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By children for children

JoeBobMack 🚫

I just ran across the Critical Drinker's series of youtube videos on "Why Modern Movies Suck," and especially the one entitled, "They're Written by Children." Fascinating comparisons of how things like emotional loss and command relationships are conveyed in early Star Trek movies as compared to more recent examples. I don't think I can communicate that in writing -- you have to see it. But, I was fascinated when he got to his reasons for "why" this is happening. I don't agree with all of them. For example, one was basically that making movies is expensive and you have to appeal to the widest possible audience. I don't think that's substantially more true today than it was in the 1990s or even the 1940s. But, he then goes on to say:

I've said before that a character is only ever as smart, capable, and resourceful as the person writing them. And, well, you don't need me to tell you that Hollywood creatives these days aren't exactly paragons of tough, stoic, confident self-reliance. They're the kind of people who consider mean tweets to be on par with mass murder. In fact most of them have lived the kind of safe, comfortable, sheltered lives that previous generations could only dream of, never experiencing anything even resembling hardship, adversity, or danger: the kind of stuff that actually builds character, self-confidence, life experience, and generally makes you a more interesting, capable person.

A commenter to that video adds this:

I think part of this ultimately comes down to the life experiences and history of the individuals actually writing the story. Since you mentioned Star Trek, let's look at Gene Roddenberry for example… this is a guy who flew 89 combat missions during WW2 and worked as a commercial pilot after the war. He later joined the LAPD and eventually got involved in the entertainment industry after becoming a liaison on shows like Dragnet. My point is that all of these life experiences fed into his ideas and inspirations when it came to Star Trek (as well as more traditional inspirations such as other works of fiction like John Carter of Mars and Tarzan).

Now compare this to people like Alex Kurtzman and Robert Orci who co-wrote both of the JJ Abrams-directed Star Trek movies. The two of them met in high school, and after university went straight into writing for syndicated television, which eventually led to progressively bigger and more high-profile gigs.

My reason for making this comparison is: what inspiration did the latter duo have to draw from when writing THEIR Star Trek? The answer is nothing except for previous Star Trek (and other sci-fi movies). That's why Star Trek into Darkness was such an inept, lacklustre rehash of Wrath of Khan, because Kurtzman and Orci remember watching that movie as kids, and have fond memories of it, but have nothing new or original to actually bring to the table.

In other words, "Modern movies suck because the people making them don't have anything worthwhile to say, and they don't have anything to say because they haven't really lived." Some of the commenters suggest that life experience can be gained vicariously, possibly by reading biographies, and I suppose that's true. But, I know in my own case, the lessons etched on my soul by experience may be illuminated and explicated by what I've read of the experiences of others, but they are the lessons I really know.

Anyway, it's a fascinating video, and I highly recommend the 15 minutes or so it takes to watch it.

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

Not only because the authors lack experience with reality, but they have to keep it simple, because their viewers also lack experience with reality.

(cf. the young "adults" who decided to take selfies while sitting on the third rail at a subway platform: https://nypost.com/2023/08/14/lollapalooza-concert-goers-violently-shocked-by-third-rail-while-taking-selfie-on-train-tracks/)

You see that here, as well, with people complaining about stories or aspects thereof that they "can't understand".

Mushroom 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Anyway, it's a fascinating video, and I highly recommend the 15 minutes or so it takes to watch it.

I have actually been watching his reviews and comments for well over 3 years now, and I agree with almost all that he says. Movies in the last several years have gotten "dumber", preferring to pander to their "select audience", and trying to indoctrinate the rest.

And he is correct, they are getting dumber. Where at one time movies were a fun escape, I have not been to a theater since the first of the new Star Wars movies came out, and I can't see myself ever going again. And I have caught some later on streaming and DVD, and most are absolute shite.

