Forum: Lost Stories

I am one of those who post stories but let them become unfinished. I think I had 100 good reasons, health, family issues, etc but mostly it comes down to poor scores, change of where story was going, hitting a direction I did not want to go pirate actions for long stories and new ideas so started a new story. Basic tenet was/is to find a story that people and/or SOL thinks deserve more than a 6 or 7 rating.

I have deleted 20 or so stories, will do 50 more and re-post some or finish a few others. I use downloads as a measure, if a story has I'll delete, if is is high, 30-50,000 for example I'll finish it.

I will never agree with SOL that a story with most scores 8-10 deserves a 6 score while crap stores get a 8-9. Bad form I guess.

I will never agree with SOL that a story with most scores 8-10 deserves a 6 score while crap stores get a 8-9. Bad form I guess.

All stories are scored using the same scoring system, so what applies to one applies to all. However, the scores are the reader's view of what they like and don't like, so any differences in scores are down to how the readers view them.

The scoring formula artificially widens the margin of the scoring results, which means the stories receive different score reductions.

I totally disagree with this statement, because all the scores get treated in the same way to simply shift the median, thus they all shift to the same degree.

If that is so, then why even have SOL change the score or revise what the readers vote. Old stories are not revised neither are stories by long time authors it seems. If the reader votes matter so much why change the score?

If that is so, then why even have SOL change the score or revise what the readers vote. Old stories are not revised neither are stories by long time authors it seems. If the reader votes matter so much why change the score?

The system is set up to make the scores from the different scoring system period relevant to each other.

From what I remember of Lazeez's old blogs that got lost when a server died some years back, the site has been running for about 20 years and the scoring system has had a number of changes in that time, not sure how many but I think it's something like 5 or 6 times. Anyway, the system didn't used to be as resilient as it is now, and it had some faults, which is why the changes were introduced. However, Lazeez did have the scores from the previous period and he processed them so they were all adjusted to a particular median, I think it's 6. The effect is the old scores were all processed the once, and only those in the current score accounting period is adjusted with the new new scores. The effect is along these lines (although I don't know the actual dates, so these are for explanation only):

Assume 5 periods over 20 years of 4 years each so you have score counts of P1 years 1 to 4, P2 years 5 to 8, P3 years 9 to 12, P4 years 13 to 16, P 5 years 17 to now. The scores for the periods P1, P2, P3, and P4 are adjusted so they have a median of 6 and those new scores are locked into the system as such. Period P5 scores are processed under the current system and recalculated as required. The score displayed for a story that came into existence in P5 has only P5 scores, while a very old story will have the scores for the first 4 periods locked in unchanged and only the few scores during period P5 will be adjusted then added to the previous period scores and averaged. The end effect is all the stories with scores from earlier periods only have the more recent scores recalculated to meet the current median shift because the older scores have already been permanently shifted. Thus any changes there aren't as obvious, but they do occur, I know because I've copies of stats on some stories from several years ago I can compare with today's stats.

Another thing to keep in mind is the actual adjustment of the scores doesn't occur until after a certain number of scores are lodged on the story, then it's adjusted after each score. I think the magic number is 20, but I'm not sure and too lazy to check. But say you write a brilliant story and it gets 19 tens, you can see that but the readers can't, then on the 20th vote of a 10 the score processed with the top and bottom 5% cut and then adjusted by the current media weight which is calculated on all the scores lodged on all the stories during the current accounting period which is some years old.

Anyway, the only stat I see as relevant is the number of downloads, not the scores.

Anyway, the only stat I see as relevant is the number of downloads

That's also a potentially misleading statistic. For example, a story with a large number of downloads might actually have a relatively modest number of downloads per chapter. My current WIP is an example of that. I'm keeping the chapter sizes small because I'm making it up as I go along and I'm finding it easier to write that way. If you divide my 'potentially interesting' number of downloads by my number of chapters, it more accurately reflects the story's poor title and description, and its level of appeal.

AJ

For example, a story with a large number of downloads might actually have a relatively modest number of downloads per chapter.

