Forum: Author Hangout

Group Conversations

JoeBobMack 🚫

How do you handle group conversations? My WIP has become something of an ensemble story, and situations where a large group needs to discuss something are common. I have begun to consider ways to avoid such events, but there are times it just seems like what needs to be in the story. So, any good tips? It's especially hard when several characters need to weigh in on a single point. Can end up looking like:

"I hadn't thought about that," Abby said.
"It could make the transition more difficult," Carol said.
Jim nodded and added, "Not to mention the expense."

And so on and so forth. You get the idea. How have you handled group conversations. What are some good techniques?

Replies: Dominions Son PotomacBob Switch Blayde Paladin_HGWT richardshagrin BarBar

Dominions Son 🚫

@JoeBobMack

And so on and so forth. You get the idea. How have you handled group conversations. What are some good techniques?

One I've used I call baton passing.

In the dialog, one character either directs a question to or makes a comment about another character by name. That character then responds and directs a question or comment at a third character.

Mom with 4 kids comes home from work finds a mess in the kitchen. All 4 kids are in the living room watching TV.

Mom storms back into the living room.

"Alright, who made the mess in the kitchen?"

Abby looks up. "Wasn't me, I've been studying all afternoon. I bet Mark did it."

"I haven't been in the kitchen. Ask Sara."

"Wasn't me either. Matt was the last one in the kitchen."

Another technique I've used could be called the board meeting, because that's the type of situation where I've used it.

This requires that the group has a leader directing the conversation. It breaks down into a series of two party conversations controlled by the leader. It works similar to the baton passing idea, except that there is one lead character that controls the baton. The baton always comes back to the lead character before getting passed to the next person.

Leader speaks, directs a question or comment to A.

Leader and A go back and forth.

Leader makes final response to A and directs a question or comment to B.

PotomacBob 🚫

@JoeBobMack

My WIP has become something of an ensemble story

What's an ensemble story? thanks for opening this topic - I was encountering the same difficulty with group conversations.

Replies: Dicrostonyx JoeBobMack

Dicrostonyx 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

What's an ensemble story?

The term comes from theatre & film. Most traditional works had one or two POV characters and a large support cast; an ensemble cast is a production with several distinct, named characters all with separate goals and stories.

An example would be how early MCU films like Iron Man or Thor were all about the central character, there was a bit of character development about characters important to them, and everyone else was just a name. Compare to the Avengers films where you have half a dozen to a dozen characters who don't necessarily get along with each other and have different goals, but have to work together for one big event.

The term isn't commonly used in written fiction, but it refers to a story which either has multiple POV characters which the narration switches between or one with a more outside narrator who describes multiple characters at the same time. You could also use the term to refer to a collection of separate, shorter stories which all weave together into a larger narrative. Some serials work this way.

The important point about ensembles, whether acted or in fiction, is that each member of the team needs to be introduced separately, have a well-defined character and voice, and must be important to the overall story even when their individual goals conflict. If one character's goals mean that they don't need to be involved in the events of the story, then including them is an unnecessary complication.

So the problem facing the OP isn't just how to handle large group conversations, but how to do so in a way that displays and respects the individual characters involved. This isn't just a conversation between 6 people, it's a conversation between 6 characters that the reader is already familiar with. You can't just jump from sentence 1 to sentence 2, you need to retain the individual voices of the characters.

If done well, this kind of thing can make a story great, but if not done well you can destroy a lot of the readers' good will. Returning to the MCU example, consider how Jane Foster goes from a smart, proactive character in the first Thor film to a damsel in distress in the second. The change in agency for her character led to Portman cancelling her contract, requiring Marvel to use archive footage for her appearance in Endgame.

The point being that an ensemble doesn't have to be a certain size, but each character in an ensemble piece must be distinct and treated fairly. This can be very difficult to balance.

JoeBobMack 🚫

@PotomacBob

What's an ensemble story?

An ensemble story has a group of characters of roughly equal importance rather than a single protagonist. See this article. They are often used when the author is telling a big story. Examples I've seen suggested include George R.R. Martin's Game of Thrones and C.S. Lewis's The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. (Although Heinlein did tell the story of the Moon's rebellion from Earth in first person, and not a particularly long book!)

