Forum: Author Hangout

Is the movie "Big" – statutory rape

Switch Blayde 🚫

Everyone loves Big… we thought. The 1988 supernatural comedy about a boy (David Moscow) whose wish to grow up magically lands him inside the body of his older self (Tom Hanks) has drawn some ridicule in recent years, with critics bringing to light the possibly problematic relationship that ensues between Josh and an adult woman (Elizabeth Perkins).

While never explicit, it's implied the pair have sex in the film, leading to questions over whether the film romanticizes what could be considered a form of child molestation or statutory rape. Then again, maybe folks are overthinking it. This is a childhood fantasy, after all, so one might expect a 12-year-old boy's vision of being a grown-up to involve some sort of sexual exploits.

Moscow, who made his film debut as young Josh, admitted to Yahoo Entertainment during a 2018 interview that he doesn't think Big (released 35 years ago Saturday) could be made the same way today.

"I think people would jump on it," Moscow, now 48, told us. "If they did make it, the press, before it even came out, would be ripping it to shreds. The religious fanatics would be out there talking about it. People would be demonstrating. I don't think you could."

Replies: irvmull Sarkasmus DBActive ystokes ystokes John Demille awnlee jawking Radagast ystokes Dicrostonyx

irvmull 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Funny thing about it is, 35 years ago there were arguably MORE religious fanatics than in 2023.

There would however, be plenty of outrage.
Because that's the only thing most people are capable of nowdays.

Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

"I think people would jump on it," Moscow, now 48, told us. "If they did make it, the press, before it even came out, would be ripping it to shreds. The religious fanatics would be out there talking about it. People would be demonstrating. I don't think you could."

I don't think so. Because we all remember that massive outrage that didn't happen when "Wonder Woman 1984" came out two years ago, where she has sex with her boyfriend while he possessed some random dude's body.

Or when everyone thought it was perfectly fine for the... what? 300 Year old Vampire in the twilight movies to groom a 17-year-old, because he looks young.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Sarkasmus

"Wonder Woman 1984" came out two years ago, where she has sex with her boyfriend while he possessed some random dude's body.

That's not the same. That happened in "Meet Joe Black" too. Death took the body of a mortal and had sex with the girl. But they were all adults.

The difference is, the boy in "Big" is 12 years old. That isn't even allowed on SOL.

Replies: Sarkasmus Dominions Son Mushroom

Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Well, my comment was about the expected outrage that I don't see coming.

Yes, it was the same with "Meet Joe Black"... and that movie sparked just the same outrage as my example with Wonder Woman. None at all.

Regarding Big...

He wasn't a twelve-year-old. Physically, he was a fully grown 32-year-old. He was only mentally twelve. So, to answer that question, a psychologist would have to determine whether or not the guy would've been capable to give informed consent. Just like with any other grown up that suffers from a mental disorder.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The difference is, the boy in "Big" is 12 years old. That isn't even allowed on SOL.

But he looks like an adult when the sex happens. That's actually within the rules for SOL.

If you make an ancient creature (300 year old vampire) that looks like a prepubescent child and put it in a sexual situation Lazeez considers that a violation of the rule.

However the reverse situation, a character that is technically young but looks/acts like an adult is fine. I've got a situation like that in one of my stories and I cleared it with Lazeez before posting that part of the story.

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Dominions Son

If you make an ancient creature (300 year old vampire) that looks like a prepubescent child and put it in a sexual situation Lazeez considers that a violation of the rule.

Only if you actually physically describe the 300 year old vampire, with special emphasis on her body is it a violation of the rule. Otherwise, you CAN put the 300 year old vampire into a sexual situation so long as it's not blatantly describing the sexual acts. I know - I did - and I specifically asked Laz about doing it in advance.

Mushroom 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The difference is, the boy in "Big" is 12 years old. That isn't even allowed on SOL.

I do seem to remember a story that was somewhat similar in a way. Where a boy ended up in a coma and woke up years later. So once again, the body is older than the mind is.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Mushroom

I do seem to remember a story that was somewhat similar in a way.

Someone said earlier that it is allowed on SOL.

Replies: ystokes

ystokes 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Someone said earlier that it is allowed on SOL.

Only if it was written before a certain date. Otherwise there are stories with 9-10 year olds.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@ystokes

Only if it was written before a certain date. Otherwise there are stories with 9-10 year olds.

Young mind in physically adult body does not violate the age rule.

Replies: ystokes

ystokes 🚫

@Dominions Son

I was replying to the age rule on SOL.

Replies: Sarkasmus

Sarkasmus 🚫
Updated:

@ystokes

As far as I understood it, so did Dominions Son.

The age rule on SOL is not about age, but about pedophelia. As in, the description of prepubescent bodies.

If you want to publish a story about a 10yo character possessing the body of a fully grown adult, it's no longer pedophelia and therefore Okay with SOL.

If you, however, want to publish a story about a 300yo vampire that is for all eternity stuck in the body of a 10yo, that would still be pedophelia and therefore undoubtedly get declined when submitted to the site.

AFAIK, he 14 years of age are just an artificial number taken from the new law.