That's depends on how and when the story is read. There are two sets of counters activated on each story (I'll ignore reader stories read counters here) with one for the story and one for the chapter read. Every time withing a SoL 24 hr day you visit any page of a story the story counter will only click once within that day, the same is true for each chapter.

This means if you open and close the same chapter of the same story 25 times in the one day each will only register a count of one. It also means if you open a story and read 25 chapters that day each chapter and the story will get a count of one. However, if you open a 25 chapter story on day 1 and read 15 chapters then open the story again on day 3 to read the rest of the chapters the story will get a count of two (one for each day you opened the story) and each chapter will only get a count of one. That's why the chapter count totals never match the story count totals in your author stats.

Now, when you post a 25 chapter story over 25 weeks and a person reads each chapter as it's posted then each chapter will get a count of 1 but the story will get a count of 25 due to it being visited 25 times over the 25 weeks. This only occurs when the story is posted or if it's so long a reader takes days to read it. After the full story is up many readers will reader the story in one sitting so it only gets one story count then, unless they read it at a time the SoL day clicks over, then it'll get a count for each day it's accessed.

You can game the system a little by posting a bunch of small chapters every few days or each week, as against posting a smaller number of large chapters. However, some people, like you said, prefer to write smaller chapters. I write chapters that are as long as relevant for that chapter, but when I post the story after I complete it I actually cut the story up into larger pasting groups of between 5,000 to 10,000 words to give the readers a good read with each post. Some posts will have a single actual story chapter, while some can have up to five or six story chapters in them. The only times I post less than the target is when it's a short story or the final posting or a stand alone foreword.

E B you have almost described the process but WHY do it. Someone at SOL told me it was because The readers vote too high and don't know how to vote so WE change things to a 6 or so.
That was on the old voting system like in 2012 or so but ...????

It is an Oxymoron to say Readers votes are the measure then to revise them according to what someone thinks they should be. Wait, what am I thinking. Didn't Canada have a King or a Queen who made all the decisions? Actual I like Canada, worked there 3 years with Provincial sanction, dated a Banff Springs girl and worked for a consultant of BP, enjoyed both Toronto and Vancouver areas.

As I told Lazeez, it is his site, he does a superb job running it and can do what he will. In my opinion though the changing of votes does not reflect what readers think. 'Let them eat CAKE' Ehh.

E B you have almost described the process but WHY do it. Someone at SOL told me it was because The readers vote too high and don't know how to vote so WE change things to a 6 or so.

One of the very early systems did have people consistently voting too high, which is why the system was changed at that time, but that hasn't been the case for the last few changes. I believe that was the reason and the change where the adjustment to a median of 6 was introduced. One past change was to introduce the option of voting on three aspects of the story including the technical aspects and the story appeal and plot or a simply appeal only vote. Another change was to eliminate the the twin system and make it back into a single appeal only vote system. Then there were complaints about people 1 bomb voting stories and fanbois 10 voting everything a writer they liked posted causing blips, so the change to cut the top and bottom 5% to minimise the impacts of such behaviour was introduced. With that last change Lazeez said that was it, no more changes to the voting, no matter what, and he also refused to discuss it any more because nothing he could do would satisfy all of the authors, so he settled for a system that made the bulk of the readers happy while the bulk of the authors accepted the system. There are still a few who don't like it at all, but then I suspect, from their posts, there's no voting system in the world they like.

There's a recent review in which the reviewer assesses a story as underrated by at least 1.25. I'm not sure the reviewer fully understands how the scoring system works :(

AJ

I'm quite certain the vast majority of readers have no idea how the scoring system works.

From a reader's perspective when they score a story they need only pick on point on a scale of 1 to 10 on how much they liked or disliked a story. It isn't that hard.

From a reader's perspective when they score a story they need only pick on point on a scale of 1 to 10 on how much they liked or disliked a story. It isn't that hard.

Except I've gotten emails from readers who can't understand why my scores aren't higher because they relate the score showing to the 1-10 score they give.

edit: Robberhands quoted switch blade and it is the quote I have taken - I cannot find the original. Hence the odd ascription

He didn't quote me. He replied to one of my posts (hence my name in it), but he quoted SOL's FAQ.

