Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

But when it's a real thing, it should be realistic. I once had a Lear jet in a story that I found out wouldn't have enough fuel to fly from Calif to the South Pacific. I had to change the jet. Also, I referenced the composition of the jet being steel. A reader told me they're aluminum so I changed steel to metal. Those things need to be correct.

That is why sometimes the fine details can cause a lot of trouble for a writer. Sure they are needed at times like if you have a gun or car or whatever customized a huge amount. The details of the customization would probably be more important.

Another reason for people lightening the loads on those wagons, was due to the fact that many of them were overloaded to start with. I am not sure how much of a factor that was.

Hmm, you seem to be a real internet whiz. And even resort to vulgarity. An American I assume?
I would point out that the only number I attained with the use of a simple calculator. You can do that too, Or find an internet reference. either way it's still a ridiculous weight. Even in a magic titanium wagon. Let's see. titanium weighs 60% of steel so I guess that's lighter than wood eh?
Those pulling contests and demonstrations are for like 10 feet. Lol not translatable to the real world to any degree.
I grew up on a family farm. We still had a horse and mule team when I was a boy. We ran a big horse with a mule because it will gentle the mule and frequently with his larger size he could push the mule to turn before I had to beat the mule to death. Mule skinner eh? There's a reference on the internet I'm sure.
I can't imagine driving 6 of those cusses. It would be a full time job that's for sure. That's a ton of tackle to deal with twice a day.
But, the bottom line is they can't pull TONS very far or for very long no matter what the internet guru may say. They have to be tended y'know? Fed. watered. rested.Abrasions treated. Hoofs require care. All very much dependent on how heavy the load!

I would p

But, the bottom line is they can't pull TONS very far or for very long no matter what the internet guru may say.

From Wikipedia

"They traveled from mines across the Mojave Desert to the nearest railroad spur, 165 miles (275 km) away in Mojave."

"The twenty-mule-team wagons were designed to carry 10 short tons (9 metric tons) of borax ore at a time. The rear wheels measured seven feet (2.1 m) high, with tires made of one-inch-thick (25 mm) iron. The wagon beds measured 16 feet long and were 6 feet deep (4.9 m long, 1.8 m deep); constructed of solid oak, they weighed 7,800 pounds (3,500 kg) empty; when loaded with ore, the total weight of the mule train was 73,200 pounds (33.2 metric tons or 36.6 short tons)."

That sure looks like they could pull VERY HEAVY loads for a VERY LONG distance under VERY HARSH conditions.

Even with only 6 mules as EB said, with the reduced weight of the wagons, they would probably not have any problems pulling one-third the load of the twenty mule teams under better conditions.

Professional teamsters. Paired mules. A fairly short distance. Not really relevant to a family team with tons of gold. plus no one says in the internet guru but i bet they killed those mules on a regular basis

Professional teamsters. Paired mules. A fairly short distance.

165 miles through some of the roughest, hottest, harshest terrain the US has to offer is not a fairly short distance. Assuming similar daily distance as what the settlers managed, it's a week and a half trip.

Not really relevant to a family team with tons of gold.

A typical settler team would b 2 to 6 animals, probably averaging 4 and they would have been in pairs, not single column.

but i bet they killed those mules on a regular basis

They would not have deliberately worked the mules to death. A mule is a horse / donkey cross breed and they are sterile, so they can't be bred directly, making mules more valuable. Mules were expensive, valuable animals, costing around $100 in the late 1800s.

The Death Valley borax was low grade, fetching only $0.08 / pound, barely above the production cost.

A ten ton load of borax was worth $1,600. The 20 mule team to pull it was worth $2,000 They would have gone bankrupt very quickly if they had a significant attrition rate for the mules.

Cost of mules: http://www.oregonpioneers.com/oxen.htm

Value of Borax: http://www.desertusa.com/desert-california/borax.html

Professional teamsters. Paired mules. A fairly short distance. Not really relevant to a family team with tons of gold.

