I wanted to ask this because i personally don't read anything on SoL that's under 400KB and that's not knocking short stories it's just that i feel like it's not worth getting invested into something that ends so quickly.
What do you guys think about short stories in general? As in author why do you write short stories over novel length stories?
While I prefer the longer stories, I have read and enjoyed quite a few short stories. The short stories I enjoyed the most were the ones that had a definitive ending.
I almost exclusively read longer stories although my limit is lower than your 400kB. My reason is quite simple: I read a lot, multiple hours every day. With short stories that would mean multiple stories one after the other, often on the same day. That doesn't work as well as being able to read the same story over multiple days.
You also write short stories and I for one think some of yours are definitely worth reading. Despite the length they evoke an emotional response in the reader and tell a tale.
That being said, yes, I read short stories of all lengths. Flash, short, novella matters not as long as it is well written.
i personally don't read anything on SoL that's under 400KB
When I do a Category Search, I set the max size at 400kb (or often less, like 200kb). I find the long stories on SOL to be quite boring and don't think I ever finished reading one.
I love short stories. To read and write. Short stories are not short novels. They have some of the same characteristics, but are unique. They have 1 or 2 main characters, no sub-plots, a single event, and usually a twist. There's an art to writing a good short story. Just read an O'Henry short story.
Unfortunately, since I started writing novels I can't seem to write a short story. The story I'm writing now started out as a short story. It's approaching 70,000 words and still going. In fact, I haven't even reached the twist that was the key to the short story.
my 300kb stories are all over 50K words...
that, according to what I researched by dead tree publishers, is novel length. I call them baby novels.
Most mysteries are less than 100k words and would be in the 400kb range.
remember, less chapters means less Kb space used.
if someone uses longer and fewer chapters, then the story length on this site diminsishes.
While I too like longer stories. skipping all of the ones in the 250-400 range is doing yourself a diservice.
(and yes, i do know that my reasoning is disjointed here, i havent had my coffee yet.)
Shad
according to what I researched by dead tree publishers, is novel length.
That would depend on genre. For Science Fiction or high fantasy, Average novel length is closer to 100K words.
remember, less chapters means less Kb space used.
if someone uses longer and fewer chapters, then the story length on this site diminsishes.
I didn't know that.
There's about 20kB of headers, footers, CSS, scripting, and so on that isn't story text included in each story page. It's all duplicated on every page (not just chapter; if the chapter's long enough that it breaks, you get all of that stuff again at each page-break), so each page added to the story increases the reported size by about 20kB before even considering the actual content. For really short stories, there's more of that than there is actual story... 20kB is like 3000 words.
A lot of that formatting stuff used to be stored in external shared stylesheets, but those got merged into the story files themselves a few months ago, I think to reduce the number of download connections when the site was being DDoSed.
Except none of that is counted in the stories size count or you would never have a story under 20K (unless you mean kiloBit instead of kiloByte, but that would be odd, no? I wasn't aware that anyone used that measure in the world of petabytes!)
Since there are a plethora of stories on SOL under that size, I have a couple myself, then the site doesn't count that type if information and, if I remember correctly, even leaves out things like carriage returns (or maybe it is multiple ?)
There is a thread somewhere on how story size is calculated if you are really interested in the detail. I never cared enough to learn the details because they didn't matter to me.
There's about 20kB of headers, footers, CSS, scripting, and so on that isn't story text included in each story page. It's all duplicated on every page (not just chapter; if the chapter's long enough that it breaks, you get all of that stuff again at each page-break), so each page added to the story increases the reported size by about 20kB before even considering the actual content. For really short stories, there's more of that than there is actual story... 20kB is like 3000 words.
Ok, so please explain why if each page adds 20kb to a story why there are 2483 stories between 1kb and 5kb in size...?
That ignores the 223 stories with a size of 0kb, yup zero kb.
