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Effect of Movies on Novel Writing

JoeBobMack 🚫

I watched a movie recently in which a daughter tells her parents and fiancé that she has, in secret, been pursuing a new direction for her life. The parents disapprove, not least because it will end the engagement. The father threatens to disown her and tells the wife they are leaving. There is a moment when the wife hesitates, the husband snaps for her to come on, but then on the way out, she looks back over her shoulder with a look of, possibly, approval, or at least ambivalence, on her face. Later, the mother encounters another character who convinces her of the need to support her daughter, and they set out together to do so.

Here's the thing -- the visual aspects of the mother's ambivalence about denouncing the daughter worked (at least for me), but they would be very hard to "show" in a novel. Clearly, what I wrote above is "telling." I mean, "She looked back with an expression of ambivalence on her face," would be telling, not showing, and it seems far less effective that what was accomplished by the actress in this movie. I suppose it would be possible to describe facial expression (position of eyebrows, how widely the eyelids were open, lip position, etc.) in enough detail that someone knowledgeable about expression interpretation could glean the idea of ambivalence or maybe approval, but how many readers could do that, or would want to? The viewer had to observe and interpret, but I suspect most were able to do so, and did it quickly and easily.

In a novel, it would seem to me that the mother's possible openness would be better conveyed in some other manner, but I wonder how often contemporary authors, especially those of us who are amateurs, fall into the "visual" trap (if that's what it is) because we have watched so many stories told through the medium of video.

As another example, I read a fair number of indie books where it's just one action sequence after another, with characters running hither and thither, doing this, that, and the other. And I wonder how much of that is influenced by movies where lots of action and special effects can often cover a pretty serious lack of believable, relatable characters or action that flows from the setting and plot.

I have read some advice from experienced authors about "writing like it was a movie," but, I wonder. How much has our exposure to visual media influenced writing styles, possibly to the detriment of written stories?

Pixy 🚫
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

but they would be very hard to "show" in a novel. Clearly, what I wrote above is "telling." I mean, "She looked back with an expression of ambivalence on her face," would be telling, not showing, and it seems far less effective that what was accomplished by the actress in this movie

I am probably misunderstanding the point you are trying to make. I wouldn't say that I agree with your statement. 'Show, don't tell' is really a statement in relation to film, as you have no such means in type.

"She looked back with an expression of ambivalence on her face..." Is how you would 'show' (as you put it) it in type. 'Show don't tell' is applicable when a person goes (says) "I am looking back in ambivalence" in the film. Which is just horrible...

Edit: The last sentence would be applicable/understandable if you have descriptive subtitles on if you are blind.

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack 🚫

@Pixy

'Show, don't tell' is really a statement in relation to film, as you have no such means in type.

For realz? I could have sworn this was a common exhortation aimed at writers. For example, don't tell the reader that Jim is kind. Rather, include one or more examples of Jim doing a kind thing.

The importance of this technique depends on the significance of Jim being kind to the story. If, for example, Jim's kindness is going to be the deciding factor at an important plot point, then multiple early examples seems a good use of words. The same might be true if an unkind act by Jim is going to be important. On the other hand, if Jim's kindness is just one of several reasons why Sue likes him, then maybe the author can let Sue just say that -- which would be "telling" that Jim is kind, but "showing" that Sue judges him to be kind.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I could have sworn this was a common exhortation aimed at writers

It is. It's probably the advice given the most (and maybe the least understood). It was the feedback I got from a traditional publisher when I submitted my first novel.

Pixy 🚫

@JoeBobMack

I have read some advice from experienced authors about "writing like it was a movie," but, I wonder. How much has our exposure to visual media influenced writing styles, possibly to the detriment of written stories?

I take that to mean "Don't have long paragraphs of exposition. Keep the story fast paced with lots of descriptive action and keep the speech to a minimum. If they are in a jungle, you don't need to name every plant surrounding them, how many animals are in the vicinity, the PH of the soil, the feel of the bark, the taste of the soil etc, etc. Just keep the details to what's applicable, ie, 'They are in a jungle' and let the reader furnish out the minute details."

