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lowly comma question

Remus2 🚫
Updated:

Getting a bit frustrated with the subject. I see sites like this one in research;

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/punctuation/commas/extended_rules_for_commas.html

That is just one of many. Many that don't line up with each other.

Then I see multiple DTP books and online reading materials that butcher those 'rules' like pigs before the 4th of July in the States.

Further, there are other sites that I read where reviewers get into flame wars on that and other 'rules' of the English language.

The last time I sat foot on a college campus as a paying student was in 1977. Even then, the emphasis for me was STEM coursework. By 1990, I had people to review and edit documents I created.

Now, one year after retirement, I find myself trying to come back up to speed on writing; but in the doing, I find no universal coherence in the English language.

All that said, how do the people here process that problem? Or do you just say screw it and go with what sounds right to you?

Replies: Dominions Son Switch Blayde awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@Remus2

Now, one year after retirement, I find myself trying to come back up to speed on writing; but in the doing, I find no universal coherence in the English language.

Are you fond of tilting at windmills, or frequently go looking for unicorns?

You won't find "universal coherence" in any language spoken by humans.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Dominions Son

It was a simple question. No snark or other rudeness in reply was needed. I was recently advised not to respond to you in particular. I see the wisdom in that advice. This will be my last response to you on any subject.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

It has been my experience that there are actually several different regional schools of comma usage. In my Fiction Writing and Style Guide, which is available as a free e-book from Bookapy and many other sites, I state the following about commas:

Quote

Commas

There are many existing style guides, blogs, and advice articles on the use of commas, so I've no intention of going into the details of all the ways you can use a comma in a sentence. The best articles I've found are some of the Ted Ed YouTube posts, the links are below. The first is on the general use of the comma and the second is on the serial comma.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHnl1O3NGJk

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptM7FzyjtRk

There are many reason why you need to use a comma, with the most common ones being: Explanatory Phrases, Introductory Phrases, and to show items in a List. However, I'll mention the serial comma first.

Serial Comma

The use of the serial comma, often called the Oxford Comma, can lead to confusion. Also, not using the serial comma can cause confusion. The experts and public are in total disagreement on using it. The choice to use it or not is allowed by style guides and leave up to the writer. What they do say is to be consistent in it's use. I tend to always use it in lists.

Explanatory Phrase

You use commas before and after an explanatory phrase, sometimes called an expansion phrase, to mark the start and end of the additional information you're providing about what was mentioned just before the starting comma. This information is an insert of more information and the commas mark the boundaries of the insertion, unless it's the last part of the sentence, then the full stop ends the insertion. Examples:

The owner, Maggie Meadows, greets us when we pull up in front of the main house.

There's a wait of several seconds, that's a very long time for a major computer.

Introductory Phrase

Is a phrase used to introduce the sentence or paragraph, but it's not directly linked to the very next phrase in the sentence, so a comma is used to separate them. Example:

"From what Joe told me, if a potential Caretaker is rejected by three new Heroes she's dropped from consideration."

Please do not regard locational phrases as introductory phrases. Too often a sentence will start with a phrase to locate the people or action in a time or place, and some writers will see this as an introductory phrase instead of the start of the main sentence phrase. It doesn't help that some of the style guides say to treat it as an introductory phrase. The problem is it often fragments the sentence. With an introductory phrase it can often be placed on the end or removed and the sentence will still make total sense in the story context, but doing that with a locational phrase will leave you a little confused.

Lists

Items can be listed one after the other on separate lines or they can be listed within the sentence on the same line where they're separated by a comma. When using commas in a list there's disagreement about the use of the serial comma which can often clarify things or cause confusion, depending on how it's used. Most people think of lists as being single items, which is the most common usage of lists. However, you can also use commas to list actions, etc. Examples are:

I decide to be brutally honest, "No, it's not. I've killed several people with a sword, a few with a knife, some by hand, and even shot a couple who needed killing. In all cases it was a matter of defending myself, or someone else, against a bad guy on everyone's 'better dead' list."

She turns, looks at me, smiles, and bows.

end quote

I hope this helps you.

