The story Beth, by Bronte Follower, is an example of a story that uses dates at the beginning of each chapter. That one happens to be a diary format, but I've seen other where the date appears to be there just as an aide to reading.
Pros and cons about using dates as an author? as a reader? As a reader, I find the dates helpful.
I'm a reader. I find this useful and sometimes even necessary. With flashbacks it becomes unreadable if, at a minimum, the flashbacks are not dated. It's also very helpful if in consecutive chapters the same day/time is used but at a different location and characters. Dating the chapters or paragraphs points out to the reader that they happen at the same time. As a reader I see definite benefits but when dates are not needed to follow the time line they should generally be avoided.
If you don't include the year in the date, but you include references to the day of the week, you will (for certain types of readers) date the reference. (The calendar repeats on a 28 year cycle. For any given story, at least within the last couple hundred years, the details of the setting should be enough to determine the year within a couple decades so that plus the cycle means the year is known.)
If the days of the week aren't carefully tracked with the dates given, observant readers will notice them not being in sync.
But date stamp, especially with a time stamp, is useful in a thriller - when a lot of action occurs in a short period of time you know that a) this isn't a Dickens story and b) readers can lose track and think more time has passed.
If the days of the week aren't carefully tracked with the dates given, observant readers will notice them not being in sync.
Seen that a few times. There are various internet sites that make the DoW easy to check for any given date.
I dare say some even go back more than 6,000 years, before God created everything ;-)
AJ
I used dates when starting each chapter for two of my stories over on FS, mainly because my chapters don't each cover the same span of time, try as I might. It was helpful to me while writing to keep events straight in my head; bonus points if it helps the reader...
(personally, I used timeanddate.com...)
If you don't include the year in the date, but you include references to the day of the week, you will (for certain types of readers) date the reference. (The calendar repeats on a 28 year cycle. For any given story, at least within the last couple hundred years, the details of the setting should be enough to determine the year within a couple decades so that plus the cycle means the year is known.)
It's not that simple. The calendar repeats in 28 year cycles for leap years. For non-leap years it repeats in 28 years, then it repeats on the 6th, 17th & 28th year of the cycle and again 6 years later. So for 2021 the cycle is 1993, 1999, 2010, 2021, 2027.
While in the past I have written some stories where dates feature in the chapter title or the start of a chapter, I now find it more convenient in telling the story not to do so. However, there are times within the narrative I will say things like 'Two weeks later' or 'the next week' etc.
I find it to be critical if there is a deadline in the story.
An example might be the story revolves around obtaining the rent payment before the 1st of the month.
It is also handy if you plan to jump ahead a few days or weeks and summarize what has happened. Many readers grow frustrated when people skip ahead if they feel the author left out critical details.
"Two weeks later..." is an easy way to establish that time passed and now the story is going to tell you what has transgressed.
In my outline of long stories I almost always keep track of the dates but also what chapters apply to what dates.
any readers grow frustrated when people skip ahead if they feel the author left out critical details.
The author shouldn't skip ahead if there are critical events in what was skipped.
"Two weeks later..." is an easy way to establish that time passed and now the story is going to tell you what has transgressed.
That's not the way I would read that.
I would interpret that as nothing interesting happened for two weeks and here's what happened after that.
after seeing "Two weeks later..." I would not at all expect a summary of what happened in the two weeks that were just skipped over.
Many readers grow frustrated when people skip ahead if they feel the author left out critical details.
"Two weeks later...
Another way of using Seinfeld's "yada, yada, yada". Anytime they use it, you wonder how much they've avoiding including (i.e. it seems more like they purposefully avoiding revealing something vital to the story, rather than they're just in a hurry to get to the next plot point).
Talking about dates in stories:
There's a useful site for authors to see what important events happened in a certain year or on a certain day: https://www.onthisday.com/dates-by-year.php.
Pros and cons about using dates
"In addition to tasting great, dates contain protein, vitamins, and minerals."
On the other hand, it can be expensive to take others out on a date.
If the dates are present but in the same colour as the background, are they blind dates?
