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Nixon aficionado

JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ
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I'm working on a book that could include a scene where the MC is called into a meeting with Nixon in late July, 1973. In the meeting, Nixon will learn that magic is infusing the world and can either be pulled in slowly and shaped to be as benign as possible by the MC and others, or it can flood in all at once decades later as an apocalypse. I think it would be a cool scene, but, if I write it, I'd like for Nixon to respond in a way that fits what we know of him. However, I'm not a Nixon buff and don't want to spend the time to become one. So, was wondering if anyone here is, knows of, or could recommend a way to get in touch with someone with such knowledge?

Replies:   joyR  bk69  awnlee jawking  Mushroom
joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

I'd like for Nixon to respond in a way that fits what we know of him.

Uppermost would be what was in it for him. Then how it could be used to cover his ass etc. Also, can it deal with a couple of reporters?

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

joyR, that's the kind of thing I would like to get ideas about from someone who has read up on Nixon's personality, motivations, etc. Was he as self-focused as I'm reading your comments to suggest? My memory is that he opened up interaction with China and made what had to be a tough call to abandon South Vietnam due to pressure from the press and anti-war protesters in this country. (Maybe he was being told we couldn't hold militarily, but I don't think that was the case. However, not an area where I am deeply knowledgeable.)

So, how would he have addressed a situation where two small but growing groups of people are gaining magical abilities, are hostile to each other to the point of fighting to death, likely cannot be controlled by normal governmental force, and both groups engage in forms of magical slavery (although arguably far more benign one side (my heroes and heroines :))? How does he react if the good side comes to him, convinces him they are working for the best, and that magic is inevitable? What if he doesn't have proof, only evidence that something is happening and recommendations from federal people that a "hidden" task force is needed to investigate and react if necessary? I guess what I'm looking for is an expert who could help set the scene, suggest participants, offer up language, inside jokes, etc. I think it might be a fun scene, but I'd like for it to ring true if I decide to go that direction.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

to abandon South Vietnam due to pressure from the press and anti-war protesters in this country.

Nope. LBJ knew we couldn't win the war but he kept escalating it anyway. If Nixon hadn't pulled out we'd still be fighting there instead of it being a tourist destination today.

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

So, no possibility that South Vietnam could have ended up like South Korea?

bk69 ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

South Vietnam wasn't quite as united as South Korea, the politicians were a little more corrupt, and the situation was different - the UN backed South Korea.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

So, no possibility that South Vietnam could have ended up like South Korea?

I don't think so.

StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

So, no possibility that South Vietnam could have ended up like South Korea?

Not the way it had to end. We were fighting the Vietnam War - so we were supposed to play nice and only fight in those two countries. (We didn't always do that, but that's another story.) They were fighting the War in Indochina, so having a border as a place to stop was ludicrous to them. That couldn't happen in Korea, courtesy of China.

Don't forget that Korea really turned into an open fight between US (UN) forces and China when UN forces had North Korea defeated, while Vietnam never openly did. What a difference 15 years makes in the view on communism.

Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

Do you know that Ho Chi Minh came to us for help to set up a democratic government, but because of our relationship with France we turned him down?

Replies:   bk69
bk69 ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

That's because Ho Chi Minh had been recruited by and worked with the early Green Berets, fighting against Japan.

joyR ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

Ok.

Whilst my comment was somewhat flippant, it is not entirely groundless. A close friend has a relative who was in the diplomatic service and had some interaction with Nixon, not I might add, anything 'close', just the contact one might expect.

I can't comment except to say that whilst flippant, what I posted earlier was on point. As others have stated, Nixon was 'complicated', most people in government are, especially the higher levels.

I would add that your reference to 'federal people' opens a whole new area to consider. Which department knows about 'magic'? How would they react? How far would they go to gain control or at least deny both knowledge of it and access to it, from other departments, let alone other governments?

Manny stories that involve magic also address the way government reacts to it. Outcomes vary but very few don't end in conflict or a cluster-fuck, occasionally of epic proportions.

So, whilst how Nixon might have responded might seem important, you need to spend a lot more time considering how a government department might act. Given past actions, not well, not intelligently, and most certainly with utterly no regard to the feelings or welfare of any magic users.

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@joyR

I've got various federal agencies involved already, though they don't know it. They investigating a spate of killings and few other matters, but with no awareness of magic. In general, I project a few good people, a few self-interested glory hogs, some incompetents and, oh yeah, some who are attracted to one or the other sides.

As for the agencies themselves, that's easy. Stamp out all other claimants to power. That's the fundamental priority of government, maintain control over power. All legal functions ultimately are supported by the resort to the legal use of force, up to and including deadly force. So, as magical power becomes more widespread and evident, I would expect governmental efforts to eliminate it if possible, control it if not. Many "emergence of super powers" stories use this plot line, mostly because it makes sense.

bk69 ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

Here's a simple test: figure out how JFK would've reacted (leaving out the possibility of using it to boost his sex life).

Nixon and JFK were very similar, and were friends.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  Mushroom
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@bk69

Nixon and JFK were very similar, and were friends.