I would suggest being descriptive of things that don't exist in the real world, which would enable your mental image to be shared with the reader. For instance, you don't need to explain to a reader how many wheels a car has, or that it has a steering wheel, or that an elephant has a trunk and big ears (unless the elephant lost its trunk to a crocodile attack or something and it was pertinent to the story plot). They already know that. However a futuristic spaceship, well, that would need explaining in greater detail.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Pixy

a futuristic spaceship, well, that would need explaining in greater detail

It looked like it was an Imperial Star Destroyer, to my great surprise!

Or:

It made me wonder about the builders of that spaceship. It looked just like a United Federation of Planets destroyer, straight out of Star Trek!

Replies:   Pixy  madnige
Pixy 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

That won't work if the reader hasn't seen either of those, or the story is in a Universe/world that isn't in that Universe. You wouldn't write a story in/about the Buck Rogers Universe and say a craft looks like a Klingon War-bird would you?

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Pixy

the Buck Rogers Universe and say a craft looks like a Klingon War-bird would you?

Only if it looked like it. Just like in the Honorverse, most of the capital ships looked like dumb bells. Although one of the Buck Rogers ships actually DID have a passing resemblance to a War-Bird, while another looked like a Romulan battleship, and some of the smaller fighter ships look like the Terran Starfury or the Narn fighter from Babylon 5. I think courtesy of playing way too many space ship fighting games, I'm WAY too familiar with how so many space ships look a lot like another. Except the Vorlons - those are funky.

And it could be worse - you could say the spaceship looked like a penis with Peyronies, like in Flesh Gordon.

Replies:   Pixy
Pixy 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

You missed entirely the point I was making. When writing/reading a novel/story you don't write/read that something looks like something out of an entirely different IP.

In a film, something may have a similarity that the watcher can construe (rightly or wrongly) shares with something in another film (parodies aside), but writers don't write that. For instance, Dan Brown doesn't describe a character as 'being like Jack Reacher', because that's two separate IP's.

madnige 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

The best space-ship description I remember is from John Varley's The Ophiuchi Hotline, where one character (who has a spaceship modelled on pre-space magazine cover picture) says of ship aesthetics,

But deep-space ships still look like a hat rack fucking a Christmas tree.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Pixy

If they are in a jungle, you don't need to name every plant surrounding them, how many animals are in the vicinity

But you do need to describe enough of the local flora/fauna to make it clear that they are in a jungle, and not a temperate, or sub-arctic evergreen forest.

I am personally of the opinion that, even where world building is not needed, the scenery needs to be sufficiently described so that a reader can tell where a given scene is happening.

No, that doesn't mean detailed descriptions of individual trees, but the overall scenery should be described in a way that makes clear what kind of environment the scene is taking place in.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@Pixy

'They are in a jungle' and let the reader furnish out the minute details."

It behooves a writer to be aware of what kind of jungle it is. Panamanian Jungle has significant differences from a Jungle on New Guinea, or Brazil, or the Congo. "Tripple Canopy" jungle tends to have very little vegetation at ground level, because little if any sunlight penetrates.

Most people tend to think of (all) "jungles" being just like in a Hollywood movie, hip deep in water, and having to hack through with a machete every step.

For some stories you could just go with typical Hollywood tropes, I suppose. However, if at least some of your readers are aware of the reality of the location...

Misconceptions are common! During WWII some high ranking US Army Military Intelligence (and other) Officers were "Shocked!" that North Africa was Not a "Jungle!" It is arid, but not all desert either. During the winter of 1942-43 US Army personnel were astounded by the frequency of Rain in the Mountains of Tunisia, and even occasional Snow!

Deserts are different. The Sahara has significant differences from the "Empty Quarter" of Saudi Arabia, or the Gobi, or the Mexican State of Chihuahua, or the "high desert" of Eastern Oregon. Most deserts have sand, or at least "sandy" soil; but not all deserts have cacti!

