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Westerns - A Dying Breed?

JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

In response to a post I put on here, someone sent me an email with information on an author publishing through the big ebook site who had written books that referenced steam power. Very considerate and much appreciated!

Then I got to looking at the author. Started writing in 2016 (at the age of 66 as a way to keep his brain in gear after cancer treatment) and now has 88 books, all Westerns, and, despite the fact that he refers to it as a "dying genre" every single one has over 1,000 reviews (with ratings in the 4.6 range), and his most recent are running 5,000 - 7,000 reviews.

I've read one, so far, and I'd call it very good pulp fiction. Nice plot, action, some romance. Not a lot in the way of descriptions and not much character development. The emotions are conveyed through dialog and it is "on the nose" -- the characters seem to understand not only themselves but others completely and accurately. Which is bizarre when I think about it, but it does give a little emotional depth to the story without requiring a lot of thought by the reader.

Anyway, I'm just blown away. I had no idea westerns were that popular. And I'm flabbergasted at someone who seems to be able to regularly churn out a pretty well put together novel every two to three weeks for over five years!

Anyway, I was curious as to the thoughts of this group on:

-- Westerns as a genre
-- productivity as an author, especially for pulp fiction
-- anything else this sparks for you!

Paladin_HGWT ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

Quick post from my phone.

More than a decade ago Gene Hackman, the actor, wrote several really good Western novels shortly after he retired from acting.

The first one has something I have never seen in a Western novel before. The main character, a boy (young man) in his late teens was out hunting when he encounters trouble. He is armed with only a .22 caliber rimfire rifle. His foes are attacking other innocent targets, so the MC is able to use stealth, terrain, and surprise to achieve believable results.

The story is set in the late 1880's or early 1890's, so .22 rimfire rifles did exist.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Paladin_HGWT

The story is set in the late 1880's or early 1890's, so .22 rimfire rifles did exist.

The statement about .22 rimfire rifles not existing in the 1880s and 1890s is wrong.

https://www.yourconroenews.com/neighborhood/moco/sports/article/A-history-lesson-of-the-timeless-rimfire-22-15516076.php

The .22 Short was the first of the .22 rimfire cartridges and is the oldest American commercial self-contained metallic cartridge. It was introduced in 1857 for the Smith & Wesson First Model revolver and intended for serious self-defense.

It was loaded with a 29 grain bullet and 4 grains of fine black powder. After 1887 it was available in smokeless powder. In 1927 Remington came out with a non-corrosive primer (Kleanbore). The high velocity shorts were good for small game up to a maximum of 50 yards in a rifle.

Then along came the .22 long, it was first seen in 1871 for revolvers and shortly thereafter Remington and Stevens produced rifles in that caliber. Today, the .22 Long ammunition is still being produced by CCI and Winchester, but it is thought by many that there is not much need for it as the short or the long rifle will cover the market and some say it has outlived its usefulness.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

Um - since Paladin said they DID exist, your whole post was simply pointless.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

Um - since Paladin said they DID exist, your whole post was simply pointless.

Oops.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

The wokerati have decreed that the cowboys and Indians variant is racist and must be cancelled. Did your author write any cowboys and Indians stories or are they all cowboys and more cowboys?

AJ

helmut_meukel ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

The wokerati have decreed that the cowboys and Indians variant is racist and must be cancelled.

The real problem when writing stories set in the "Western" environment is you have a problem with the mindset of the people back when. So if you accurately describe a situation and how the people act, talk and react, this scene will be seen as 'racist'.

Kraken avoids this in his Robledo Mountain series by setting up the MC as transported back in time and creating an alternate history by his actions. (Cooperation and cohabitation of people from very different backgrounds, something never happened in a larger scale in our history).

HM.

JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@helmut_meukel

The real problem when writing stories set in the "Western" environment is you have a problem with the mindset of the people back when.

This author seems to dance the line with putting modern mindsets in his characters, but I haven't found it offputting yet.

JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@helmut_meukel

The real problem when writing stories set in the "Western" environment is you have a problem with the mindset of the people back when.

This author seems to dance the line with putting modern mindsets in his characters, but I haven't found it offputting yet.