If however the system ignores and therefore does not count the script and only counts the words, then why does it matter what size the script is..? A search for a given story size will ignore the script anyway.
remember, less chapters means less Kb space used.
if someone uses longer and fewer chapters, then the story length on this site diminsishes.
I thought the (fairly) recent changes Lazeez made to the story length reporting changed this - ignoring the html wrappings and counting multibyte unicode characters as one.
ETA: Nope; a single chapter one I saved back in 2017 has the same SOL-reported length (34k) now, and just the text contents comes to about 32.5k verses a html filesize of 39.1k - unless, of course, the new accounting only applies to new/changed stories.
Anyway, ignoring shorts misses some very good stories - Scrunchie by Misstaken and BarBar's First Times being two I can quickly identify. Not stories to wile away long winter evenings, but pretty good to show to others to hopefully hook them on SoL.
I almost never look at anything below 100K. If it is an author I like, and I am bored, then I might give it a look, but otherwise... not so much.
Having said that, it is hypocritical for me to do it that way, since I have 7 or 8 under 100K.
But... and there is always a butt... Of those, half or more are part of an existing universe and don't need the heavy lifting in building a background or history, readers already know the premise (or should) so all that is left is character building and plot. The remaining ones were mostly fun bit and experiments and I don't care if they were critically acclaimed or not, I didn't put a lot of work in them to begin with.
So there you have it. Double Standards AHOY!
Ignoring everything below 400KB means everything by https://storiesonline.net/a/todd-d172 gets ignored. No. Some of his works are set within his universes but some are not and are none the worse for that.
I am the same.
Even if it is the best story since the invention of sliced bread. Why bother reading it, when you just feel empty and longing for more after finishing it?
Why bother reading it, when you just feel empty and longing for more after finishing it?
But you shouldn't feel empty and longing if it's a well-written short story. It has a beginning, middle, and end. There should be a conflict and the resolution of the conflict. Now you might wonder what happens next, but that's another story. This one is done.
So, it isn't for me. I always wonder what happens next. And when it isn't coming, then I like the story less.
Beginning, middle, and end are outdated concepts. At least for my tastes. If I know how a story will end before I reach the middle of the book, I am more inclined to drop the story unless the characterization is good and then I will still get into the issue of wanting more from that character.
If I know how a story will end before I reach the middle of the book, I am more inclined to drop the story
Is that true for a long story as well? You shouldn't know how the story will end. Especially when there's a twist which many (most?) good short stories have.
Remember the Twilight Zone episode "How to Serve Man"? (I wrote an erotic version for SOL.) The TV show was based on a SciFi short story by Damon Knight called "To Serve Man."
No way did the reader know the ending to that short story ahead of time. It was a great surprise ending, an ending that made the story. But what happens to the MC after he boards the spaceship? That's for the reader to imagine. The story was over. What happens after that is not part of the story.
My guess is your short story experience is with SOL stories. You should read some short stories by famous authors. O'Henry is one. I'm not a Hemingway fan, but he wrote short stories. Stephen King writes short stories. Read Damon Knight's short story I mentioned. I once found it on the internet. Of course, knowing the ending will ruin it.
I wrote several stories in the vein I believe of "Erotica as O'Henry would have written". And I still do, in a recent series often throwing in twists on purpose.
Like in one of my "Dark Tales", where a guy changes partners to avoid one, and ultimately ends up with her anyways. Yes, it is a "mind fuck", which was the purpose in the first place.
I find it fun to fuck with a readers perception. I am still waiting for when I start my next Country Boy story, and destroy most of what people expect (which I plotted out over a year ago).
often throwing in twists on purpose.
I have a great twist in my short story "Forced Lust." "Great" based on the reaction of my readers. I once went back and counted the number of clues I gave. It was a lot. But I believe you'll only see them when re-reading the story. Although some clues might be so subtle many readers might never see them.