I might return, if they ever stop trying to rewrite classic stories to fit their own political beliefs, and absolutely destroying characters and stories because they have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

Case in point, I actually did sit down to try and watch that Willow series, and made it I think about 15 minutes in when I wanted to do one of his Tyrian clips. When one of the Strong Female Lesbian Characters turned to the other Strong Female Lesbian character and told her to "suck it up".

And at that use of WWII era slang jarringly shoved into a fantasy story involving monsters and magic I just had enough, turned away from D+, and had absolutely enough. And I realized that multiple layers of editing and writing and oversight let something so basic slip through at the start, and that the rest of it would likely only get worse.

It is not any one thing, it is everything combined and shoveled on top of each other that makes almost all films today completely unwatchable.

Go away now.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Mushroom

When one of the Strong Female Lesbian Characters turned to the other Strong Female Lesbian character and told her to "suck it up".

Look what they did with "Snow White." Can't have dwarfs anymore. Snow White can't be waiting for Prince Charming. She has to be a strong woman who takes charge.

But there are some good new movies. "Top Gun: Maverick" was really good. Great characters and action. "Oppenheimer" wasn't bad. Not new, but I'm having some friends over today to watch "42" (story about Jackie Robinson). Another good movie.

But I agree with what the guy said in the video. Although he's no better than his contemporaries. Did he really have to keep saying "fuck"?

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Look what they did with "Snow White." Can't have dwarfs anymore. Snow White can't be waiting for Prince Charming. She has to be a strong woman who takes charge.

And if they want to make a movie like that, fine. GO ahead and make your movie. But basing it on an already established character and changing it and the story to meet your demands is freaking lazy.

Hell, "Fifty Shades of Stockholm Syndrome" started as a Twilight fanfic. However, the author then turned it into something different and original and I got no problem with that.

And there are a lot of cases of that. They could well have taken a "Generic Storybook Character", given it "Generic Storybook Companions" and had it fight a "Generic Storybook Enemy" and filled it with all of the "Strong Independent Female Character" they wanted. Hell, one could damned near say that Fiona in "Shrek" was exactly that.

But to attempt to replace existing characters, that is freaking lazy as hell and guaranteed to piss off fans of the original, going all the way back to the Brothers Grimm version.

But I agree with what the guy said in the video. Although he's no better than his contemporaries. Did he really have to keep saying "fuck"?

What can I say, he's Scottish. And over time you can hear how he has really played up to that, his "script personality" is almost a caricature of a pub crawling football rowdy from Edinburgh. And I admit, I love how he closes almost every review he gives.

"Go away now!"

But also if one looks through his reviews, he loves a lot of movies also. Maverick was one of them, and even he admitted he was surprised at how good "No Way Home" was, especially when compared to the rest of Marvel Phase 4.

And the funny thing is, the entire Dwarfs Vs. Magical Creatures appears to have come up because of Peter Dinklage. Early on he approached the House of Mouse for a role in the movie, and they turned him down because they wanted to feature mostly a cast of unknowns for those roles.

And I can get that, because they already had two stars, it would not make for a great movie where a minor character steals the screen from them. But he then went all "Dwarves are bad and discrimination", so they went the opposite way and cast none. Which also pissed off the Dwarf acting community as they have already been accusing him of monopolizing most such roles that come along.

And many point to that as his largely being "blackballed" from Disney movies. He had already filmed scenes for the last Thor movie by then, and they all ended up on the cutting room floor. And he has not had many appearances since then. His biggest part upcoming seems to be his starring in a reboot of the Toxic Avenger movie.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Mushroom

"Fifty Shades of Stockholm Syndrome"

ROTFLMAO

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

What can I say, I absolutely detest stories like that and have absolutely no interest in either reading or watching them. BDSM has absolutely no appeal to me whatsoever.

However, interestingly enough a lot of gals absolutely adored the movie and book. That alone should be screaming to the Hollywood types that not even all women want "woke" stories all the freaking time but a variety. If "Fifty Shades of Physical and Emotional Abuse" was a woke story, absolutely nothing of the original would have remained.