In my case, as a rank amateur, I stumbled into the situation. The first book in my series has a main protagonist -- the guy who is sent back in time by a goddess to shape the entry of magic into the world. But, part of that mission is to gather a team. So, by the end of that book (which I wrote from a first person point of view), he's already gathered three more major characters, and their experiences, beliefs, and decisions are important to the story. So, the second book went to 3rd person, usually tied closely to the character that's most important for the scene. And, since I hate the thought of leaving a series unfinished, I'm still writing, and still working out the final shape of magic and the society that will emerge. It's sort of turning into a 1632 series (Eric Flint). I'm having fun, but whether and when it will result in something I'm comfortable posting. Well, that's a whole 'nother story!

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

"I hadn't thought about that," Abby said.

"It could make the transition more difficult," Carol said.

Jim nodded and added, "Not to mention the expense."

First, sometimes you're simply stuck with many dialogue tags for clarity when it's not obvious who's speaking. The reader doesn't really mind.

Sometimes you can leave out a dialogue tag if it's not important for the reader to know who said something, only that one of the characters said something. That's common in group discussions, especially when the group is responding to the leader of the conversation.

Finally, you can use action instead of dialogue tags to indicate who is speaking. For example:

"I hadn't thought about that," Abby said.

"It could make the transition more difficult," Carol said.

Jim nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

I simply took out the "and added". Or you could get rid of Carol's dialogue tag with an action as well, as in:

"I hadn't thought about that," Abby said.

Carol rubbed her chin. "Hmm, it could make the transition more difficult."

Jim nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

Or even something like:

"I hadn't thought about that," Abby said.

"Hmm, it could make the transition more difficult."

Jim looked at Carol and nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

You don't know Carol said it until Jim looks at her.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

You don't know Carol said it until Jim looks at her.

You could mix the baton passing idea into it.

"I hadn't thought about that, what do you think Carol?" Abby said.

"Hmm, it could make the transition more difficult."

Jim nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

The reader knows up front who the middle speaker is because she was introduced by the first speaker.

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

"I hadn't thought about that," Abby said.

Carol rubbed her chin. "Hmm, it could make the transition more difficult."

Jim nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

Given the number of authors who write an action sentence then an untagged piece of dialogue by a different speaker, I don't think that's clear enough.

I came across an example very similar recently

Carol rubbed her chin. "Hmm, it could make the transition more difficult."

Jim nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

The words "Not to mention the expense." were said by the Carol equivalent. I had to read more then work backwards to figure it out. Okay, it's poor writing but who's to know yours isn't too?

AJ

Replies: Keet Switch Blayde

Keet 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Carol rubbed her chin. "Hmm, it could make the transition more difficult."

Jim nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

The words "Not to mention the expense." were said by the Carol equivalent. I had to read more then work backwards to figure it out. Okay, it's poor writing but who's to know yours isn't too?

That's confusing. Since the "Not to mention the expense" part is on the same line and in the same paragraph as "Jim nodded" I would read that as Jim saying it. If it was in a new paragraph after "Jim nodded" I would read it as a continuation from Carla.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

It's a common mistake by some SOL authors.

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

It's a common mistake by some SOL authors.

That's no reason to have to adjust one's writing. We should write correctly. The reader should assume we are writing it correctly. If an author doesn't, then the reader must go back to figure it out (for that author). If it's troublesome to do that, stop reading that author.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Now what about an unknowledgeable reader? One who doesn't know the rules.

The more they read stories written correctly, the more they will learn. That's why it's important for them to read traditionally published novels. And it's why it's important for us authors to make sure we do it correctly.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

The words "Not to mention the expense." were said by the Carol equivalent. I had to read more then work backwards to figure it out.

You shouldn't have.

New paragraph = New speaker. (Unless the preceding paragraph doesn't have an ending quote.) Them's the rules. That should be clear to the reader. That's why we have rules.

Replies: awnlee jawking awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

That should be clear to the reader. That's why we have rules

Not much use if other authors don't know them, let alone the readers.

If you make assumptions about the knowledge of your readers, is that any better than assuming they understand any unexplained acronyms you care to throw into your stories?

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

If you make assumptions about the knowledge of your readers

I assume my readers are knowledgable.

"Showing" requires the reader to have a higher reading comprehension level than "telling." When I started using the showing technique, I found myself also telling what I showed because I didn't trust the reader to get it. I don't do that anymore. If the reader doesn't get it, they're not my target audience.

I'm not disparaging those other readers. We all have different reading levels. I lower the vocabulary level I use because I believe reading should be fun and not a chore (not that I have a great vocabulary myself so maybe that's why I feel that way). But I won't write poorly because the reader is accustomed to it.