Justin Case ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@helmut_meukel

If that is true, then a LOT of people are going to have sand in their vaginas over my writing.

I usually write as historically accurate as possible, using real life stories as the basis for actions and happenings.

I write what I know, and try to avoid the vapid fluff that has become entertainment and "news" of late.

My latest "book" (and it will be for sale in the future) follows real life on the southern border and tells of actual events through the eyes of my character.

It is a "modern western" if you prefer. With all the trappings and culture that goes with.

Nothing in my Tommy Gunn series of books will ever be "high fantasy", and I refuse to avoid telling of the many problems facing people in "flyover land" just to pacify those who choose to deny reality.

I also won't pussyfoot around the very real dangers and illegal activities that occur DAILY down there, especially not just to please people who have never even been there.

So they can "cancel" me all they want.

What you see is what you get, 24/7. The PC crowd be damned.

I have faith that reality and actual events will be more interesting to the readers.

Not really sure those who would cry even read, just gripe about what they heard about someone else reading.

Replies:   Paladin_HGWT
Paladin_HGWT ๐Ÿšซ

@Justin Case

If that is true, then a LOT of people are going to have sand in their vaginas over my writing.
I usually write as historically accurate as possible, using real life stories as the basis for actions and happenings.

I refuse to avoid telling of the many problems facing people in "glyover land" just to pacify those who choose to deny reality.
I also won't pussyfoot around the very real dangers and illegal activities that occur DAILY down there, especially not just to please people who have never even been there.

So they can "cancel" me all they want.
What you see is what you get, 24/7. The PC crowd be damned.

I wanted to write a story about events in the 21st century, in particular the military activities of members of the USA (and Allied/"Coalition") armed forces, as well as the "Spoos" intelligence, para-military, and other "Shadow Warriors" who have performed their duties in Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and the Pacific... Constraints currently prevent me from writing about actual experiences of those I served alongside (2 deployments as an Infantry NCO, and 2 deployments with USSOCOM totaling a bit more than 5 years out of more than two decades of service). So, I am writing a story of "modern warfare" with Science-Fiction/Fantasy elements in a fictional story to tell much of what I want people to learn a little about.

I had considered several locations, in the Pacific/Oceana, and elsewhere, including India, or China. For various reasons, mostly geography, I chose Mexico. In particular the Barranca del Cobre (Copper Canyon), the Mexican 'Grand Canyon' in the Sierra Madre Occidental Mts. of southwestern Chihuahua state, of Mexico. Research revealed that the nearest town/small city is Cuauhtemoc; for a decade (c.2006-2015 aprox.) there were more murders in and around the town (per capita) than anywhere else in Mexico. Numerous mass graves have also been discovered there. The Mexican state of Chihuahua is between two major Cartels. The Los Zetas to the east, and the Sinaloa cartel to the west. The border city of Ciudad Juarez and the interstate freeway south to the capital city of Chihuahua is an (unstable) "Borderline" between the cartels. Cuauhtemoc is roughly forty miles west of the city of Chihuahua, and some 25 miles NNE of the Barranca del Cobre. There was a severe problem of corruption of the law enforcement in and around the town municipal, state, and federal.

For my story to develop. For the invaders to be able to establish a viable "beachhead" and actually pose a threat, they had to have time and not be immediately crushed. They had to face enough opposition to realize they needed at least sufficient (if not overwhelming) Force to achieve Their Objectives. If in the first 15 to 30 days POTUS understands the threat, and has the will to deploy a couple of "Heavy Divisions" such as the US 1st Cavalry Division, 2nd Armored Division (both at Fort Hood, TX), and the 4th Mechanized Infantry Division (Fort Carson, CO) {Cavalry, Armor, and Infantry are merely historical; all three are "Heavy Divisions" each with 10 Battalions of either Infantry or Armor (tanks) {4-6 of each}, a Cavalry Squadron, a Helicopter Brigade, 3 Artillery Bn (SP 155mm), etc., etc., etc.} along with airpower, etc. The story would be far less the Alien Invaders and instead the Media and Woke, as well as the Mexicans and the "Global Community" reacting to the "USA INVASION of Mexico" and the political maneuvering of various forces and factions. Perhaps interesting, but not the primary story I want to tell (much of this will eventually come to pass later in the saga, but Not the immediate focus).