Surely votes are there to massage authors' egos,

Numerous times in the past discussions about voting before Lazeez said he'll not discuss them anymore, he had said the voting system was there simply as a guide to assist the readers by providing a system where other readers gave a simply story evaluation - or words to that effect. He did make it clear the voting system was for the readers and not the authors, which is a major reason for why he got fed up of the authors bitching about the voting system. there's no system that will satisfy all the authors, so why care about what system is used, as long as it treats all the stories in the same way, which this one does.

Surely votes are there to massage authors' egos, persuading them to write more or plan better next time.

Nope. Votes are there strictly for the reader.

With that last change Lazeez said that was it, no more changes to the voting, no matter what, and he also refused to discuss it any more because nothing he could do would satisfy all of the authors

Lazeez is a reasonable person and if someone came up with the perfect scoring system for this site I'm sure he'd give it due consideration.

Look, there it goes now, flying around in the sky going oink oink oink ;)

AJ

Readers votes are the measure

The reader's votes place the stories in an order based on their collective like of the stories. Nothing that happens with the median adjustment changes that order at all, but it does make it easier to relate the votes from the different voting periods to each other.

I've been posting stories here for well over a decade and have seen the effects some of those changes have had on the scores of my stories, and it bothers me not at all. I don't write to get high scores, I write what I like to write - end of story. If some people like the stories, well and good, if they don't, that's also well and good. I get emails attacking the tense I write in the point of view I write in, and others supporting both those aspects, however, I've used past and present tense, 1st person and 3rd person point of view, and I now tend to 3rd person present tense because I feel they give the story a more real feel of now in the story, but some don't like it because they think past tense is the only true way to write. Those emails don't bother me at all, neither do the scores.

By writing a story in the present tense you run the risk of writing yourself into a time corner.

Whatever tense you use can paint you into a corner if you're not careful. One thing a lot of people forget is even in present tense for what's happening in the story now, when you recount a past event you use either the past tense or establish it as a flashback.

when you recount a past event you use either the past tense or establish it as a flashback.

That's the same. In a present tense story, you write the flashback in past tense because it happened previous to the current time in the story (the present).

In fact, that's one advantage of writing in present tense. The flashbacks are written in simple past tense. Write a story in past tense and the flashback has to be written in past perfect tense which can be annoying to read.

That's the same. In a present tense story, you write the flashback in past tense because it happened previous to the current time in the story (the present).

I beg to differ, Switch, you recount a past event in past tense, or you flashback to the event and re-live it in the present tense.

I beg to differ, Switch, you recount a past event in past tense, or you flashback to the event and re-live it in the present tense.

That's interesting. I don't write in present tense so it never came up for me. But it seems odd to me. It's the tense that determines the point in time in the story.

I've seen dreams in past tense stories written in present tense (in italics). I am not a fan of that either.

It's the tense that determines the point in time in the story.

It's the tense that decides the point in time of the story in relationship to the narrator or speaker at that point.

In Finding Home I have Al recount and event from months earlier by having him start the event in the current now, then he notes his mind goes back to that day, and the following sub-chapter is an accounting of the event as a flashback of most of the event period, with the next sub-chapter opening up with him returning to the current now to finish the tale outcomes.

Because it is written in the past tense one innately realises that there is more to come: IF it had been written in the present tense throughout there is not the same sense of waiting for more updates.

The non-fiction book "Killing Lincoln" is a historical account of what happened in the past and is written in present tense.

Basic tenet was/is to find a story that people and/or SOL thinks deserve more than a 6 or 7 rating.

There's a large number of readers who are like me, we don't score a story until after we finish reading the whole story. Thus, any story not completed is never going to get scored by us. Some readers have been known to score a story low if it gets the yellow stripe. Take too long between posting chapters and many readers will give up on a story, regardless of how great it is.

There's a large number of readers who are like me, we don't score a story until after we finish reading the whole story.

And thus creating a problem if the author is looking to the score for feedback on whether to continue. I'm not saying you're wrong - there are advantages and disadvantages to whatever point a reader chooses to score a story.