Of course they were professionals. And how did they get that way? From experience. And anyone driving mules or any other animal would be a damned fool if they were not paired. And no matter the TOTAL distance traveled, You can only go so far in a day, so distance isn't a factor.

plus no one says in the internet guru but i bet they killed those mules on a regular basis

"Between 1883 and 1889, the twenty mule teams hauled more than 20 million pounds of borax out of the Valley. During this time, not a single animal was lost, nor did a single wagon break down - " http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/borax-20muleteam.htm

So much for that argument.

Can't claim it was all flat either. Elevation change was almost 2,200 feet. Oh, and there were mountain passes to go through as well.

Why not just admit that you were wrong?

and some used bullock teams

The correct American term is ox or oxen.

Those crossing took months, even years. At every incline they unloaded the wagon and made several trips. Which is beside the point. My point was that you threw that number of gold in that wagon with no idea how much difference it makes. Granted magic wagon and I guess, magic team. It's juat a little too goofy for me.

Those crossing took months, even years.

4 to 6 months by wagon, typically traveling 15 miles a day. Of course they were probably only doing around 2 miles an hour.

http://www.frontiertrails.com/oldwest/oregontrail.htm

This is not just some random website, it's documented history.

As I said professional teamster and team would have little relevance to a family wagon.
I would point out that historical accounts are rife with tales of household goods discarded along the trail because the pioneers found the teams incapable of pulling the TONS they thought they could.

I would point out that historical accounts are rife with tales of household goods discarded along the trail because the pioneers found the teams incapable of pulling the TONS they thought they could.

There are several reasons for this that are not the one you are thinking of.

Some tried to do it with a single pair of animals because the animals were expensive.

However most did start out with larger teams.

However they had to weather attacks from the natives and other events that caused the loss of animals on the team, but they had no way to replace lost animals mid trip so they were forced to lighten the load.

Another reason for abandoned goods was the loss of wagons themselves. Some larger families left with 2 or three wagons or several families traveled together. The wagons occasionally broke down and were nearly impossible to repair mid journey. If you started with two wagons and lost one, you could put both teams on one wagon, but you can still only put so much in one wagon and some of the load would have to be abandoned.

73,200 divide by 20 = 3,660 pounds per mule

3,660 pounds x 6 = 21,960 pounds can be pulled by a team of six mules

Earnest, you are a little off here. From Capt Zapp's post, the wagon was 7,800 pounds, the load 20,000 and
the total train 73,200 pounds. This necessarily includes the weight of the mules and their tack & harness.

To redo it without considering the weight of the mules: 27,800 / 20 = 1390 pounds per mule * 6 = 8,400 pounds, which is still 4 tons. But the Death Valley Borax miners were probably using a much larger team then absolutely necessary to move faster and avoid stressing the individual animals as much. The team was worth more than the load they carried, which was in turn only a little more valuable that what it cost to dig it out of the ground. They couldn't afford to be loosing mules on a regular basis.

They couldn't afford to be loosing mules on a regular basis.

Just to back up your statement:

According to http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/borax-20muleteam.htm "Between 1883 and 1889, the twenty mule teams hauled more than 20 million pounds of borax out of the Valley. During this time, not a single animal was lost, nor did a single wagon break down.

During this time, not a single animal was lost, nor did a single wagon break down.

Not something I was aware of. I actually would have expected some losses over that time. My point was that mules were expensive enough at the time and their operation low enough margin that they couldn't possibly afford to deliberately drive them to death.

That they took good enough care of them to lose not one over six years to injury or disease is quite remarkable.

I would point out that the only number I attained with the use of a simple calculator. You can do that too, Or find an internet reference. either way it's still a ridiculous weight.

Your weight for the gold is more or less correct. Your estimation of what a horse can pull with a wheeled wagon is low by an order of magnitude. Using a 4 wheel wagon, a horse can pull a great deal more than it can simply drag across the ground.

Those pulling contests and demonstrations are for like 10 feet. Lol not translatable to the real world to any degree.

True, but they are also straight sledge drags, not a wheeled wagon.

Oh, and in case you missed it, the top photo in the link I posted on what a horse can pull is a 1940s era photo of four horses pulling a load of logs 6-8 feet high, 12-18 foot wide, and 20-30 feet long. That load likely weighs in at over 10 tons. This is not a contest or a demonstration, but a working logging operation. The likely had to pull that load a good mile or more.