Corruption and incompetence among Mexican LEOs, (and least, but most importantly) among the "Federales" (Mexican Federal Police; in RL "replaces" {re-named) the Mexican National Guard c.2021), is essential to the success of the alien invasion. The Mexican armed forces have No ZERO Tanks, only 4 fighter jets, and are equipped with a "Dogs Breakfast" of weapons and other military equipment. The only purpose (other than a few annual parades) of the Mexican military is to preserve the Mexican FEDERAL Government (in Mexico City); for the most part the armed forces are kept out of the conflict(s) with the (Drug) Cartels. "Political Reliability" is the paramount consideration of the government about (commissioned) Officers. The NCO corps is understrength and compared to the USA weak and poorly trained. Mexican soldiers are (generally) patriotic (of Mexico, not any particular party). Mexican soldiers are disgusted by the Cartels, and Mexico's weakness, however, individuals can be bought off or intimidated.

Mexican Federal Police are nearly as heavily armed as the Mexican Army, and in many cases better trained. MFP are less corrupt than the poorly paid and trained state and municipal police.

Thus, much of the early combat is between Mexican LEOs vs alien invaders. Despite significantly superior equipment, the Mexicans are heavily outnumbered. Further, corrupt officers are not likely to risk their lives in a desperate fight. They already decided to not risk their lives in the conflict against the cartels, why would they suddenly change, especially since death is even more likely vs. the aliens! Many of the members of the cartels are patriotic (of a fashion) but it's not like the are trained or prepared to fight aliens. Mexico, similar to China with Peking ("Bejing"), Russia with Moscow, France with Paris, is hyper focused on the national capital (also financial, cultural, etc.); the "Provincial" hinterlands are of far less consideration.

"Believing" that "Aliens are Invading Earth" is problematic; Despite YouTube and Tic-Tok videos, etc. No "credible" politician or public official wants to be the first to make public statements that may well make them appear to be a fool. It is a Major Plot Point! In RL we (military/intelligence personnel) have solid information; yet Bureaucrats (including in the Pentagon) and Politicians disregard, even denigrate information about WMD's in Iraq, Iran, and elsewhere, or terrorist attacks, such as upon the Boston Marathon, etc., etc., etc. Bureaucrats (in Mexico, the USA, etc.) typically have their own agendas (usually far different from what the public thinks, or their legal mandates). My story could help people understand Why we "lost" in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. Corruption, the cartels, drug smuggling and human trafficking, and other RL situations in Mexico (and the USA) are depicted in my story. "Political Agendas" as well as individuals' personal goals and biases have a significant impact upon the course of event s in my story.

I am sure that most of the "Wokerati" would accuse me of being "Racist" despite the fact that many of the military personnel selected for various operations in my story are Latinos and Latinas (many are Utes, Apache, etc.) it is much more a matter of individual ethos, combined with much better training and resources. I believe it is more courageous to fight outnumbered when you can't trust your superiors, nor many fellow "Federales" than for a "Spec-Ops Operator" with a Predator RPA overhead to do his duty.

I am enjoying your story, and have added it to my Library.

JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@awnlee jawking

The wokerati have decreed that the cowboys and Indians variant is racist and must be cancelled. Did your author write any cowboys and Indians stories or are they all cowboys and more cowboys?

In the two I've read, the antagonists were a disgruntled railroad engineer and a criminal running a land grab scheme against a young widow. In his author's note at then end of the second one, his eightieth, he wrote:

In a time when a generation is being taught to hate this great nation, I want to proudly say God bless the United States of America.

That said, in the same book, his protagonist demonstrates kindness and compassion toward prostitutes and Mexicans living in Texas. So, I suspect his other books likely portray native Americans, if any involve such characters, in a way that would be acceptable to most of the "woke." Only most, of course. For some, it seems that breathing is a mortal offense to decency.

Replies:   Marius-6
Marius-6 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

That said, in the same book, his protagonist demonstrates kindness and compassion toward prostitutes and Mexicans living in Texas.

There was a broad spectrum of views of "Saloon Girls" and other "Soiled Doves" (Prostitutes) in Texas, and elsewhere. To focus on the typical times and settings of most "Western" stories.

