groceries for a full summer and the next I flipped burgers at wendy's and had a job ever since. All kids my age, and there were plenty of us, were expected to do so and the economic wheel turned as expected.

Now things have changed quite a bit since our youth.

People aren't having as many kids as before (in Canada the fertility rate has dropped to below 1). Capitalism worked well and people got richer and their kids, the fewer ones they're having, don't have to work like before. Nowadays, each kid usually relies on his or her parents for everything until after they graduate university. So the pool of cheap labour that our generation grew up with, didn't materialize for businesses running now.

Another reason is the shifting labour market. Girls making money online and (sex work and otherwise) there is plenty of money to be made online. Boys wasting their energy online too, playing games and living in their parents' basements. Parents who are brainwashed by modern psychology crap to not push their kids into the labour market.

There is a general shortage in labour, and the reasons are endless. My brother had to shut down a Shawarma shop he opened because he couldn't staff it reasonably. The qualified employees were mostly immigrants and those received payments from the government that they didn't want to risk, so he had to pay under the table in cash, otherwise, no employees. At the end he was paying $45 per hour per sandwich maker, money that he couldn't declare. I had to get a cleaning service for my mother who reached an age where she requires help. Incompetent cleaning 'Ladies' command $60 per hour!

So the pool of cheap labour is tiny compared to our days. This leads to a huge demand for the few workers that are willing to work. So, supply and demand rules dictate that those in demand can command higher wages, and they are, through tipping.

Expect things to get even worse as we age.

Replies: alohadave Paladin_HGWT

alohadave 🚫

@John Demille

Tipping is becoming decoupled from its original purpose, which is to encourage better service.

Tipping in the US started after the Civil War when poor blacks worked in menial jobs, like waiting tables. Diners resisted for years, but it caught on in the South, and spread to the rest of the country. Meanwhile restaurant owners realized that they could pay less for their staff if customers supplemented their pay. It's an end-run around the abolishment of slavery.

This is why restaurant minimum wage is coded in law at much less than standard minimum wage.

And the kicker is that if you ask tipped staff now if they'd rather get tips or straight pay, most of them will tell you they want tips, because they make more money.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@alohadave

This is why restaurant minimum wage is coded in law at much less than standard minimum wage.

The restaurant minimum wage isn't quite that simple.

The restaurant is supposed to track tips and if base wage + tips falls short of the standard minimum wage, the restaurant is legally required to make up the difference.

Of course, that is very difficult to enforce properly.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@John Demille

Parents who are brainwashed by modern psychology crap to not push their kids into the labour market.

I don't disagree with you. However, in many states in the USA, and Canadian Provinces, there are laws, and regulations that make difficult to employ teenagers; let alone younger kids.

I got my first newspaper route at age 10 (a weekly, aka 1 delivery a week). I had done weeding for neighbors at around $3.00 an hour in the mid 70's, which was probably generous, but it usually only took me an hour to clean the flower beds. I also picked strawberries, and other fruit for a couple of dollars per flat picked. None of those jobs would be legal for anyone younger than 16, and heavily regulated for anyone under 21.

Many of the jobs I worked, while going to high school or college, such as working in a deli, "construction" labor, yard work/landscaping, and other jobs are also prohibited, or strictly regulated. Friends bagged at a grocery store, worked as waiters or waitresses, or made deliveries using bicycles, etc. Most of those jobs are now Forbidden 🚫 to most teens.

Businesses owned (or managed) by immigrants or minorities often flout those laws and regulations. I have friends who are multi generation Americans, who say that government inspectors won't cite them for employing "family" members, where they would cite and fine a "White" owned business.

As a generalization, many immigrants, and some minorities have a stronger work ethic, and compel their kids to work (no "allowance"), than "White" Americans. While only my limited personal observations, LDS ("Mormons"), Amish, and several other religions, including Observant Jews, tend to have a similar work ethic, and compel their teenagers to work.

Replies: palamedes

palamedes 🚫

@Paladin_HGWT

Businesses owned (or managed) by immigrants or minorities often flout those laws and regulations. I have friends who are multi generation Americans, who say that government inspectors won't cite them for employing "family" members, where they would cite and fine a "White" owned business.

I can tell you this has nothing to do with immigrants or minorities. The laws governing family members working in the family business are very lax. Pretty much as long as you are meeting the educational requirements and the child health is not endangered then the government gives it a pass.