AJ

I have to agree with you on that.

And thus creating a problem if the author is looking to the score for feedback on whether to continue.

I think that is the wrong attitude or reason to posting. I've seen more than one example of various authors holding their unfinished or just started story hostage to the scores.

Morally I agree with you and I loathe blackmailers. But since it's not illegal on SOL (AFAIK) to adopt such tactics, it remains a legitimate tool for authors to assess whether readers like a story enough to continue it.

AJ

You bring up a very good point. The only thing is I got the low(6) scores BEFORE the story went yellow(1 Year) without updates.

A couple of stories, only 2 or so (of 100 plus) at first were 8.5 and 9 then went to 6 a day or 2 later but little difference in votes.

I will never agree with SOL that a story with most scores 8-10 deserves a 6 score

I wonder whether part of the problem is the disjoint between the raw scores and the overall rating. I haven't tested this but I suspect a story attracting all 8s from readers would end up with a rating well below the median. A reader can compare a story's rating with others, but it's not clear how good the story actually is.

Perhaps a solution would be to remove the inference of a link between score values and ratings by instead publishing the percentage of how many stories have a lower rating. So the best story on SOL would be rated at 100.00% and the worst at 0.00%.

AJ

I haven't tested this but I suspect a story attracting all 8s from readers would end up with a rating well below the median.

I very much doubt it, because all the scores get shifted by the same degree, so anything above the median will stay above the median and the relative relationships between the stories will stay the same.

The process is a lot like a toy I had as a kid in the 1960s. The toy had three major points in a set of scissoring arms. One end was fixed while the other two points had a pen and a needle in them, and you could swap them about. With the needle in the middle position you could trace and image and the pen would draw you a perfectly enlarged version, swap them over and you can trace an image to have the pen draw a perfect smaller version. In both cases the new image was a different size to the original, but everything was still in perfect relationship to everything else within the image. - - the same is true of the score system in all the stories remain in perfect relationship to each other.

No point in bitching about the scoring system, it isn't going to change again, so you're best to just accept it as is.

I very much doubt it, because all the scores get shifted by the same degree, so anything above the median will stay above the median

The median raw score allocated by readers seems to be more than 8, certainly based on the scores I can see for my stories. So if all the readers of a story award it an 8, the final rating will be below the median rating.

I'm not bitching, just trying to think of a way of reducing the confusion about what meaning can be ascribed to a story rating.

AJ

The median raw score allocated by readers seems to be more than 8, certainly based on the scores I can see for my stories. So if all the readers of a story award it an 8, the final rating will be below the median rating.

The official scores all get shifted by the same degree, so any gap existing before the shift will stay the same after the shift - thus there is no widening of the gap, as you said before.

I couldn't remember the name before, but thinking about it since I'm sure it was called a Sketch o Graph or a Sketch a Graph - something like that, and it worked exactly like the Pantograph in the link in Helmut's post. I had great fun with it as a kid back in the early and mid 60s.

From the onset of posting a new story I find the incomming scores somehow exciting. Later, when the score slowly settles, it's as exciting as watching grass grow.

Exactly, but I watch the downloads more than the scores. But after the first 48 hours I stop watching them. I only ever look at the scores when we have discussions on them.

...oh, it's just another thread about the scoring system.

ir didn't start that way, but ended up there, like many do.

That is Lazeez intention but given that it is for the readers why do authors gripe about one scores?

A group of authors did a lot of bitching about trolls 1 bombing stories based on a story tag or two without actually reading the story, so Lazeez instituted the top and bottom 5% cut as a way to deal with them. I have to take the blame or kudos for that, because I suggested it to Lazeez way back when - it's what they do with the ice skating events - the judges give their scores and the top and bottom score are culled before they calculate the average.

Authors gripe about scores because they are a critique of the story we wrote and we grouse about any form of critique. Furthermore, the scores are the most visible advertisement of a story and a bad score is bad advertisement.

I think the scores of the Halloween Contest stories before the authors were made public are most illuminating.

AJ