BTW: One thing I've noticed is a lot of US authors use an excess of commas, especially with regards to scene and time setting phrases.

Replies: Remus2 Keet Switch Blayde

Remus2 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Serial Comma

The use of the serial comma, often called the Oxford Comma, can lead to confusion. Also, not using the serial comma can cause confusion. The experts and public are in total disagreement on using it. The choice to use it or not is allowed by style guides and leave up to the writer. I tend to always use it in lists.

The understatement of the year in bold. Also the source of most of my concerns.

What they do say is to be consistent in it's use.

That statement appears to be the trend in my re-education on the subject.

Thank you for a concise reply, it helps.

Keet 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

The use of the serial comma, often called the Oxford Comma, can lead to confusion. Also, not using the serial comma can cause confusion.

In Dutch we don't use the Oxford comma but I find myself using it anyway when writing in Dutch because indeed it removes possible confusion. Of course the intention in Dutch is that you read a serial as if there was an Oxford comma. What I don't see is where an Oxford comma could cause confusion. An examples for that?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Keet

An examples for that?

Long, long ago in a universe far, far away, I read an article claiming it was possible and giving an example.

So yes, it's possible, but extremely rare.

Just use common sense. If there's any doubt in your mind whether a sentence could be misinterpreted, find another way of writing it.

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

The use of the serial comma, often called the Oxford Comma, can lead to confusion.

The style guides (like the AP Style Guide) that don't use the serial comma say you use it to avoid confusion. Like:

"I want to thank A, B and C."

People who use the serial comma would write it as:

"I want to thank A, B, and C."

Both work. However, if you wrote:

"I want to thank my parents, God and Mother Theresa."

By not having the serial comma it reads like God and Mother Theresa are his parents rather than thanking both. So although the AP Style Guide says not to use the serial comma, it says to use it for that sentence to avoid confusion.

But using the serial comma never adds confusion. It just looks funny to people who don't use it (and uses another character which is why AP says not to use it - to save newspaper space). If God and Mother Theresa were in fact his parents, the serial comma would not be there. Not because eliminating it would make it confusing, but because it would be blatantly wrong to put it there because it's not separating a list of items.

BarBar 🚫

Ernest demonstrated, without specifically mentioning, another use of the comma.

We always put a comma before quoted text (or after):

I decide to be brutally honest, "No, it's not. I've killed several ...

"Hello," called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "Is there anybody there?"

Replies: Ernest Bywater Remus2 BlacKnight

Ernest Bywater 🚫
Updated:

@BarBar

We always put a comma before quoted text (or after):

That's because it's an Explanatory Phrase to show the dialogue of what the person says or said.

People often confuse story dialogue with a quote, and there's been many an electron killed in the forum discussing the differences. However, the best quick answer I've seen about the difference between story dialogue and a quote is: Story dialogue is by one of the persons on the scene stating something right then while a quote is stating what a third person not at the scene wrote or said, or quote is in dialogue stating what a person has previously said.

Edit to add: many people insist story dialogue is a quote and they totally disagree with the above about dialogue - which they're allowed to do. Thus I see no point in starting another long discussion on the dialogue / quote issue and will try not to respond to any comments that disagree with the above.

Replies: BarBar

BarBar 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

I'm going to agree with Ernest here. I should have said put a comma before or after dialogue.

While he is correct that dialogue is an explanatory phrase, I suspect the average layperson would think of it as a distinct thing needing its own explanation.

Remus2 🚫

@BarBar

I've seen the way You mention it, and the way Earnest does. Your method seems more prevalent in the States, but I can't rule out the other either. As for what reads right to me, the method Earnest utilizes reads more correct to me. Then again, I've been influenced more than I realized by excessive time overseas so I may have it wrong and not realize it.

"Hello," called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "Is there anybody there?"

You bring up another question. Shouldn't that sentence read:

"Hello," called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "is there anybody there?"

Is there some rule I'm missing there?

Replies: BarBar Keet

BarBar 🚫
Updated:

@Remus2

You bring up another question. Shouldn't that sentence read: "Hello," called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "is there anybody there?"

Is there some rule I'm missing there?

When I wrote it, Joe finished one sentence with "Hello" and started a new sentence with "Is there ..." thus needing a capital.