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Sarkasmus

If you, however, want to publish a story about a 300yo vampire that is for all eternity stuck in the body of a 10yo, that would still be pedophelia and therefore undoubtedly get declined

Not if you do not harp over endless details of the 10 year old body that the 300 year old vampire is in.

And I'm speaking from experience, as my Legacy of a Legend HAS a 300 year old vampire (Babette, from Skyrim) in it.

DBActive 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The religious fanatics would be out there talking about it. People would be demonstrating. I don't think you could."

In reality, it wouldn't be "religious fanatics," but progressives who would be outraged. E en if it were religious fanatics, Hollywood wouldn't be interested in their opinions.

ystokes 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Some argue that since a girl as young as 12 can get pregnant marriage MUST remain open to them for the sake of those children.

Replies: DBActive PotomacBob

DBActive 🚫

@ystokes

It's ironic that the left believes that a 12 year-old is competent to decide to take puberty blockers or hormone treatments, but no one under 18 is competent to consent to marriage.

PotomacBob 🚫

@ystokes

ystokes
6/3/2023, 8:51:03 PM

@Switch Blayde

Some argue that since a girl as young as 12 can get pregnant marriage MUST remain open to them for the sake of those children.

Didn't hear the whole story, but heard snippets of a story on the radio about a doctor in (Indiana?) who performed an abortion on a 10-year-old girl.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@PotomacBob

@ystokes

ystokes
6/3/2023, 8:51:03 PM

@Switch Blayde

Some argue that since a girl as young as 12 can get pregnant marriage MUST remain open to them for the sake of those children.

Didn't hear the whole story, but heard snippets of a story on the radio about a doctor in (Indiana?) who performed an abortion on a 10-year-old girl.

Yeah, for the US, onset of puberty in a girl at age 9 would be considered normal.

From what I've read, the record for youngest mother giving live birth is something like 5 years 9 months.

This happened in one of the South American countries (don't remember which one).

The doctors who performed the c-section estimated based on the condition of her internal genitalia that she hit puberty at some point between 6 and 18 months of age.

Replies: DBActive

DBActive 🚫

@Dominions Son

Lina Marcela Medina de Jurado (Spanish pronunciation: [ˈlina meˈðina]; born 23 September 1933)[1] is a Peruvian woman who became the youngest confirmed mother in history when she gave birth on 14 May 1939, aged five years, seven months, and 21 days.[1][2] Based on the medical assessments of her pregnancy, she was less than five years old when she became pregnant, which was possibly due to precocious puberty.[3]

She is still living. Her son died at 40

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@DBActive

she was less than five years old when she became pregnant, which was possibly due to precocious puberty.

AFIK a prepubescent girl can't get pregnant. Attaching "possibly" to that statement is absurd.

Replies: helmut_meukel

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Dominions Son

she was less than five years old when she became pregnant, which was possibly due to precocious puberty.

AFIK a prepubescent girl can't get pregnant. Attaching "possibly" to that statement is absurd.

DS, probably not absurd, just a typo.
Replace the 'y' with an 'e' and the sentence makes sense:
she was less than five years old when she became pregnant, which was possible due to precocious puberty.

HM.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@helmut_meukel

Possible is not less absurd than probably. There is nothing else it could be.

Replies: Michael Loucks

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Dominions Son

Possible is not less absurd than probably. There is nothing else it could be.

In the referenced sentence, 'possible' means 'could occur'.

ystokes 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I remember years ago watching Blazing Saddles on TV and they cut out the sound of the cowboys farting but left in all the n-words. Now on cable they could say anything.

John Demille 🚫

@Switch Blayde

(David Moscow) whose wish to grow up magically lands him inside the body of his older self (Tom Hanks) has drawn some ridicule in recent years, with critics bringing to light the possibly problematic relationship that ensues between Josh and an adult woman (Elizabeth Perkins).

The relationship in the movie cannot be considered statutory rape. For it to be rape somebody must use their superior position (more power, older, etc) to take advantage of a minor. The woman in the movie was not going after a kid. She thought he was a man (if I recall correctly); she didn't know that he had the mind of a child inside.

No skewed power dynamic means no rape.

There is criticism and outrage because people like to do that. They get social browny points from taking a moral high ground even when not warranted. Social incentives and all. Projecting current moral views on the past and repainting past events/attitudes as bad is a low hanging fruit, and morally mediocre people can use to elevate themselves. For example blaming people in the 1700s for being slave owners when slavery was a normal thing for thousands of years. It's all about agendas.

The west's current social environment is FUBAR. On one hand a grown woman cannot consent to kissing after one drink, and on the other hand an eight year old can consent to puberty blockers and a fourteen year-old can consent to have her tits chopped off.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

If someone has sex with the bronze of Margaret Thatcher in Grantham, is that statue Tory rape?

AJ

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@awnlee jawking

statue Tory rape

Rape involves both parties to the act being human beings. If a statue is considered human by the legal authorities then the age of the statue might be relevant. In some states the offended party to the rape has to be below a certain age, and the offending participant has to be more than a certain number of years older. This all varies by state. Since the statue of Margaret Thatcher is in Britain, I am not sure what the relevant law would be. The chances are pretty good that both Thatcher and any statue of her would be too old to be involved with the law. I doubt that any statue could be a member of the Tory party. Perhaps if a person who belongs to the Tory party participated in the rape it might be a Tory rape but if the other party were a statue I doubt the authorities in Britain would consider it statue tory rape.