I grew up on a family farm. We still had a horse and mule team when I was a boy.

What were you using them for, plowing? The weight load (for pulling purposes) on a plow team is considerably more than the weight of the plow itself. Soil provides more resistance than air.

But, the bottom line is they can't pull TONS very far or for very long no matter what the internet guru may say.

Sorry, there is documented historical evidence from the 1800s in the US of horses pulling loads up to six tons for 4 to 8 hours a day. This isn't what the internet says, this is what history says.

Sorry Ernest. I haven't finished one of your stories so far and I guess I am not likely to. Thats neither here nor there. But dont take a tone with me. I am sure I read as much as you do. Judging by your fractured fantasies I at least read enough to know bad fiction when I see it. The saving grace to Cmsix use of the titanium wagon was that his stories had a sense of humor. Your stories take themselves way too seriously, and thus fall on their face.
Now I only meant to have some fun with the two tons of gold. But some people just can't take a joke.

Now I only meant to have some fun with the two tons of gold. But some people just can't take a joke.

I've read this whole thread to here. There was a joke hidden in there somewhere? If so it went right over my head.

like I said. Some people just can't take a joke. :-)

None of your comments in this thread had any hint of a joke in them that I could see. Then again I am just a reader.

Ah well. Didn't get it eh? If you get it, its funny. If you don't it isn't. Such is life eh?

like I said. Some people just can't take a joke. :-)

The only thing I have seen that you have posted in this entire thread that even hints at being humorous is the smiley at the end of that comment.

You may be internet whizzes but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. :-)

Internet be damned. I just use that for cites, so you could maybe learn something. The basic information that horses and mules were used for centuries to haul multi ton loads over long distances is something I learned in primary school history classes long before the internet was dreamed of.

The coast to cost distance across the US is over 2000 miles. Nearly all of the major rivers run North to South. How do you imagine that freight was moved across the US before the development of the trans continental railroad? Mostly it was moved by horses and mules.

This is well known and well documented.

I think you need lithium. Bring up the Nazi's so we can close this thread. Godwins' law I think. Hehe

I think you need lithium. Bring up the Nazi's so we can close this thread. Godwins' law I think. Hehe

I think you need a clue.

By the way Godwin's law doesn't say anything about ending the tread or who wins the discussion. All it says is that the probability that certain historical villains will be mentioned increases as an on-line discussion grows longer until it approaches unity. You didn't even get that part right.

Trolls, internet wizards, all we need is a dragon and a warrior and this thread will be high fantasy.

Trolls, internet wizards, all we need is a dragon and a warrior and this thread will be high fantasy.

Now Crumbly, lets not put words in my mouth, please. I don't HATE anyone. And as I said this discussion was about the weight of gold. These jokers brought up all this other stuff to minimize the glaring gold error. I'm surprised you are all so thin skinned. Also a troll is name-calling is it not?

Still through all this thread I am the only one who has actually driven a team. Have hands on experience.

That's a bit different than a google don't you think?
I would also point out that I did not mention Ernest nor the story in my original post. No one had to react to what wasn't said.

And as I said this discussion was about the weight of gold. These jokers brought up all this other stuff to minimize the glaring gold error. I'm surprised you are all so thin skinned.

No, the discussion was about whether or not horses and or mules could pull that amount of gold. That was your original complaint about realism in a story.

Still through all this thread I am the only one who has actually driven a team. Have hands on experience.

So you claim. I for one don't buy it. And even if you have, a plow team is very different from a wagon team.

A wagon provides a significant advantage in pulling a load with human or animal power. It's simple enough to prove that you can pull far more weight in a four wheel cart than it a two wheel cart and more weight in a two wheel cart than in a single wheel wheelbarrow and more weight in a wheelbarrow than you can drag along the ground.

I don't believe that you have driven an actual team because you are claiming things in regards to how much a horse or mule can pull that is contrary to documented history.

Don't feed the trolls.

Just a reminder.