I once wrote a short story with another great twist, or so I thought. A man picks up a hitchhiker. A beautiful young girl with long hair running away from home. She teases him in the car and they end up pulling over and fucking in a corn field. The girl wants it up the ass so he gives it to her that way. The twist is — when the man reaches around her to titillate her clit while fucking her in the ass he finds you know what (a dick). I say "I thought it was a great twist" because the feedback wasn't positive because I was told I fooled them into reading a gay story. Up until the very end, in the reader's mind it wasn't a gay story. That's why that story will never be on SOL.
I have done almost the same thing. But was about a prostitute, and only in the last few sentences do I give that away.
I only just realized I have never posted that 20 year old gem in here, maybe I should drag it back out and post it.
I know when I threw it on ASSTR I got a lot of hate mail over that one.
maybe I should drag it back out and post it.
You'll get crucified if you do. If you include the M/M story code you will ruin the surprise. If you don't, you'll get the hate mail and 1-bombs.
You'll get crucified if you do. If you include the M/M story code you will ruin the surprise. If you don't, you'll get the hate mail and 1-bombs.
Well, I just upped it, and if they do they do.
And I get that occasionally already, it does not phase me at all. Hell, I got blasted plenty for my SOL Heaven story a month or so back. Of course, I also know that some in here just can't take a joke.
It is kind of interesting though, I had not read that piece in over 20 years, and I had almost completely forgotten about it until you mentioned your story. I may go through and dig some more of my moldy oldies and throw them up here. And looking at that, I am amazed that I once used to write complete stories, that only took 3 pages.
Well, I just upped it, and if they do they do.
Just went and read it. Good story, well written. Certainly NOT a 1. Full disclosure, I gave it a 9.
I think that a lot of people would be surprised how many people in that profession are just like your main character.
Just went and read it. Good story, well written. Certainly NOT a 1. Full disclosure, I gave it a 9.
Thanks. That was actually just a quick piece I wrote in around 1998, and was typical of how I wrote back then (style and length, not content). At that point I was doing quite a few with "shock endings", normally named after the main character.
Mandy, Mary, Margaret, Carol, Nancy, Sarah, I wrote a slew like that, largely short 15k or so single shot stories. And often with a twist at the end (the stripper the guy picks up and fucks was really his wife, the hooker a guy picks up was really a friend from childhood, things like that). One I have even slated for a major rewrite when I finish some of my current stories and revisiting.
For me, the fun part of that one was trying to keep the secret from the reader, and still make it an entertaining story. But if I was to try it today, it would be completely different.
The 10k or so stories that were common 20 years ago I find painfully brief now.
If you include the M/M story code you will ruin the surprise. If you don't, you'll get the hate mail and 1-bombs.
Isn't that what the 'Caution' tag is for? I've also seen included in the blurb something like 'some tags omitted to avoid spoilers'
Isn't that what the 'Caution' tag is for?
I've used it that way and still readers complained that I left out a squick code.
You shouldn't know how the story will end. Especially when there's a twist which many (most?) good short stories have.
I respectfully suggest Arthur C. Clarke's Quarantine. Very short (flash, postcard-sized), terrific twist. Short does not imply bad, as long does not imply good (even tho' my favourite on this site is Deja Vu Ascendancy).
But what happens to the MC after he boards the spaceship?
About the same thing that happens to the hog after he boards the semi-trailer on the way to the packing plant. Not really much imagination needed for that.
And if you do need some, then I suggest the Classy Conversions series on here. I've read it once, I MAY at some point read it again. It was almost like a car wreck. Once I started reading, I couldn't stop, even when I was completely repulsed by the subject matter. (You know, like reading Battlefield Earth. God, what a wreck.)
(You know, like reading Battlefield Earth. God, what a wreck.)
Oh. My. God.
I was in middle school when I picked up the first book and I don't recall how many of the series I read before I realized that each one was, in most respects, the same as the one before it.
Even back then, when reading was my one escape; the only way I had to blot out the world around me for a while, I couldn't force myself to keep going.