For me, the story is paramount. I put my heart and soul into trying to make it perfect. I studied the craft of writing fiction and use those techniques. I'm not going to adjust my novel for the quirks of SOL readers. I know that sounds awful on an SOL Forum, but I'll give you an example.

I like short chapters, as a reader and writer. I've been influenced by thriller authors. But SOL readers prefer long chapters. Probably because they can only read so many per day. But I write the novel/story as if they have the whole thing in front of them, so when they get to the end of a short chapter they can simply start the next. Or wait until the next day if they prefer (one of the benefits of short chapters). Their choice. And the chapters are posted as short chapters even if I'm posting the story a chapter a week. If that upsets the reader, he can wait until the whole novel is posted or buy the novel or not read it or put up with the short chapters.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I like short chapters, as a reader and writer.

Even before I found SOL, in Dead Tree, as a reader I preferred somewhat longer chapters. But then I am not a fan of thrillers. I tend more towards Far Future Science Fiction, High Fantasy, and other genres where a fair bit of world building is required and total novel lengths average quite a bit higher.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

I preferred somewhat longer chapters. But then I am not a fan of thrillers.

My writing is influenced by thrillers. My current WIP is not a thriller but still has short chapters. Maybe it's because I'm a slow reader and hate stopping in the middle of a chapter.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Maybe it's because I'm a slow reader

I tend to find myself having to force myself to slow down so I don't miss things.

and hate stopping in the middle of a chapter.

I've never had a problem stopping in the middle of a chapter, or for dead tree, even the middle of a page.

Of course, I have occasionally had a problem with just stopping with particular stories, but for me that's never been about being in the middle of a chapter. When I get in that state, hitting the end of a chapter doesn't help. :)

Neither of us is wrong, we just have different preferences.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

I'm reading a Jack Reacher novel and just finished a chapter. The only reason the chapter ended was to get you to turn the page. The chapter ends with:

Then he saw headlights on the service road.

and the next chapter begins with:

The headlights were dim and yellow, which meant it was an old vehicle, and they were…

No need to start a new chapter. No POV change. No time or place change. Not the end of a scene. Actually right in the middle of a scene. The only reason for the change is to end with a suspenseful moment (and maybe to keep the chapter short).

It's not for everyone, but works for me.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

But I won't write poorly because the reader is accustomed to it.

I don't consider putting in an extra 'Carol said', lowering the required reading age from 18+ to 11+ (which I understand is pretty much the average in the US and UK for those no longer in full-time education) to be poor writing.

You're pitching your stories above Prince Harry's reading age ;-)

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I don't consider putting in an extra 'Carol said', lowering the required reading age

But dialogue without tags flows so much better. "Said" doesn't really disappear. So if I want the reader to really get into the dialogue exchange, I try to find ways to do that.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

New paragraph = New speaker. (Unless the preceding paragraph doesn't have an ending quote.)

Actually that's incomplete. A new speaker mandates a new paragraph. A new paragraph does not mandate a new speaker.

I consider the example below to be wrong:

Carol rubbed her chin. "Hmm, it could make the transition more difficult.

Jim nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

Replies: Dominions Son Switch Blayde

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I consider the example below to be wrong:

Why is it wrong?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

IMO, the dropped quote to indicate continuing speech is only valid when what immediately follows is more of the speech.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

IMO, the dropped quote to indicate continuing speech is only valid when what immediately follows is more of the speech.

Agreed. I missed the dropped quote in your example. Which was the point of my response. Your original comment on that should have been explicit about what was wrong.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

New paragraph = New speaker. (Unless the preceding paragraph doesn't have an ending quote.)

I was replying to SB's oversimplistic observation above. Should each forum post have to completely quote all the relevant preceding posts?

You could try the 'Threaded View' option.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I was replying to SB's oversimplistic observation above. Should each forum post have to completely quote all the relevant preceding posts?

But it's not the dropped quote by itself that makes your example wrong.

The dropped quote in general is easy to miss on a conscious level, and you said nothing about why it was wrong or why SB's observation was "oversimplistic".

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I consider the example below to be wrong:

Carol rubbed her chin. "Hmm, it could make the transition more difficult.

Jim nodded. "Not to mention the expense."

That is incorrect. There's a missing end quote in Carol's dialogue.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

"I hadn't thought about that," Abby said.

"It could make the transition more difficult," Carol said.