If we were going to make it one sentence, then it would become: "Hello," Joe cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "is there anybody there?"

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@BarBar

Thanks for the clarification.

Keet 🚫

@Remus2

You bring up another question. Shouldn't that sentence read:
"Hello," called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "is there anybody there?"

Disclaimer: I'm Dutch and we tend to have more logical grammar rules.

I always find it strange that the first comma is inside the quotes. In my (readers) opinion it being inside means that the comma is part of the quote and the quoted sentence continues in the second part and thus the second part should not start with an uppercase. I understand that the English rule is that the comma is inside but grammatically it should be wrong if the intention was not for two separate sentences. Logically the sentences would than be:
"Hello.", called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "Is there anybody there?"
If the intention was for a single quoted sentence than it should logically be:
"Hello,", called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "is there anybody there?"
I know, it looks strange but I did say logically. The first comma is part of the quote telling the sentence will continue, the second comma separates the quote from the other text. Without the two-part sentence construction it should logically look something like this:
"Hello, is there anybody out there?", called out Joe.
Notice that there still are 2 comma's but because the last character before the closing quote is a question mark it suddenly doesn't look that strange anymore but logically correct
Of course logic is the last thing considered when it's about grammar hence all the different style guides.

BlacKnight 🚫
Updated:

@BarBar

We always put a comma before quoted text (or after):

I decide to be brutally honest, "No, it's not. I've killed several ...

"Hello," called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "Is there anybody there?"

To elaborate further, this applies when there's a sentence that's partly narrative and partly quoted dialogue, and there's not already punctuation other than a period at the interface between narrative and dialogue.

So:

"Hello!" called out Joe. "Is there anybody there?" he tentatively inquired.

"Hello," said Betty. "It's just me."

"Oh, that's a relief." He wiped his brow with his handkerchief.

First paragraph has two sentences that are split dialogue and narrative, but there's an exclamation point and a question mark respectively, which don't get replaced by commas.

Second paragraph has a sentence that's split between dialogue and narrative, and the dialogue would end with a period, so the period is replaced with a comma. Then it has a sentence that's only dialogue, so no commas.

Third paragraph has both dialogue and narrative, but they're separate stand-alone sentences, so no comma.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@BlacKnight

"Hello," said Betty. "It's just me."

Second paragraph has a sentence that's split, and the dialogue would end with a period, so the period is replaced with a comma.

If you mean the dialogue is split (by adding "said Betty" within it, then "it's" should be lower case:

"Hello," said Betty, "it's just me."

Meaning the dialogue without the tag would be:

"Hello, it's just me."

Replies: BlacKnight

BlacKnight 🚫

@Switch Blayde

If you mean the dialogue is split (by adding "said Betty" within it, then "it's" should be lower case:

No. Each of my example paragraphs is two sentences. In my second example, the first sentence ("Hello," said Betty.) is split between dialogue and narrative, as the sentences in the first example were. The second sentence ("It's just me.") is only dialogue. Without the dialogue tag, it would be: "Hello. It's just me." I've edited my previous post to clarify.

But you are correct that if it were all one sentence, there would be commas both before and after the tag, and "it's" would not be capitalized.

richardshagrin 🚫

The cereal coma happens when you eat too much corn flakes or other breakfast cereal and fall into a state of prolonged unconsciousness where the patient cannot respond to external stimuli.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Remus2

There are definitely rules for comma use. The OWL ones are what you'd learn in an English class and should be followed in formal writing.

However, authors take liberty with the English language, grammar, and punctuation. An author might write a fragmented sentence for effect even though it's grammatically incorrect. He might not put a comma in where it belongs for sentence flow. Writing fiction is not a science.

I saw a biography on J.D. Salinger recently. He once had a story published in The New Yorker and when he read it in print realized someone on their staff changed a comma (I forget if it was added or removed). He spotted it right away and wouldn't talk to his friend at The New Yorker for years afterward because he was so upset. Salinger knew exactly how he wanted the sentence to sound.

But you better know the rules before you break them. And you should only break them for a good reason.

Remus2 🚫

He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "is there anybody there?"