What complete and utter schlock.
Ahhh, Elron. And his ancient Harriers that still flew, and all the munitions that still worked.
He was a C class pulp writer at best, and I never could stand his work.
A short story would not be my first or second choice, unless I knew the author's work already. It's not a hard and fast rule, just a tendency. I know I might miss some good work, but you always have to make choices, and base them on something.
I also avoid the absurdly long stories. My hope is to live long enough to finish what I start.
fwiw
What do you guys think about short stories in general? As in author why do you write short stories over novel length stories?
Imagine if you will that you and I are discussing art galleries and I told you that I avoided looking at any artwork unless the canvas was at least eight foot by five foot...
That's how I feel about reading stories only if they are over a certain size.
So what if that means I miss out on enjoying most of the great works of art. I mean really, why would an artist bother to paint something as small as say 30"x20" ??? It's not like I'd miss much of consequence, like say... La Gioconda...
That is a bit over the top, no? I can be ridiculous too!
What you seem to be saying is that we should be digging through 10,000 kindergarden fingerpaintings on the fridge in the hopes that one of them shows some real artistic merit.
While each one means something to the one who created it, and it means something to those who have an investment (time, emotions, whatever) in the creator, it doesn't necessarily follow that it is art that everyone should take the time to fully consider before moving on.
How about a more apt simile?
I don't care for postmodernism much, have no patience or love for abstract expressionism and have no taste for pop art. I do, however, love architecture (Frank Lloyd Wright), classic sculpture (Auguste Rodin) and, just for fun, a touch of surrealism with artists like Salvadore Dali and Max Ernst (but not Jean Arp, way too Pop Art for me).
So, I will rarely browse pop art or abstract artists since I already know that most, but not all, don't appeal to me. I will concentrate my time where my tastes have already shown me I will find what I like.
You would have me waste the finite amount of time I have for leisure in a pointless attempt to develope a taste for a shitty stencil of a Soup Can?
(This is all done in fun, no serious poking of sharp sticks, please!)
What you seem to be saying is that we should be digging through 10,000 kindergarden fingerpaintings on the fridge in the hopes that one of them shows some real artistic merit.
Not at all, I was simply pointing out that using a physical size, in inches or kb, is to me a nonsensical method to choose which is 'worthy' of attention.
As you rightly point out, size isn't everything, it does not take into account style, subject or personal bias.
ps
"poking of sharp sticks" ??? I'm a good girl, I am, I won't even make you sit in the comfy chair...
:)
Of course not, no one expects The Spanish Inquisition.
I'll bring you a cup of coffee at eleven......
:)
I'll bring you a cup of coffee at eleven......
Sorry, you have to be at least fourteen on SOL ;)
AJ
Sorry, you have to be at least fourteen on SOL ;)
Not if you keep it in your dungarees.... :)
Not if you keep it in your dungarees.... :)
If that's the way you meant it, you are around 40 years too late.
If that's the way you meant it, you are around 40 years too late.
You chose to interpret 'eleven' as years instead of o'clock like the script says...
:)
dungarees
DAMN! That's a word I was trying desperately to remember a few weeks back. And now I've 'remembered' it, I've forgotten the context.
AJ
And I have only one context for the word as it is not regularly used in American English. The only place I have ever used the word dungarees is while in the US Navy as that is what the enlisted work uniform was called at the time. From my understanding it has changed a few times since then and I no longer know the current terminology.
The only place I have ever used the word dungarees
Without resorting to the dictionary definition, I consider dungarees to be a form of work trousers (like jeans) with a built-in bib at the front. Mothers have found them useful for young kids, and salacious females wear them without a bra to flaunt lots of side boob while keeping their nipples covered.
AJ
Those we usually call bib overalls. Usually associated with farmers and some other industries. I wore them when I worked in a pipe mill and found them to be durable and comfortable.