Radagast 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Already covered on SOL in Marsh Alien's: https://storiesonline.net/s/50906/a-stitch-in-time
Kid goes to sleep after wishing he could skip growing up. He wakes up, its several years later, his mom has died, his first kiss hates him and the alternative 'him' that lived those years has been banging his teacher and the librarian along with the Prom Queen. He's a virgin kid in his head, with the body of a jock and a bunch of adult women wanting to continue their relationships with him.

ystokes 🚫

@Switch Blayde

There was always the movie Pretty Baby with Brook Shields.

Replies: Michael Loucks

Michael Loucks 🚫
Updated:

@ystokes

There was always the movie Pretty Baby with Brook Shields.

Standards of the past were different…

Simonetta Stefanelli who played Apollonia, the girl Michael married in Sicily in The Godfather, was only sixteen when she filmed the topless scene during the Spring of 1971. She was born November 30, 1954.

Olivia d'Abo was completely naked at fourteen in Bolero.

In the 1968 movie Romeo and Juliet, Olivia Hussey was only sixteen and she had a brief topless scene.

I'm not sure you could release a movie in the US with those scenes, let alone Pretty Baby.

Replies: ystokes

ystokes 🚫

@Michael Loucks

I can't remember which pay network it was on but I remember seeing Pretty Baby uncut on TV.

I saw a documentary on Blazing Saddles where Mel Brooks said the farting scene was the hardest to get past the studio.

Replies: Michael Loucks

Michael Loucks 🚫
Updated:

@ystokes

I can't remember which pay network it was on but I remember seeing Pretty Baby uncut on TV.

Ditto for uncut versions The Godfather and Romeo & Juliet. And they're still available to buy or stream. That said, some day, some prosecutor is likely to come for them. Sigh.

With regard to Mel Brooks, trying to release any of those movies today, or even make them, would be met with a storm of protests.

Huge swaths of the population no longer have a sense of humor anymore.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Michael Loucks

Huge swaths of the population no longer have a sense of humor anymore.

Are they really offended or do they simply enjoy making a fuss?

Replies: Michael Loucks ystokes madnige

Michael Loucks 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Are they really offended or do they simply enjoy making a fuss?

As argued in several of my stories, all we can know about someone is their words and actions. It's literally impossible to know what they really believe. And in the end, it plays out the same either way. Whether it's heartfelt, theatrics, or seen as advantageous, is mostly irrelevant to those on the receiving end of that (apparent) lack of humor.

ystokes 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Are they really offended or do they simply enjoy making a fuss?

The woman that got that young black poet's book banned in FL. admits she never even read the full book.

Replies: DBActive

DBActive 🚫

@ystokes

That's strange. As far as I know, not a single book has been banned in the US for many, many decades.

madnige 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Are they really offended or do they simply enjoy making a fuss?

They enjoy being offended; it's a subset of not being happy unless they are complaining. If they had their way, they'd still be complaining about this newfangled atl-atl and knapped flint spearheads.

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@madnige

this newfangled atl-atl

That's an ASSAULT spear thrower, designed for WAR, and no one should have one but the military! Even you use it for hunting, it's got a high capacity quiver!

Dicrostonyx 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I think Moscow is incorrect. You often see people using this "you couldn't make it today" argument, but their "proof" is just that they haven't seen any recent films that do whatever it is they're talking about. It doesn't mean that those films don't exist.

The reality is that there's lots of stuff you can do today that you couldn't have done even ten years ago let alone thirty-five. Plus, the existence of streaming services, YouTube, and Kickstarter means that if a studio doesn't want to give you $50 million for your "unmakeable" film, you can do it on a shoestring budget and sell it privately.

Mel Brooks has commented that interviewers will often say "you couldn't make that today" of his films, primarily Blazing Saddles (1974). His response is "You couldn't make it then!" Various studio execs tried to cancel the project multiple times and when it was first showed to a test audience of studio executives it fell flat; it was only after Brooks convinced them to show it to the "regular" employees that WB agreed to actually release the film.

* * *

As for the original question, you've got two ways to look at it. In a fantasy situation where the world knows about the magical ability to turn children into adults and where magic is coded into the law, this situation would presumably be covered and there would not be any debate, but the author would have to decide what those rules are.

As the film actually progressed, though, it wouldn't be statutory rape. There could be an argument for diminished capacity, but you'd likely have to prove that first. That would be difficult because while Josh underwent a very steep learning curve and had some issues, the reality is that he was functioning as an independent adult. He got a job, arranged an apartment, paid his bills, managed to feed himself, etc.

Mind of a child or not, he didn't need a full time carer so it's unlikely any court would declare him mentally incompetent and without that having been established first, there would be no case against Susan for taking advantage of a person lacking the ability to consent.

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Forum: Author Hangout

Is the movie "Big" – statutory rape

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