I am a white American and the things the government allowed legal as I was my Fathers Son.

Working 40-60+ hour work weeks plus school (PASS)
Running machinery (PASS)
working with hazardous chemicals (PASS)

Driving (Legal Michigan State issued drivers license at 10)
{just google it I had extra rules but I drove}
(PASS)
working long hours (PASS)
working with/around dangerous animals (PASS)

as for pay well I made $601.00 a year. That was the min. I needed to earn for the farm to get a full tax deduction as an employee.

This list can go on but I think you get the idea. Yes tv and movies show the shop owners working their kids but it is but a candle to the real world.

Now the rules that I must follow with the kids I employee (none are mine)

Kids below 16
During school 20 hour work weeks nothing past 9pm. 30 hours and 10 pm during summer.
no kids on property when chemicals are in use and for 12 hours (24 for pesticides) after use.
NO operating machinery
Wage - State law says $10.10 per hour I start at $12

Replies: Paladin_HGWT

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@palamedes

I mentioned these things because Washington state and Oregon have "strict" laws and regulations governing such things; even in family businesses. Albeit "family" businesses get some laxity.

People who I know who are classed as minorities are treated differently. Politicians make public statements that they use their power as government officials to apply laws and regulations Unequally! Of course, they claim they are seeking "equity" to "make up for past wrongs" or openly pander for votes...

There are cultural differences in tipping too. Russians tend not to tip at all, for instance. Germans and Dutch who frequent the USA will often tip for better service if they intend to patronize a restaurant again.

My Canadian friends who come down to Washington quite often, would tell this joke:

"How are Canadians and Kayaks alike?"

"Neither tip!"

(or "Neither tip very often.")

Many Canadians who visit the USA often, in particular for business, are more likely to tip.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@PotomacBob

I read somewhere that the standard tip these days is 20 percent for a full-service meal.

I presume you're looking through a USA-centric lens. I've never tipped 20%. I believe a few countries even ban tipping completely.

AJ

DBActive 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

It's a misconception that wait staff is paid less than the minimum wage. If the tipped income is not sufficient to equal the minimum wage (the general minimum) the employer has to pay the difference.

Some states have no distinction in the minimum between tipped and non-tipped employees: they are all paid the same wage, tips are a bonus.

Counter people at your local Starbucks are not tipped employees. They are paid the standard minimum.

Waitstaff at reasonably busy restaurants and bars, who are reasonably good at their jobs will make multiples of the minimum every week. If the place is cash heavy, much of that income will go unreported.
One think that you should know is that the Waitstaff is often expected to tip the bartenders based on what they take from the bar, even if the customerstiffs them. They aren't forced to do that, but they will wait a long time for their drinks if they don't.

If you don't want to tip at a counter service, don't. It won't make any difference in the service you receive. It will mean the employee makes less money, but they will still be paid at least the minimum wage.

Rodeodoc 🚫

@PotomacBob

Here in Canada most places have at least a $15 an hour minimum wage. The excuse for tipping used to be that the poor server was only getting $4 an hour and needed tips to survive. But nothing changed when their minimum went to $15. In fact, post Xovid the request for tips has increased. 20% used to be a decent tip now the ask can be up to 28. It's no wonder people aren't eating out any more. There's an IG video of a guy getting asked for a tip at the self serve checkout at a grocery store. Not sure that's true but everyone seems to have their hand out. $18 for a sandwich at Subway then they expect a 20% tip? Nope.

Justin Case 🚫

@PotomacBob

Tips are a "gratuity". That means GIFT.
It's your "thanks" for good service or a favor.

Tip according to the VALUE or the SERVICE that you feel you have received.

"Percentages" are a new construct.

Nobody "Deserves" a tip, no matter what the current social opinion is.

Like my stories and wanna "tip" me to show appreciation?
Wonderful! I'm grateful for it.
Like my services rendered and wanna "tip" me to show appreciation?
Wonderful! I'm grateful for it.

Don't wanna tip me?
Great! That's your choice as well.

And for the record... with the overinflated prices nowadays, few people have the money to eat a $15 meal and then pay another $5 to the dolt who handed it across the counter.
In fact, $15 is more money than most people make in an hour of work.

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Forum: Author Hangout

writing about tipping

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