The following link shows the history of the US navy uniform. But to quote a short excerpt...
Dungarees, a denim, bell-bottomed working uniform with a blue over shirt existed in the Navy from 1913 to 1999. At the time, they were well suited to naval environments due to their simple and durable design.
And may I emphasize 'bell-bottomed' damn things were form fitting from waist to knees and you could hide your feet in the bells'
https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=95038
I consider dungarees to be a form of work trousers (like jeans) with a built-in bib at the front.
Dungarees was the name of blue jeans when we first started wearing them in the 1960s. At least in Brooklyn. We didn't call them jeans. They were dungarees.
The only place I have ever used the word dungarees is while in the US Navy as that is what the enlisted work uniform was called at the time. From my understanding it has changed a few times since then and I no longer know the current terminology.
"Utilities" are now the term used, and the one the Marines have used for decades. And the Marines used to use Dungarees (especially until and during WWII), but by the time of Korea, that term had largely been replaced by Utilities.
"Utilities" are now the term used, and the one the Marines have used for decades.
Depends on which uniform you are referring to. The cammo uniform that they would wear for combat is referred to as BDUs (Battle Dress Uniform).
Depends on which uniform you are referring to. The cammo uniform that they would wear for combat is referred to as BDUs (Battle Dress Uniform).
That's the Army, not the Marines. For Marines, it was "Cammies" or "Utilities". Never BDUs.
The cammo uniform that they would wear for combat is referred to as BDUs (Battle Dress Uniform).
In 1970, the non-dress army uniforms were called fatigues. They could be camouflaged or not.
In 1970, the non-dress army uniforms were called fatigues. They could be camouflaged or not.
Once again, an Army designation.
In the Marines in that era, the uniform was normally known as "Sateens", for the fabric that they were made out of. But they were often still called "utilities", as that was the classification of that uniform.
One thing that often strikes me is when I read a story featuring Marines, and the author will fill it with Army terms. And even popular mainstream authors have been known to do this.
W.E.B. Griffith got a lot of flack and had to heavily re-edit several books for this very reason.
no serious poking of sharp sticks, please!)
How about joking poking of blunt sticks. :)
Some of the feature films made from Philip K Dick short stories:
Total Recall
Minority Report
The Adjustment Bureau
Paycheck
Next
AJ
Dungaree was, and still is, a longer lasting tough coarse weave of cloth (usually deep blue in color, but not always) from India that's thought to be older than denim which is a less sturdy bur finer weave in a similar style. Initially any clothing made from the dungaree cloth were called dungarees - most common were trousers, shirts, and overalls. Later the word dungarees morphed to be a common term for the bib and brace style overalls made from the dungaree cloth.
Let me add my 1-1/2 cents here. If you read my stories, you know I ONLY write short stories. I am not a great writer, but Louis L'Amour was and about 10% of his books that I have read are anthologies.
Some of the great authors have collections of short stories. Mark Twain, Robert Heinlein, Asimov, etc.
What is your stance if multiple short stories (say 80kb) add up to more than 400KB, individually they are separate stories, but collectively, they mesh to form one over-all large story?
Would you read them Cfuson, or would you ignore them all and the larger story they create?
What is your stance if multiple short stories (say 80kb) add up to more than 400KB, individually they are separate stories, but collectively, they mesh to form one over-all large story
This is where authors should take the time to make a "Universe", so it is easier to know that multiple stories are connected. I am now doing this, so that people know that a story is not just by itself, but part of a series of stories.
but part of a series of stories.
One point of clarification. That would be a Series, not a Universe.
Perhaps 'Short Story' should be rebranded because it's a bit too close to 'Short Bus'. James Patterson has launched a series of bookshots - allegedly novels without the bits readers normally skip over. I noticed some in the public library and they looked as thin as an anorexic Italian catwalk model.
AJ
allegedly novels without the bits readers normally skip over.