"Crib Girls" were the lowest, mostly found in mining "Boom Towns" or occasionally the destinations of cattle drives. "Crib Girls" were chattle, and were often barely considered human beings.

In many places where there were very few women, "Saloon Girl" type prostitutes were often treated well. Conversation with a woman was almost as eagerly sought as sex. How men treated prostituttes is just as diverse as mens' (and womens') atitudes about women.

Women, in particular Married Women were typically far more negative in their opinions and treatment of prostitutes.

More than a few prostitutes eventually married men (especially in the "Old West" in particular c.1866-1890). In particular, several of the Earp brothers married prostitutes (mentioned early in the movie Tombstone when after disembarking from the train, they look at their reflections in a window and make allusuions to the womens' backgrounds).

Historically, aproximately 1/4 (25%) of Cowboys were Black Men. It was one of the few jobs that paid equally. It was neither a glamorus nor pleasent job. Ranch work, similar to farming was very hard and dirty work. From sunrise (or before) and until dark; not to mention keeping watch on the heard overnight durring cattle drives. Black cowboys were not evenly distributed, and far less common in Texas than many other places in the West.

Latinos were common in Texas, California, New Mexico, and Arizona. Again, I have read that some 25% of Ranch Hands (aka Cowboys, aka Vaqueros, etc.) were Latinos. Mexico too has a rich history (and current tradition) of Vaqueros.

Ranching in the Mexican State of Tejas (aka Texas) is of Mexican (Spanish) origins. Raising beef was donce quite differenly in England. The Republic of Texas, and then US State of Texas had cattle ranches; however, it wasn't until the post Civil War era when cattle ranching expanded significantly.

Vaqueros (and Californios) provided much of the traditions of Cowboys. Cattle ranching was significantly different in California than in Texas, or elsewhere. Many Texican (Anglo) cowboys learned from Tejano (Latino) or Mexican vaqueros.

While some "Anglo" (White) cowboys were racist (in Texas and elsewhere). Many cowboys had respect for any man who was skilled at riding, roping, and other such skills. There are many reasons for racism and prejudice. Commonly, feeling threatened by the "Other" is a major reason. Generally, there was no surplus of cowboys, often there was greater demand for men (or "boys"; if a "boy" could do the job he was considered a Man) to work the cattle drives and ranches.

So, it is believable that a character might have a positive attitude about Mexicans and/or prostitutes.

Both Zane Grey (who lived and wrote closer to the era) and Louis L'Amour (who wrote mostly from the 1950's into the 1980's) have "White" (Anglo, etc.) characters who had positive attitudes about either (or both) Mexicans and Prostitutes (in an era when predominantly White Men or boys) bought Western novels. Both also wrote "racist" characters who hated, or at least disparaged Mexicans.

Daler ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

I was writing a Western. They are a lot of fun to work through. So much material to explore. Lots of conflict, tension to utilize. Exploration, treasure, history, ghosts, low tech, etc. I don't think they're a dying genre. If they are, they shouldn't be.

Radagast ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

An Australian author wrote over 700 western novels under various pen names. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Frank_Meares
Zane Grey had more than 80 Westerns and 200+ screen plays based on his work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zane_Grey

Dicrostonyx ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

I have a feeling that Westerns are like single player PC games. They've been "dying" for decades and are still going strong with large communities of people.

My mother is 80 and complains about when she was a kid and Westerns were all you ever saw on TV and it turned her off the genre. Granted, they only got the one channel. However, even back then she heard people complaining about how Westerns weren't as good as they used to be, they were dumbed down, etc.

It's also worth noting that unlike 60 years ago, the audience for anything is global. Louis L'Amour had to build his reputation with radio dramas and short stories. As of 2010 an estimated 320 million copies of his works had been sold and everything (100 novels and 250 short stories) was still in print. This sounds great until you realize that Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone alone has sold 120 million copies. The advantage of selling to a global audience from the start drastically increases sales.

My point being that even a "dying" genre with a relatively small fan base has a lot bigger potential audience today, when the author can reach anyone in the world, than they did decades ago. Yes this author is doing well by writing to an underserved niche audience, but that doesn't mean the audience is big overall.

