https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54842643
So what happens to pets and farm animals when they become a carrier for coronovirus? If that report is to be believed, that potential just reared its head in Denmark.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54842643
So what happens to pets and farm animals when they become a carrier for coronovirus? If that report is to be believed, that potential just reared its head in Denmark.
It's the first major outbreak amongst animals, but at the start of the year, A chihuahua I think it was, was diagnosed and put down after having contracted Covid from it's owner in Italy and a zoo in Europe reported that it's lions had contracted Covid from one of their handlers.
It's been going on for a while, but the general rate of cross species transference has been (until now) quite low. The thing about the minks is the shear number and the fact that the strain carried by the minks is a mutated strain from humans. The worry is, that the strain might mutate again and jump to other animals, and like the report says, if it mutates any more, then it renders potential vaccines completely useless.
Governments have been playing down cross species transference in-case it causes panic, the result of which will see domestic pets dumped in the street by worried owners. If that happens, then it would make the situation worse as potentially all those (now) stray pets could become carriers and because they are partly domesticated, they will naturally drift towards other humans in the hope of being 'adopted' and taking any virus load with them....
You mean like a potential origin for Spanish flu?
The Deadliest Virus Ever Known
Or H1N1?
Transmission of Avian Influenza A Viruses Between Animals and People
It's not pretty being me
Just try it and you'll see
It's harder than you think
Being a gorgeous mink
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-more-tigers-and-lions-test-positive-at-us-zoo-11977342
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2020/04/tiger-coronavirus-covid19-positive-test-bronx-zoo/
https://khn.org/news/lions-and-tigers-and-anteaters-u-s-scientists-scan-the-menagerie-for-covid/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7337683/
https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/mmr.2020.11037
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200724/Pets-Show-Antibodies-to-SARS-CoV-2-in-Italian-Study.aspx
Just some random reports about it out there in the internet. Pay attention to the dates, reports have been coming in since the start, but without proper scientific analysis, most went properly un-diagnosed (Tin foil hat time- I personally believe that most were deliberately quashed to limit/stop panic)
To be fair, we got it from animals, so it stands to reason that we can give it back to the fuckers. The interesting thing about it, is scientists are now properly studying the virus and following the mutations. From the mutations they have now agreed that you can get it multiple times and unfortunately, the infections stack. Each subsequent infection reduces the body's ability to fight the disease. It might not get you the first time, but the second time? Who want's to take that risk? Testing on animals has revealed the existence of several strains, notifying the researches that some animals have had the disease multiple times. Which is in line with human antibody research.
Unfortunately I think this is a disease we are just going to have to live with now, like the flu virus. We had a chance to contain it, but self entitlement and the belief by many that civil liberties trump everything, meant that we never really had a realistic chance of stopping it. To do so would have needed the instant quarantining of every country and the instant halt to all air travel (freight included) and sea travel (freight included).
That was never going to happen due to the damage to every country's economy, and the social unrest it would have caused. Ironically it's looking like the damage for NOT doing so is going to be more damaging in the long run. Winter, (when most deaths are going to happen) has not yet arrived, so it will be interesting to see what happens over christmas and the following months.
To do so would have needed the instant quarantining of every country and the instant halt to all air travel (freight included) and sea travel (freight included).
Even then, there would be no guarantee it could have been stopped.
Even then, there would be no guarantee it could have been stopped.
That is true, but evidence from other islands with stricter and more determined governments have proved it's possible. New Zealand, for instance, had a poor start then stopped mucking about and treated the situation properly/seriously. It's managed to become covid free twice now I think. Each subsequent re-infection has been from infected individuals bringing it into the country and not abiding by quarantine rules.
The early attitude here was a constructive scepticism. Say, it's probably not that bad on itself, but let's take it as overblown civil defense excercise with maximum realism.
And in our small and extremely open ex-soviet north European country of two million, housing among other transit streams the largest regional airport, and with over 30% of high school seniors planning to study abroad (also interestingly, only 3% admitted they didn't plan to attempt college level education at all) the initial first wave felt steep but wasn't at all that bad in hindsight; daily cases topped at 48 by the end of February I think.