Jim nodded and added, "Not to mention the expense."

I determine if WHO said something is more important. Or if WHAT is said is more important at that moment in the story. This applies in my stories if it is a couple of friends relaxing, a meeting in a staff room, a group herding cattle, or soldiers in the midst of combat.

If WHO is most important, then I start the sentence/paragraph with the character:

Seargent Major Smith said, "NCO Meeting in my office in ten minutes. Fall Out."

Staff Sergeant Johnson said, "No can do Sergeant Major. Captain Klink ordered every swinging Richard in Alpha Company must be present for remedial PT in fifteen minutes. We had ten men fall out during the morning run."

"What a goat rope!" Someone in the rear ranks muttered loud enough to be heard.

I think it is important that the Reader knows who is saying the dialog. When it's just two characters you don't always need the character's name first, it may be presumed (and confirmed at the end of the sentence or paragraph). With multiple characters it is usually better to identify the character before they speak. However, sometimes for impact/story reasons, such as someone interrupting, or an Exclamation, I may choose to ID the character after what they said.

In high stress situations, such as combat, I am more prone to having dialog first, and character second, occasionally unidentified to the Reader (I will maintain notes telling me Who said something, so I know what is going on. I may not care if the reader completely understands, or may intend them to be confused in the chaos of combat. I still need to know what is going on.)

An example (slightly altered for simplicity) from my story:

Sergeant Major Hernandez was hit, and slumped over. Corporal Cruz grabbed him, and shoved him towards Jimenez to treat his wounds; Cruz charged the machinegun and began firing.

Colonel Diaz yelled, "We are being overrun on the left! Sergeant Major Hernandez you must keep firing until A Company gets here!"

As the enemy kept coming despite the machinegun fire, Colonel Diaz spoke into the radio, ordering, "Captain Ruiz you must bring up A Company immediately! We are being overrun!"

"Sir! General Obrador is demanding a situation report!" Sergeant Maldanado shouted.

Colonel Diaz grabbed Lieutenant Fernandez by the shoulder, pointed at the low stone wall, and said, "Get your men over there and Hold at All Costs or we are Dead!"

"Sir! Sir! General Obrador is insisting--"

A round impacted the command vehicle between the distraught sergeant and Colonel Diaz, who shouted, "I am leading my Battalion, I have no time for that fat Pendejo!"

As he moved out of the field of fire, Colonel Diaz saw an enemy dart from behind one of the stalled trucks, and shot the foe with his M-4; Diaz shouted, "Sergeant Major direct your fire to Six-o-clock, we are being flanked!"

As he stepped back seeking cover, Colonel Diaz noticed the Sergeant Major laying on the ground, being treated by a medic; Diaz said, "Who the hell is on the gun?"

"I am!" called Corporal Cruz.

IMHO the more characters in a scene, Main and Secondary characters should be identified before they speak. As should a character, if it is useful to know Who they are before they something. In my combat example, if he was going to say something "Medical" I would ID the Medic first, as it would seem odd being said by an infantry soldier.

If it is Information I want the Reader to know, but it's just a 'spear carrier' I would likely have the dialog first: "They're breaking through on our right too!" said Xyz. Or if I want a feeling of chaos I might have the name after, or not at all.

Try to view it from the perspective of your Reader.

richardshagrin 🚫

@JoeBobMack

You may say die a log, but why would want a log to die?

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@richardshagrin

You may say die a log, but why would want a log to die?

Technically, a log is already dead.

BarBar 🚫

@JoeBobMack

There may be times when you don't need to specify who said what.

eg: Suddenly everyone was talking at once. "I'm hungry" "Someone turn on the TV." "Let's get pizza." "We should go to the mall." "I hate pizza."

Carol stood up and yelled, "Quiet!"

Everyone stopped talking at looked at her. "We're not going to get anywhere, if you talk over the top of each other. We should have a vote about what to do."

There were a lot of nods and comments but everyone agreed to have a vote.

etc

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@BarBar

Suddenly everyone was talking at once. "I'm hungry" "Someone turn on the TV." "Let's get pizza." "We should go to the mall." "I hate pizza."

Carol stood up and yelled, "Quiet!"

Everyone stopped talking at looked at her. "We're not going to get anywhere, if you talk over the top of each other. We should have a vote about what to do."

Excellent example of rule exception - new speakers not mandating new paragraphs,and new paragraphs not mandating new speakers.

AJ

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