AJ
blind dates
Not unless they are visually impaired. If they are from Venice, they are Venetian Blinds.
And if they're carrying scales it's blind justice.
So if you carry a halal fish into court, you'll get a fair trial?
AJ
If you can catch a fish using a shotgun, sure. Otherwise people will judge you harshly.
If the dates are present but in the same colour as the background, are they blind dates?
Nope. Then, they're invisi-dates. Or, if the girl is wearing a sexy top, then they're transparent dates.
On the other hand, it can be expensive to take others out on a date.
What's more, they're often slippery and can cause your date to slip and fall, resulting in potentially expensive medical bills (and a guarantee of no followup dates).
Myself, I almost never use an actual "date", and at the same time in at least one story I do.
Case in point, in "Country Boy", when the character was in the military. He would typically get "96 hour passes" (4 days off) at the time of major holidays. I would then look at an actual calendar for that year, and see what day that would have fallen on. If say the 4th of July was on a Sunday, then when relating the Sunday events I would talk about them seeing fireworks. Or if it was a Veteran's Day (also a fixed day) was on Tuesday, I might adjust the 4 days off to be Saturday through Tuesday, instead of the more conventional Friday through Monday. Because the military would also do that.
Specifically, in one story a character turned on the TV on New Year Day to watch the annual Rose Parade, but was puzzled and upset because it was not on TV. And as I myself have personal knowledge and checking the calendar the 1st of January was a Sunday that year. And in the event that happens they hold the parade on the 2nd, Monday.
So most times if I mention the year and a "day of the week", you can generally look at a calendar and see I am actually following it correctly. Even if I almost never overtly say what the actual date is.
And I do that because that is how most people think. I doubt most think of today as "8 December", it is simply "Tuesday". And at the end of the week when asked about what all had happened, we would go "On Tuesday I read a good story". We would not go "On the 8th I read a good story".
And I do that because that is how most people think. I doubt most think of today as "8 December", it is simply "Tuesday". And at the end of the week when asked about what all had happened, we would go "On Tuesday I read a good story". We would not go "On the 8th I read a good story".
For most things you are correct, however, I do think people do associate the actual date with major events.
Telling the story to some one else, years later, no one is going to say:
"It was a Tuesday when my life started to fall apart."
or
"It was a Wednesday when I got married"
They will attach a specific date to those events.
"It was a Wednesday when I got married"
They will attach a specific date to those events.
Not sure about others, but I sure do. I was married on a Saturday.
But in many of those cases, I have to question if they remember a specific date either. I remember getting arrested once on a Friday night, but damned if I can tell you the date, just the month and year.
"It was a Wednesday when I got married"
That means you are Nes, because that is the day nes is Wed.
"Wed Nes day".
There is another theory, that it means Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). Not sure how you can wed an entertainment system. Perhaps sexual activity can be considered entertainment, then the honeymoon is an entertainment system. And you get wed to have a honeymoon.
Telling the story to some one else, years later, no one is going to say:
"It was a Tuesday when my life started to fall apart."
They will attach a specific date to those events.
Except nothing dates a story more than tying it to a specific time frame. The best, most long-lasting stories, occur in a nebulous time period, an ever-present 'now'.
"It was a Wednesday when I got married"
They will attach a specific date to those events.
"It was a beautiful April wedding." There's really no reason to specify an exact date (and thus dating the story).
The best, most long-lasting stories, occur in a nebulous time period, an ever-present 'now'.
The writers and publishers of Historical fiction would like to disagree with you.
I can't agree with you on this.
No story can long exist in a nebulous now, because the basic scenery and background would have to constantly be updated.
The writers and publishers of Historical fiction would like to disagree with you.
Historical fiction is an exception (like Westerns), since the story is set in a specific, high-romanticized segment of history, whereas for most stories, they're focused on the characters, rather than a specific time period, thus each moment is "now". Once it gets so old that the language sounds dated, it'll already have been long constrained to the Premiere firewall.
For me, atmosphere is more about place than time. You describe the details of specific locations, not what building was new on which specific date as the characters 'just happen' to traipse in front of it.
For me, atmosphere is more about place than time.