And another thing that is now missing in modern Hollywood that irks me, the "RomCom". I admit, I am a guy and still love RomComs. Meg Ryan was awesome in a slew of them, as was Drew Barrymore a decade or so later. And I would rather pull out my old copy of Trevor Nunn's "Twelfth Night" or "His Girl Friday" long before I watch most of the crap Hollywood shovels on us today.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@Mushroom

What can I say, I absolutely detest stories like that and have absolutely no interest in either reading or watching them. BDSM has absolutely no appeal to me whatsoever.

I'm a fan of those kinds of stories and I still found that hilarious.

P.S. I've heard people into BDSM call the Fifty Shades franchise the fast food of BDSM.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@Dominions Son

I'm a fan of those kinds of stories and I still found that hilarious.

P.S. I've heard people into BDSM call the Fifty Shades franchise the fast food of BDSM.

Well, I will admit I played into a bit in one of my stories. Where I actually took a page from "The Golden Child", where Eddie Murphy finds the main female character tied up to a wall in a classic "Bondage" style scene, but with toilet paper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETkJs0Mhnmo

My only "bondage" scenes were similar, with the restraints barely even fastened, so it was entirely consensual as the female could escape them at any time. Entirely symbolic and in no way forced.

And if somebody is into that, whatever floats your boat I say. I even enjoyed reading a web comic "Sunstone", and found it fascinating even though I have no interest in that culture. But the character interactions were still compelling to me.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Mushroom

But basing it on an already established character and changing it and the story to meet your demands is freaking lazy.

In this case I don't believe it was lazy. It was woke.

The son of the director of the original film said his father and Walt Disney are turning over in their graves.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@Switch Blayde

In this case I don't believe it was lazy. It was woke.

There is nothing wrong necessarily with being "woke", but they can do so in an original story with original characters and not forcing the changes into an already established story. One could almost describe Shrek as being "woke" in that aspect, but nobody objected because it was an original story and not changing an existing one.

And the same could be said for "Brave", as Merida was an original character and even though based on archetypes she also broke a lot of them. But what was a fresh change in 2012 is now copy-paste blandly common.

Heck, even the Princess storyline in the last Wreck-it-Ralph" was freaking hilarious, as it played the hell out of all of the Disney Princesses in a fun way that did not feel forced.

But there is a problem with the latest trend of making ALL of their characters and stories "woke". Doing it on occasion can be fine, but now it is done in every single freaking movie to the point it has become generic and boring. And completely ignores the "romantic" angle that many girls (and boys) would actually like to see. A strong male coming to their rescue and saving them. Or making great sacrifices and risks to show their love for them.

Hell, a lot of people could read through many of my stories and think I was "woke" in many of the things I portray. However, it is also obvious that is not the case at all and I am simply trying to show real interactions. Even in one series having the main character get his ass beat and stomped senseless after getting sucker punched and the gal tried to protect him. That was mostly an example of my "trope breaking", as just because he was a Marine it did not mean he was an expert in personal combat and would be taking on three other Marines single handedly. Especially as they were all grunts, and he was just a computer tech.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Mushroom

There is nothing wrong necessarily with being "woke", but they can do so in an original story with original characters and not forcing the changes into an already established story.

True, but "woke" can be a problem even in an original story.

The problem with some of the recent remakes, is not just the character changes it's that they want to make strong female characters but have no real idea how to do it.

They end up with a man with tits and/or making the female lead look strong by belittling the men around her and making them look like weak, incompetent baffoons.

An original story of and in itself won't prevent that kind of "strong" female lead.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel 🚫

@Dominions Son

they want to make strong female characters but have no real idea how to do it.

Back then (so about 30 - 40 years ago) they started some TV series with strong female characters, but in later seasons and episodes they all finally drifted into the traditional female role: needing a male hero to save their ass.

If they really want strong female MCs, they just should look into Weber's Honorverse.
Or here on SOL in Todd_0172's Tales from the Shack and Saint Clair stories.