Before you describe a thing you write about, it is important that You Know enough about how it is in your story before you write about it. It is a good idea to maintain some notes about locations, less you inadvertently create inconsistencies.

helmut_meukel 🚫

@Paladin_HGWT

Most deserts have sand, or at least "sandy" soil

You are describing ergs, those cover only about 20% of all desert areas.

A hamada (Arabic: حمادة, ḥammāda) is a type of desert landscape consisting of high, largely barren, hard rocky plateaus, where most of the sand has been removed by deflation. The majority of the Sahara is in fact hamada. Other examples are Negev desert in Israel and the Tinrhert plateau in Algeria.
Hamadas are produced by the wind removing the fine products of weathering, leaving behind a landscape of gravel, boulders and bare rock.
Hamada is related to desert pavement (known variously as reg, serir, gibber or saï), which occurs as stony plains or depressions covered with gravels or boulders.

HM.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@helmut_meukel

You are describing ergs, those cover only about 20% of all desert areas.

A hamada (Arabic: حمادة, ḥammāda) is a type of desert landscape consisting of high, largely barren, hard rocky plateaus, where most of the sand has been removed by deflation.

And then there is Antarctica.

https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/stories/nasa-knows/what-is-antarctica-k4.html

Antarctica is a desert. It does not rain or snow a lot there. When it snows, the snow does not melt and builds up over many years to make large, thick sheets of ice, called ice sheets. Antarctica is made up of lots of ice in the form of glaciers, ice shelves and icebergs.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Paladin_HGWT

Most deserts have sand, or at least "sandy" soil

The Phoenix area desert doesn't have sandy soil. The dirt is baked. Try digging into it.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Great questions.
Wish I knew the answers.

richardshagrin 🚫
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

Your just deserts have sand, your just desserts have sugar.

"People also ask
Is it just desserts or deserts?

Despite its pronunciation, just deserts, with one s, is the proper spelling for the phrase meaning "the punishment that one deserves." The phrase is even older than dessert, using an older noun version of desert meaning "deserved reward or punishment," which is spelled like the arid land, but pronounced like the sweet ...

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@richardshagrin

"Just deserts" - 50 SOL stories
"Just desserts" - 109 SOL stories

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

"Just desserts" - 109 SOL stories

Do they have the "food" story code?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Do they have the "food" story code?

No idea, but 541 SOL stories have an exact match with "for desert". ;-)

AJ

Justin Case 🚫

@JoeBobMack

You have to DESCRIBE the things that are not spoken.
Looks, facial ticks, smirks, smiles, laughs, chuckles, rude gestures, body movements, etc...

Even movie scripts have directorial notes and instructions to the actors.

Replies:   LupusDei
LupusDei 🚫
Updated:

@Justin Case

I think the problem of the OP is, should those descriptions be impartial descriptions of facts, or could be written down as narrator's interpretation of the emotional or mental state expressed by those gestures.

I personally would prefer the later, and would, by most part do it that way in my (hypothetical) writing. Not stressing too much about it being "telling." Especially because I suspect there could be cultural barriers for direct interpretation of, undoubtedly questionable descriptions of subtle and complex nuances of facial or body language. Especially when accompanied by words obviously not intended to be interpreted in their nominal meaning (what happens very frequently in the language I speak, and culture I'm part of).

Exceptions could be, if the narrator wants to obfuscate, or conveys doubt about what it could mean.

Replies:   Paladin_HGWT
Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@LupusDei

should those descriptions be impartial descriptions of facts, or could be written down as narrator's interpretation of the emotional or mental state expressed by those gestures.

Exceptions could be, if the narrator wants to obfuscate, or conveys doubt about what it could mean.

I have done both in my writing. More often I choose to have the character (or less often the narrator) provide their "interpretation" of non-verbal communication. Sometimes I intend such things to be uncertain, or up to interpretation.

Do whatever you think works best for your story. Era differences and/or cultural differences are very good reasons for explaining, or at least hinting what a gesture (etc.) may mean. Ambiguity may sometimes be a plot point.

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