Replies:   Justin Case  Justin Case
Justin Case ๐Ÿšซ

@Dicrostonyx

I have a feeling that Westerns are like single player PC games. They've been "dying" for decades and are still going strong with large communities of people.

Yellowstone & 1883.
Look at how it has already influenced Americans.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Justin Case

Yellowstone & 1883.

I didn't like Yellowstone, but 1883 was really good.

I loved the Western movies done in the 1950s. But watching them now, they're not so good. The reason the original "Magnificent Seven" was so good (and is still today) is because of the characters. They are cool and complex.

I only wrote one Western, "The Breeder," but I didn't set out to write a Western. I just needed it to take place before artificial insemination so I chose the 1880s. And I knew more about the Old West than any other part of the world during that time period. At least Hollywood's version of the Old West which is quite sanitized. Literally. The people really smelled back then. I did do my research. My most difficult part was the clothing, especially when it came to sex.

But I even screwed up with the clothing. I had my women wearing dresses. I learned later that they actually wore two pieces โ€” a skirt and a top. But it would have messed up my sex scenes to change it so I left it alone.

Replies:   Paladin_HGWT
Paladin_HGWT ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

But I even screwed up with the clothing. I had my women wearing dresses. I learned later that they actually wore two pieces โ€” a skirt and a top. But it would have messed up my sex scenes to change it so I left it alone.

In the 1880's, even in the Western USA they had both Dresses, and Skirts+tops. There were even more than a few women who wore Pants! (rarely in "Public")

I have been researching the era, clothing in particular, for decades. I have more than a dozen books on the subject. I have visited museums, seen clothing from the era, and talked with re-enactors and costumers. People who devote considerable energy to the subject. I inherited a room full (as in I had to squeeze in sideways) of clothing from the 1950's back to the 1890's much of it "Western Wea" (and photos too). I had other obligations, and was not able to take the time to clean and prepare it for sale; so, I donated it. I did gain connections to folks.

I have also researched men's and women's fashion(s) in 1830's/40's Paris.

On my shelves I have numerous books, as well as binders full of research material on uniforms and other clothing. Firearms and other weapons are also of considerable interest to me. Reading Western novels, even more than watching movies and TV shows, sparked a life-long interest in such things for me.

From the 1860's until at least the 1890's Ranch Hands ("Cowboys") didn't wear denim pants. Denim was mostly worn by Miners, and sometimes farmers. Cowboys didn't want to look like Them! Also, wool or corduroy pants were considered preferable for sitting upon a horse for extended periods. Cotton is less than desirable for getting wet, and even in the Southwest, ranch hands got wet, and not just in rain, quite a bit. Also, perhaps because many were quite young (under 30), Cowboys seem to have been much more "fashion conscious" than most other men. ("Tooled" boots, conchos, etc. were commonly worn by Cowboys, few other laborers were as concerned about their appearance in that era.)

Justin Case ๐Ÿšซ

@Dicrostonyx

I have a feeling that Westerns are like single player PC games. They've been "dying" for decades and are still going strong with large communities of people.

Yellowstone & 1883.
Look at how it has already influenced Americans.

j_argyle ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

Agree that they seem to be fewer. Recently was re-reading the Unremarkable Day series by Wild Willie. Anyone know what happened to him. Hasn't added to stories in several years.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin ๐Ÿšซ

@j_argyle

"Wild Willie's status is Unknown. His last known contact with the SOL community was a Forum post on June 28, 2017.

Wild Willie began posting stories to SOL on September 10, 2012 and he began posting his last story on August 25, 2015. He posted a total of three stories."

There is a contributor status list on the site.

blackjack2145309 ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

To be honest i think westerns are still alive and well as a genre, it's just that there's not that many people that write for that particular genre.

I mean the last western i remember in recent memory was the remake of the magnificent 7 with denzel washington in the lead role (which i think he kicked ass in because he's a great actor)

and there was the ever popular firefly (if you could call that a western/scifi fusion)

If i had to be honest, i think the over the air TV has been saturated with wayyyy to many crime dramas the last few years.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

Westerns - A Dying Breed?

Are Horror/Western crossovers a dying half-breed?

AJ

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