For me, atmosphere necessarily involves both.
You describe the details of specific locations, not what building was new on which specific date as the characters 'just happen' to traipse in front of it.
What I'm referring to as scenery includes props, language, and other incidentals that are unavoidable in any story.
Personally I find a story purporting to be set in a nebulous ever-present now, filled with the language and technology of the 1950s to be jarring.
But if you clearly set the story in the 1950's then it's not jarring.
And it's impossible not to date a story this way unless it's set in a preindustrial time frame or is distant future science fiction.
If the MC is making phone calls while he is out and about, that puts the story in the age of the cell phone. If he only ever makes calls from home or office that puts the story before the4 availability of cell phones.
Does the MC have a laptop computer? Are there no laptop computers anywhere in the story?
If you try to avoid all these kinds of things in your story it will, in my opinion, necessarily come out flat and uninteresting.
Does the MC have a laptop computer? Are there no laptop computers anywhere in the story?
That's a good point, but there's a big difference between referring to a generic laptop, and listing the latest best-selling brand. Listing a laptop is enough, while listing the specific brand will quickly date a story, once that particular brand begins to lose steam.
ALL stories lose relevance over time, that's given and assumed. But when I and others refer to 'dating' stories, we're referring to 'prematurely' dating it. If a particular writing style goes out of fashion, it's very different than if they used last words current 'buzzword' (like "groovy", "neato" or "tubular, bro!").
The idea isn't that NO story will EVER become dated, it's avoiding those items which are likely to date it within only a couple of years, keeping it from being properly appreciated only a few years on.
Then again, if a story is set in a specific period, then readers will expect for certain things to be different. That's no longer being 'dated' (i.e. the story's context seemingly being out of place) as those details are fitting the circumstances of the particular story.
But for those stories which are NOT set in a specific time and place, there's no reason to firmly establish one, say by referencing an iPhone 4 or a Panasonic Boombox, when "phone" or "radio" works just as well.
But for those stories which are NOT set in a specific time and place,
All stories are ultimately set in a specific time and place, even if the author tries to avoid letting the reader know what that time and place is.
Personally I think most stories done that way are worse off for it.
Personally I think most stories done that way are worse off for it.
I think you should grant an exception for stories which are outside our frame of reference eg Space Operas and High Fantasies.
AJ
I think you should grant an exception for stories which are outside our frame of reference eg Space Operas and High Fantasies.
I do look at far future science fiction and Fantasy(not just High Fantasy but Sword and Sorcery (think Conan the Barbarian) and other Fantasy types as well) differently.
There the author isn't really hiding the time period from the reader, trying to put it in CW's nebulous ever present now, but are just less precise about it.
I do look at far future science fiction and Fantasy(not just High Fantasy but Sword and Sorcery (think Conan the Barbarian) and other Fantasy types as well) differently.
And what about traditional Fantasy, where magical things happen in our normal, everyday lives, say for instance, when a young girl 'magically' teleports by entering imaginary 'holes' between places, or someone 'speaks' telepathically with others. Why do we (especially on SOL) always revert to either LOTRs or D&D? Whatever happened to 'Magical Realism'?
And what about traditional Fantasy, where magical things happen in our normal, everyday lives, say for instance, when a young girl 'magically' teleports by entering imaginary 'holes' between places, or someone 'speaks' telepathically with others.
These days what I see in the dead tree publishing world, magic in a modern setting generally gets billed as Paranormal, not Fantasy.
(Low?) Fantasy would more be a medieval setting with lots of magic, but humans as the only sentient bipeds.
Why do we (especially on SOL) always revert to either LOTRs or D&D? Whatever happened to 'Magical Realism'?
Because we only have a tag for High Fantasy. There aren't tags for other Fantasy sub-genres. SOL used to have a generic Fantasy tag but that constantly got miss used as "sexual fantasy" having nothing to do with magic or literary fantasy genres.