In my mind, that reads like a single sentence. The word "is" being capitalized is not correct in that case.

"Hello," called out Joe. He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "Is there anybody there?"

In context of the thought string I can see why it was done that way despite being technically wrong.

If I were to reword it, it would read like this:
Joe cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "hello, is there anybody there?"

From what I've gathered, the idea of being consistent is more important than pure technical accuracy for writing fiction.

Thanks for the replies to all who've done so constructively.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Remus2

He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "is there anybody there?"

In my mind, that reads like a single sentence. The word "is" being capitalized is not correct in that case.

'Is anybody there' is a sentence in its own right so should begin with a capital letter.

As an editor and proofreader, I would correct it if it didn't.

AJ

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@awnlee jawking

'Is anybody there' is a sentence in its own right so should begin with a capital letter.

As an editor and proofreader, I would correct it if it didn't.

and shouted, "is there

So you are saying the line should be two sentences instead of one? Wouldn't that require a period or a semicolon instead of a comma after the word shouted?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Remus2

I think technically the period should go after the closed quotes:

He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted, "Is there anybody there?".

but English abhors doubling up on punctuation so the ? is deemed adequate to close everything.

He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted. "Is there anybody there?".

is valid too, but clumsy.

A semi-colon would be invalid. However a colon can be used to introduce dialogue:

He cupped his hands around his mouth and shouted: "Is there anybody there?".

although it isn't often used in novels - it's more common in screenplays.

English, logical? I think Keet has the right impression on that. Just do what the majority does, as that makes for the best communication.

AJ

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Thanks for the reply.

Out of curiosity, why did you consider the sentence "clumsy?"

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Remus2

why did you consider the sentence "clumsy?"

Because the period created a distance between the two clearly related sentences.

AJ

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Remus2

Since nobody else has mentioned it, I will.

Commas also have the function of telling people how to read a sentence aloud, akin to musical notation. Some authors position their commas where they want readers to pause for breath or emphasis, rather than according to grammatical nicety. Apart from the 'mandatory' commas for dialogues, if they read a sentence aloud and can't discern the existence of a comma from the way it was read, the comma gets omitted.

The result is usually surprisingly close to how strict grammarians would have punctuated the text.

AJ

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Commas also have the function of telling people how to read a sentence aloud, akin to musical notation. Some authors position their commas where they want readers to pause for breath or emphasis, rather than according to grammatical nicety.

That makes a lot of sense. Following on that: shouldn't authors prefer to use comma's so that both humans and text-to-speech software correctly translate to the intended "sounding" as opposed to the "grammatically correct" ways?
(Keeping in mind that there's a difference between law texts and novels.)

Replies: awnlee jawking Switch Blayde

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

shouldn't authors prefer to use comma's so that both humans and text-to-speech software correctly translate to the intended "sounding" as opposed to the "grammatically correct" ways?

That's probably a good idea. Written language is being sidelined by a surge in audiobooks and the ubiquitous emojis. But what I think doesn't matter - the language supertanker is moving and is uncontrollable.

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Keet

shouldn't authors prefer to use comma's so that both humans and text-to-speech software correctly translate to the intended "sounding" as opposed to the "grammatically correct" ways?

Absolutely. I believe that was why Salinger was upset about the proofreader adding (or maybe deleting) a single comma. I'm sure the proofreader did it for grammar. Salinger did it because that's the way he wanted it read.

"It was a big, black balloon."

The comma is grammatically correct. You put a comma between adjectives preceding a noun (except for the last one). However, I would often write it without the comma because the comma causes the reader to pause and I may not want that as the authorl

Remus2 🚫

Writing was so much simpler for white, green, blue, and a rare yellow paper. There isn't much variation in those, with them lending themselves well to a procedural, albeit dry, approach.

I believe for fiction, I'll have to write a procedure of my own style to follow given the results of this thread.

samuelmichaels 🚫

In a book I read recently, I found this somewhat enlightening introduction from the author:

Extra commas you may find scattered through the dialogue, are a blatant attempt at mind control. It's my way of making the characters sound the same way in your head, that they do in mine.

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lowly comma question

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