HM.

John Demille 🚫

@Mushroom

There is nothing wrong necessarily with being "woke",

I really really don't want to pull the thread into politics.

But, 'Woke' is basically Communism with an American/Western flavour.

Its current aim is to upend western civilization as it stands and transform it into outright communism.

Since that's the aim, anything targeted by 'Woke' is meant for destruction. The woke don't care if a movie is good, especially franchises, as long as it destroys whatever image it's meant to destroy.

It's against family and against strong men.

Once you start thinking of Woke as Communism, things happening around you start making perfect sense.

Pixy 🚫

@Mushroom

Hell, "Fifty Shades of Stockholm Syndrome" started as a Twilight fanfic. However, the author then turned it into something different and original and I got no problem with that.

The irony being that Star Wars itself, started out as an early fan-fic adaption of Akira Kurosawa's 'The hidden Fortress'.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@Pixy

The irony being that Star Wars itself, started out as an early fan-fic adaption of Akira Kurosawa's 'The hidden Fortress'.

That and a dozen other inspirations.

In fact, originally Lucas wanted to make a modern adaptation of Flash Gordon. But Dino De Laurentis already held the rights to that so he had to make his own story.

And it took bits and pieces from many sources. Much was the Jidaigeki style of Japanese period pieces like Hidden Fortress, and Jidageki is the source of the word "Jedi". Also the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials as well as another called "The Fighting Devil Dogs" (where the main villain wears an outfit almost exactly like Darth Vader).

As well as Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces", Asimov's Foundation series for the Empire, Doc Smith, and everything else from comic books to Lord of The Rings.

And the sad thing is, all of his movies were original. Even his prequels, which reversed the main story and had the large and powerful Jedi fighting a weak an almost powerless evil trying to take over. Very unlike the last three movies, which were essentially the first three remade with only a few changes.

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Mushroom

Go away now.

Funny! Love it!

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Mushroom

I have actually been watching his reviews and comments for well over 3 years now

I'm catching up on them. I'm looking forward to part 2 of "They Hate Men." What I really hope he does is put forward some examples of modern movies that he thinks portray men in a more favorable light. I don't watch all that many movies, and really never have -- I like reading better -- but of those I have seen, "Pearl Harbor" and "Ford v. Ferrari" come to mind.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@JoeBobMack

What I really hope he does is put forward some examples of modern movies that he thinks portray men in a more favorable light.

That is not really his issue at all. But what he and many of us hate is when there is no real reason for it.

Take The Hunger Games. Snow was a man and a douche, that was how he was written. And it was an original character created for that series.

His issue is primarily when it is done to gaslight an already established character or work. Making Hulk seem weak so his Superior Female Cousin could be better at everything.

And yes, the She-Hulk series had me get mad also, as she was preaching to Bruce how horrible it is to be a female, and he would never understand how tough it is for her.

Bitch, in a very poignant moment in one of his earlier movies he talked about how he was so depressed he put a gun in his mouth and tried to blow his brains out. But he could not even do that because when he pulled the trigger he transformed and the Hulk spit the bullet out!

So unless your life was so horrible you had tried to kill yourself, don't dare try to say your life as a comfortable high price Lawyer was harder than Bruce Banner's.

Or the sad, detached, pessimistic and homicidal Luke Skywalker that we had in the last three movies. Who only hid on his island and drank his blue milk.

And I agree when he brings up points like that. One can make detestable men that nobody will complain about. But for heaven's sake, do it in an original work and don't change characters that already existed into what you want them to become.

Or give more "equal time" and treat both the same. He brought up a good point in the review of "Thor: Love and Thunder". In one part he had his clothes ripped off and it was hilarious to all involved. OK, fine, what if that had been a female character? Would it have been as funny then, or offensive?

If a female had her mind taken over by an entity out of time then had sex with a male character without her knowledge or consent, would that have been a form of rape and wrong? Yet, nobody questions when the opposite happens in Wonder Woman 1984.