In checking under Category Search under
Level of Consent - there is the choice of { Magic }
Story Types - there is the choice of { Fairy Tale }
Science Fiction - there is the choice of { Extra Sensory Perception }
Extrasensory perception or ESP, also called sixth sense, includes claimed reception of information not gained through the recognized physical senses, but sensed with the mind. Psychic abilities such as intuition, telepathy, psychometry, clairvoyance, and their trans-temporal operation as precognition or retrocognition.
There are some tags that can be used.
iPhone 4 or a Panasonic Boombox, when "phone" or "radio" works just as well.
...which would be 'never'.
Being one of the mindless sheep tethered to inferior Apple products says more about a character than that he has 'a phone'. Being an obnoxious asshat imposing his (lack of) taste in music on everyone nearby also defines a character in ways carrying 'a radio' doesn't.
...which would be 'never'.
Being one of the mindless sheep tethered to inferior Apple products says more about a character than that he has 'a phone'.
In that case the use of 'iPhone' instead of 'phone' is a valid reason because you want to say something specific about the character by using 'iPhone'. If there's no need for that using 'phone' is the better choice.
There will still be a lot of readers that don't get it because they don't automatically connect 'iPhone' to a 'mindless sheep tethered to inferior Apple products'. The specifics of an iPhone and an iPhone user are not that well known around the world as they are in the US.
'mindless sheep tethered to inferior Apple products'
A House of Commons sub-committee on waste singled out electrical products, and named Apple specifically, for short life expectancies.
AJ
A House of Commons sub-committee on waste singled out electrical products, and named Apple specifically, for short life expectancies.
That said, I still have a 2015 MacBook Pro which is still going strong, while I've had two 2019 products both die within a year (i got one fixed, when both Motherboards (processor and graphic) died, yet the repaired machine NEVER worked nearly as well, as the other was a late 2018 iPad Pro that had just ended it's one-year support period, and NO ONE wanted to touch it!
Apple isn't just about 'short life cycles', instead their more into 'controlling' the user experience, so that there are fewer things to go wrong. Thus they often suffer from 'cataclysmic' events (complete and utter failure), rather than one thing breaking after another, as with many cheaper devices compiled from various component parts.
But Steve Jobs, an Engineer, was all about building 'quality computers', while Tim Cook is a 'marketing genius' through and through, who doesn't give a damn whether a product either works or lasts, as long as it sells like hotcakes.
That said, I still have a 2015 MacBook Pro which is still going strong
I just replaced a Win7 desktop that I bought in 2009
That said, I still have a 2015 MacBook Pro which is still going strong
Part of that is that by 2010 we'd pretty much hit the upper limit on increasing clock speeds on CPU's, since then it has been about multi-threading code and running things concurrently on multiple processor cores. So long as you're not doing anything that needs an army of processor cores, you can do your "everyday computer tasks" on an older processor and not realize you're on an older system.
Because when it comes to single core performance, a processor from 2020 is only going to be slightly better than one from 2015, because their clock speeds are nearly identical(but other design changes then come into play). And multi-threading your code can only increase your performance so much, especially when it comes to sloppy code. Procedural (single-thread) is a lot more forgiving to code for than multi-threaded code is.
So even a program coded to maximize the use of 64+ cores is still going to ultimately have some form of bottleneck that means single-core performance remains a consideration for them to design for. (But doesn't mean it'll be particularly quick at doing its more advanced tasks on a low core count/older CPU; but you'd at least be able to run the software even if you can't viably do much with it--unlike going from a 2008 build machine and trying to run that software on one from 1998)
That's a good point, but there's a big difference between referring to a generic laptop, and listing the latest best-selling brand. Listing a laptop is enough, while listing the specific brand will quickly date a story, once that particular brand begins to lose steam.
Depends on the branding. If they're talking about using a Dell and don't get descriptive beyond that, you're basically covering everything from the mid-1990's to present day.
Dell used to be a decent quality brand. Then they switched to cheaper, poor quality components and became a poor quality brand. These days I have no idea. So just mentioning Dell without a date isn't informative.
AJ
Dell used to be a decent quality brand. Then they switched to cheaper, poor quality components and became a poor quality brand. These days I have no idea. So just mentioning Dell without a date isn't informative.