That's one difference I see with my novels and trad published novels I read. There's always so much (needless) detail in the trad ones. So many of them tell you what every blade of grass looks like as the character is running through the field. When I edit my books, I add detail, but only enough to give the reader a flavor of the scene.
So your books taste like grass?
Since paper is made from wood pulp, I would think a book would taste like trees.
I collect the corpses of trees.
They are all covered with tattoos and are all over in my house.
Wasn't the point of Bell bottoms so that trousers could be removed quickly over footwear, or did I dream that...LOL
so that trousers could be removed quickly over footwear
I always thought it had something to do with floating in the water. This is what I found:
the flared out look was introduced for sailors to wear in 1817. The new design was made to allow the young men who washed down the ship's deck to roll their pant legs up above their knees to protect the material.
This modification also improved the time it took to take them off when the sailors needed to abandon ship in a moments notice. The trousers also doubled as a life preserver by knotting the pant legs.
The trousers also doubled as a life preserver by knotting the pant legs.
That's just standard lifesaving stuff today that a lot of people don't know. You go overboard and you're wearing jeans, get out of them, knot the legs, trap air in them and it's a temporary life vest.
knot the legs, trap air in them and it's a temporary life vest.
How do you keep the air from escaping through the big gaping hole at the waist band?
How do you keep the air from escaping through the big gaping hole at the waist band?
how-to-turn-your-pants-into-a-life-preserver-navy-seal-survival-trick
navy-seal-survival-trick
Clickbait bullshit. Everyone in the Navy learns to do that, it is required during training.
Or used to be! I suppose it is possible they just let boots drown now.
Anyway, nothing Navy Seal about it!
Anyway, nothing Navy Seal about it!
It wasn't about Navy Seals, it was about how to use your clothing as an emergency floating device. I don't care if Navy Seals used it or not, that was not the main point. I learned the exact same thing myself during lifeguard training. It's even part of some of the lower swimming certificates here in the Netherlands, we know water.
I was NOT accusing YOU of clickbait, just the link itself being clickbait garbage. I hate websites who do that.
Formula One race car drivers all use this one technique! (Brake pedals!)
Successful authors around the world have one thing in common! (They use words!)
Navy Seals recommend you do this today! (Brush your teeth)
I was accusing YOU of clickbait, just the link itself being clickbait garbage. I hate websites who do that.
Dominions Son asked about how it's done so I gave a link to how it's done. I had to search for one in English. I don't see how that's click bait from me? I have nothing to gain from it.
I don't see how that's click bait from me? I have nothing to gain from it.
I think Reluctant_Sir's comment had a typo, the sentence makes more sense if that is the case.
"I was accusing YOU of clickbait, just the link itself being clickbait garbage. I hate websites who do that."
Should be
"I wasn't accusing YOU of clickbait, just the link itself being clickbait garbage. I hate websites who do that."
"I wasn't accusing YOU of clickbait, just the link itself being clickbait garbage. I hate websites who do that."
Ah, that would explain my confusion about being accused of putting in click bait while I only wanted to provide a link that answered the question. I didn't even think about the link itself being click bait, I just saw that it gave an answer.
I think Reluctant_Sir's comment had a typo, the sentence makes more sense if that is the case.
It could be the American negative cf 'me either' and 'I could care less' ;)
AJ
That was supposed to be NOT you. I was NOT accusing you.
This is why I need editors and proof readers and someone to walk around with me all day and whisper in my ear, "You're an idiot!"
That was supposed to be NOT you. I was NOT accusing you.
No offense taken, I got it after Joy's comment :)
I have a couple longer stories, but most are short stories.
Two of them meet your criteria, and one is only 366 but it's one of my favorites - a humorous stomping of mind control story tropes and cliches
I don't set out to write long or short, I start with where I want the characters to end up, decide on what starts the story then fill in the middle.
Sometimes things go quickly, sometimes they take a little longer.
I, more or less, let the story decide how long it's going to be