But mostly, I agree that almost the entire Hollywood Industry seems to have forgotten how to tell original and entertaining stories. That is why I laughed at the series of Disney bombs this year, as an animated Spider-Man movie with a black character trounced all of the Marvel and Disney movies this year. And when Mermaid released, I laughed at the idea it was bombing because of "racism" and pointing out it would likely be beat by a movie with a black star that was made for a fraction of the budget.

And sure enough, it was. Across the Spider-verse was original, well made, and highly entertaining. Not yet another of the endless rehashes and live action remakes of properties from decades ago.

I wonder how long it will be until Disney gives us an animated version of Jungle Book, based on the two different live action versions they have shat out. And an animated version of The Lion King, based on the live action one. Hey, how about a Live Action retelling of "Frozen"? They are already giving us a live action Moana after all.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I just ran across the Critical Drinker's series of youtube videos on "Why Modern Movies Suck," and especially the one entitled, "They're Written by Children."

As one long-established film critic observed, while Hollywood can rake it in by churning out endless sequels in the children's comic universes, why should they risk trying to produce something that's intelligent and thought-provoking.

AJ

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom 🚫

@awnlee jawking

As one long-established film critic observed, while Hollywood can rake it in by churning out endless sequels in the children's comic universes, why should they risk trying to produce something that's intelligent and thought-provoking.

As many others pointed out, cost.

For what they waste churning out endless high budget crap, they could give us a dozen or more lower budget movies that ultimately return more than those others do.

To give an idea, "Ghost" in 1990 was not some big budget movie, it cost only a bit over $20 million to make. Yet it brought in over $500 million. The same year saw "Home Alone", that cost $18 million and brought in over $475 million. Even what many consider a flop "Dick Tracey" cost only $45 million and brought in over $160 million.

Hollywood used to balance the major tentpole movies with a slew of smaller budget films. And the occasional "sleeper hit" often times made as much if not more with a higher ROI.

But now, every movie seems to be like it has to be a blockbuster. And realistically there can only be one or two of those a year. And with theater run times shrinking and no more home video sales they largely have to recoup their expense in a month or it is a flop.

DBActive 🚫

@JoeBobMack

The belief that there are no "good" movies being made is crazy. The belief that everything is just a blockbuster, sequel or rehash of of an old film is crazy.
There are hundreds of American movies released every year and dozens of foreign films imported. They range from high budget to shot on a shoestring, awful to great, rehashes to originals. There is more ability for anyone see them now than ever before.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@DBActive

Oh sure, if you count foreign and indi films. :)

As for Hollywood, if it's not a remake of an older movie, it was a book, or a play.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

As for Hollywood, if it's not a remake of an older movie, it was a book, or a play.

How is that different than most literature, plays or movies of the past? Writers in all media recycle earlier work and put their own spin on it. That goes back as we know in literature.

What is the Odyssey - just a sequel to the Illiad. Dozens of Greek plays are retelling stories from those two works. Shakespeare never wrote a play based upon a new idea - he just told the stories better than others.

I would ask you to think of any films you think are great: I'd bet they were remakes, or based upon books or plays.

As to "Hollywood" - it hasn't really existed since the demise of the studio system in the 1950s. Then they had to pump out tons of low budget movies to keep the actors under contract working.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@DBActive

I would ask you to think of any films you think are great:

[empty set]

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫

@Dominions Son

Never liked any movies?

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@DBActive

Never liked any movies?

I'd say there's a difference between a movie being enjoyable and being great. In my opinion, greatness in a movie requires more than being fun to watch.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫

@Dominions Son

So, what does it require? Did none fit the criteria?

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

I'm looking forward to Disney's next blockbuster:

FDR, The War Years.

Lupita Nyong'o plays FDR, who dances with the Bolshoi when not busy being President.

You'll laugh, you'll cry, and you'll cheer when she defeats rival ballet troup
Adolph and the Aryans in a Bollywood-style dance-off.

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