That was the point in the context of that statement. Mentioning a character is using a new Dell branded laptop basically "dates" the character at any point in time in the past 25-ish years.
While saying a character was using a Compaq Laptop dates the laptop as being from the 90's or 2000's and its merger with HP. Of course, in that context, people didn't just stop using Compaq branded computers because it merged with HP. There probably still are people using Compaq laptops right now, and in that context, it can suggest things about the character as well, even if the reference itself is going to "age out" as time moves on.
That was the point in the context of that statement. Mentioning a character is using a new Dell branded laptop basically "dates" the character at any point in time in the past 25-ish years.
While saying a character was using a Compaq Laptop dates the laptop as being from the 90's or very early 2000's and its merger with HP. Of course, in that context, people didn't just stop using Compaq branded computers because it merged with HP. There probably still are people using Compaq laptops right now, and in that context, it can suggest things about the character as well, even if the reference itself is going to "age out" as time moves on.
If you want to use these examples as an alternative way of marking time periods for a story you're doing it completely wrong. I'm an IT guy and I would have to look up exactly what years the machines relate to. A computer noob wouldn't even get the reference from a specific brand to a certain period so wouldn't even think about looking it up. If you have to look it up it's the wrong way anyway.
There probably still are people using Compaq laptops right now, and in that context, it can suggest things about the character as well, even if the reference itself is going to "age out" as time moves on.
If you want to use these examples as an alternative way of marking time periods for a story you're doing it completely wrong. I'm an IT guy and I would have to look up exactly what years the machines relate to. A computer noob wouldn't even get the reference from a specific brand to a certain period so wouldn't even think about looking it up. If you have to look it up it's the wrong way anyway.
Which would be how the the reference itself would "age out" or otherwise "date itself" because the reader needs to run to wikipedia or other reference sources to even stand a chance of understanding what you're getting at rather than "just knowing."
I'd still say that at this moment in time giving a character "a Dell Laptop" is relatively safe in terms of not dating the content.. At least not anymore so than simply having the character be using a laptop in the first place.
But the Compaq example? Some people would currently be able to maybe understand the reference, but its not going to age well unless more context is given. However, at the point where "more context is needed/given" there isn't much need to reference a specific brand in the first place.
hmm. I wonder how many people will understand references to my old Commodore 64. Or my Amiga 512.
Yep. I skipped that and went C64 from the PET.
But I think my old SPARCstation is my oldest machine I have on hand. The C64 was destroyed in a fire.
hmm. I wonder how many people will understand references to my old Commodore 64. Or my Amiga 512.
You mean Amiga 500? Amiga 1000, Amiga 500 or 2000, Amiga 3000, CDTV or Amiga 600, or Amiga 4000.
There was no Amiga 512. And Jay Miner is one of the least appreciated Technology people out there, even though his influence was immense, even before the Amiga.
It should also be noted that oddly enough. The Commodore 64 will likely endure in culture far better than any of the Amiga computers will, already has. The Amiga never moved anywhere near the number of units that were sold for the Commodore 64.
The bankers running Commodore by the end of the 1980's didn't understand why they needed to prioritize technology research for the Amiga when the C64 was still selling well.
The Commodore 64 will likely endure in culture far better than any of the Amiga computers will, already has.
Depends on the subculture... Amigas were still being used in video processing up until not too long ago.
But yeah, no other computer model has sold as many units. Certainly not with all the same board/processor/hardware combination. Probably never will.
Depends on the subculture... Amigas were still being used in video processing up until not too long ago.
I was speaking of culture in general. For Game Developers from that time period, and people who did Video Editing, the Amiga will endure in memory for a fair bit of time.
But they're pretty niche all things considered.
People are more likely to at least know of the Commodore 64. The Amiga on the other hand? Chances are they've never heard of it, even if they know of things which were created for/on the Amiga. (From Lemmings, to Worms on the gaming side, to Max Headroom, Babylon 5, and SeaQuest DSV on the video side)
yeah. You are correct. It was a 500. But then I got a newer one. A 1200?. A long time ago in a memory far, far away.
I started with an Atari 400, gave it to my godson and bought an Atari 800. Played a lot of games on it.