Nixon was very close to Martin Luther King Jr. as well. We all know Nixon from Watergate, but he wasn't even involved with the break-in. His downfall was the cover-up once he became aware of it.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Switch Blayde

The break-in was supposedly done on his orders. That's supposedly why he tried to cover it up.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  bk69  Mushroom
Switch Blayde ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

The break-in was supposedly done on his orders. That's supposedly why he tried to cover it up.

Not what I remember.

bk69 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

Well, he wanted people to find out who the Democrats were really planning to run in the next election, since the idea of them actually nominating a clown like Carter was laughable. He wasn't totally specific about how the information should be acquired, and... well, the rest was history.

Mushroom ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

The break-in was supposedly done on his orders. That's supposedly why he tried to cover it up.

Nope, quite the opposite.

His tapes are public, and when he was first told about the break in, he wondered who was stupid enough to do such a thing, and maybe it was even a "false flag" to try and throw dirt on him.

His mistake when he discovered it was a rogue element in the party was in trying to cover it up. Not a single one of the investigators or prosecutor ever believed he had any knowledge of it until after it happened.

The man behind the break in (E. Howard Hunt) never even met Nixon, he was a consultant hired by one of the members of his staff. And the experts that have looked into everything for decades can not find anybody above Hunt in the chain of events. Even his own boss did not know about it.

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@Mushroom

And my thought had been approval and support for a "hidden" federal agency to monitor and respond to developments. It's possible that his Watergate experience would make this unlikely. On the other hand, he may have been independent enough and enough of an abstract, analytical thinker to separate the two.

Mushroom ๐Ÿšซ

@bk69

Nixon and JFK were very similar, and were friends.

This is something most completely miss.

JFK and Nixon were very close, and campaigned for each other. Nixon was a Liberal Republican, JFK was a Conservative Democrat.

awnlee jawking ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

I'd like for Nixon to respond in a way that fits what we know of him.

Nixon's speciality was diplomatic solutions, ie compromise and appeasement.

recommend a way to get in touch with someone with such knowledge?

Hold a seance?

AJ

Mushroom ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

Want to understand Nixon a bit, here is a place to start.

First of all, he was a Lawyer, and a Quaker. He served in supply in the Navy during WWII, a Conscientious Objector who still volunteered to serve (as many did) in a non-combat status.

He was also a shrewd poker player, and made a lot of money during the war playing poker. He could also play 5 instruments (and also composed music), and had a keen analytical mind.

In 1938, he and several partners started an orange juice business. It failed after 18 months, yet he continued to work and within 3 years paid back all of his investors (even though he was in no way required to do so).

A staunch anti-communist, along with JFK he was a string believer in Senator Joseph MacCartney as well as key members of his staff. A lifelong friendship between Nixon and JFK started when they shared adjoining offices when they each joined as members of Congress.

He is also often forgotten for creating the EPA, spending years trying to end Vietnam and finally doing so after the Paris Peace Accords. And was behind many of the important early nuclear treaties with the Soviets. Including the Test Limitation Treaty, Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, SALT I, and started SALT II (which became START).

He was also behind the Clean Air Act, and founding OSHA. He even tried to create a federal Health Insurance program, which would have expanded Medicare to all of low income. Created the first Federal Affirmative Action program, the ERA, and programs to help minorities start businesses and get preference in winning Federal contracts.

And as much as he hated Communism, he is the one that helped open the door to formal relations with China.

He was a complex man, and very few will ever give you a real idea of what he was like. But personality wise, he was a staunch American, anti-Communist, and skeptic. But also very pragmatic, who tended to when possible work with others whenever possible, but also go off on his own when that was not coming.

Replies:   JoeBobMack
JoeBobMack ๐Ÿšซ

@Mushroom

Thanks, Mushroom. That's helpful. Skepticism is a good point. Lawyers average the 90th percentile - they doubt everything and everyone.

Replies:   Mushroom
Mushroom ๐Ÿšซ

@JoeBobMack

Thanks, Mushroom. That's helpful. Skepticism is a good point. Lawyers average the 90th percentile - they doubt everything and everyone.

One of the things that must be remembered is that it was from 1968 to 1972 that the political parties sharply changed. Mostly the Democrats, which went from Arch-Conservative to Arch-Liberal. This had the effect of then making the more Liberal of the two parties the more Conservative one, and shifts in members and backers soon echoed that and transformed it into a fully Conservative Party (but only in relationship between the two).

Even Stephen Colbert has commented that he was the "Last Liberal President", and Democratic Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan said after he died "The most liberal democratic administration in the second half of the 20th century was Richard Nixon's first term. Between 1968 and 1972, Mr. Nixon expanded welfare benefits, fortified civil rights for women and minorities, and created the EPA."

But as is common, most who talk about him were not even alive when he was President, and are looking back at him through glasses tinted with current politics. A while back I shocked my Aunt when I told her that Nixon was a Liberal Republican, and John Glenn was a Conservative Democrat (as was JFK). She had no idea such things even existed.

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