I'm sure everybody realizes that almost all products, with the possible exception of fuzzy slippers, contain computer chips. Any company which wanted to (which includes almost all of 'em) could, and probably have, inserted code to make the product fail after a given time period or number of uses. It's only a coincidence that that time period is generally just after the warranty runs out.
I think that falls under the category of "planned obsolescence".
Apple deliberately made their iPhone batteries almost impossible to change, and inserted code to slow the phone down after a couple of years commensurate with the battery's hysteresis.
They were forced to change their policy after public shaming.
AJ
The story Beth, by Bronte Follower, is an example of a story that uses dates at the beginning of each chapter. That one happens to be a diary format, but I've seen other where the date appears to be there just as an aide to reading.
Pros and cons about using dates as an author? as a reader? As a reader, I find the dates helpful.
There is published fiction (typically military or harder sci-fi types) where dates and places are a common feature of the story. Not all military fiction does this, and from memory, the ones most likely to start using dates would be the "franchise" type settings like the Battletech novels for example. Where you could have multiple authors writing multiple stories taking place at the same time just in different parts of the larger setting. So placing dates on those stories/chapters can help the reader sort out what is going on when. Although even while that franchise could be inconsistent on use of dates, they generally would at least indicate a place.
It can turn up in other fiction as well, such as scifi stories that span a lot of time, or as previously mentioned, in a story where a "deadline" is approaching, or reader knowledge of timing is otherwise important.
Otherwise, Date/Time/Place stamps are probably only really useful for a story that is going to be jumping around in time and/or space(/places). Such as the trend of writing stories in non-chronological order, or simply because you have a large ensemble of characters that can be wildly dispersed geographically.
In the Swarm Cycle stories, most of the authors in the first dozen or so agreed to NOT date the stories by year. It's always 'just a bit in the future'. That being said, one of my stories is VERY dated due to all of the specific references I made.
My most loved story with my absolute worst score. Sigh.
That being said, one of my stories is VERY dated due to all of the specific references I made.
My $0.02: You can't write a story worth reading without doing that to some extent.
Any story truly written to fall into CW's indistinguishable, ever-present now will necessarily come out flat and uninteresting.
Every time the date changes, I have a date at the top of the scene in my story. However, I'm writing a do-over/coming-of-age story with a day-to-day plot. That sort of story is, by definition, firmly rooted in a very specific time or place. There are other ways I could handle it, but rooting the scenes in time with dates works well for what I'm doing.
In a story that's less connected to a specific time progression it'd be easy to make different choices. However, unless you're writing a story that's intentionally disconnected from the flow of time, I imagine it'd be necessary, as a writer, to know how the times fit together, so you don't have little continuity glitches as to when things happened.
Yep. Plus, in stories like Lazlo Zalezac's Emend by Eclipse, using specific dates as metainformation (giving events of the specific day) can make for very effective impact.
Ditto, say, Michael Loucks' stories, where there are often connections back to things that happened on a specific day (plane crashes and sporting events, most notably, but also many other things).
I try not to hit too hard on 'random events' because my characters aren't concerned with them. Reagan being elected is noteworthy, say (my story starts in 1980), or John Lennon's death. Many other things are 'off the radar' of my main characters or too disconnected from the plot to warrant discussion - but the story needs to exist within the world, and if something big happens and I miss them reacting to it, that's probably an error.
But, 'something big' is relative. My main character might not care who wins the World Series (unless he's betting on it! but he only remembers a few select games). If he doesn't care, it's probably not going in the story, unless someone around him cares.
Many of my stories have day/dates as chapter headings. I think it helps the reader to follow the story - it certainly helps me to write it.
Having said that, when I read stories of this type, I often forget what date it is anyway!
Having said that, when I read stories of this type, I often forget what date it is anyway!
Using dates at the start of each chapter is problematic on sites such as this, where stories are published over days, weeks or years - unless time gaps are also signified another way (eg, "after 2 weeks, I decided that..."). Many readers will be following many stories at once, and will be unlikely to be accurately tracking the latest date in each story, so won't notice jumps.