Subsequent lockdown with was rather soft in comparison to some, although schools went totally virtual within a week, seemed to be an apparent success (and a bunch of real poor kids got their first computer out of it). We reopened in May with all remaining cases traced and were nearly COVID-19 free trough June and July, with the few dribbling cases either fresh imports or first generation infection from outside contact.
Then, Europe re-opened inner borders in August and the second wave was already clearly in sight even before school year started, with in-person classes. And well ahead of the COVID-19 the mind virus of quarantine protests had swept certain vulnerable populations, through information networks mostly from USA directly, but also in part from USA through Germany, significantly complicating matters. Call it severe case of TDS, it's justified to do so, but I will indeed blame Trump for at least a part of COVID-19 deaths occurring here this coming winter. With sensible management in USA I believe there was a chance to if not completely contain this during the summer, then at least control much more tightly.
Now we are gradually slipping into second lockdown (including mandatory masks since a week ago) with is probably long overdue. As of this last Friday We had 357 new cases and 7 deaths; fourteen days rolling cumulative shoot over 3000 and active cases total over 5500. Tracing is strained and incomplete, but somehow we still are one of "best" countries in Europe with this, but behind Estonia, Finland and Norway.
Well, a big part of this current explosion was indeed a school case. 39 teachers of one of largest and prestigious inner city high schools infected from a single source during a traditional "educational" start-of-the-year teachers' bus tour (with shouldn't have happened if you ask me), and school board inexplicably refused to shut it all down when this was discovered. I don't have exact data but believe the known tails from this one case is well over a thousand by now, and it's long went untraceable.
And in our small and extremely open ex-soviet north European country of two million
In the UK we're constantly being told we're at the forefront at developing covid vaccines, and one might be available for the highest risk candidates by the end of the year. But what's happening with the Russian vaccine - I thought they started treating people at least a couple of months ago?
AJ
But what's happening with the Russian vaccine - I thought they started treating people at least a couple of months ago?
Russia has a different philosophy about risk than the western world.
Western vaccine development - "Well, so far this seems to work in a petri dish, let's try it in lab rats, move up gradually to primates, and if there's no ill effects, we can be testing in humans in a year and a half."
Russian vaccine development - "We've isolated a live virus. We've got several colonies, and damaged each differently. Let's round up some people to inject, and see which version is effective at providing immunity."
The Russians have a long history of accepting risk, and accepting safety failures as a natural part of speedy progress. They might have a working vaccine before the rest of the world, but I'm sure the rest of the world a)doesn't really want to know the process followed and b)would be horrified at the casualties involved if they knew.
That is true, but evidence from other islands with stricter and more determined governments have proved it's possible.
Actually no. Geographically isolated populations don't prove much of anything that is applicable globally.
It's managed to become covid free twice now I think. Each subsequent re-infection has been from infected individuals bringing it into the country and not abiding by quarantine rules.
Which actually supports my point, not yours. The kinds of draconian rules you mention can be put in place nominally. Enforcing them effectively is another matter.
Enforcing such rules for a time in a relatively small and geographically isolated population is doable. Effective enforcement such rules globally is all but impossible.
An Ontario study found that in households where a human had contracted covid and survived, 88% of cats and 20% of dogs had covid antibodies. Those percentages are rather higher than similar studies, but Ontario is further north and significantly colder, an environment where covid flourishes. The current wave of covid in the UK is behaving just like the common cold, coinciding with the arrival of colder weather and working its way south in sync with falling temperatures.
AJ
Do you happen to have a link to that study?
I'm pretty sure I read the same thing in one of the links I posted at the start of the thread.
Do you happen to have a link to that study?
No, it was mentioned towards the end of the Denmark study article in my newspaper yesterday and I believe their on-line version is now behind a paywall. IIRC, the study was by Guelph (sp?) University.
AJ
Quite often the key part when it comes to any creature being infected (including humans) is if they are symptomatic or not.
The most effective carrier is actually one that has no symptoms of the disease, and suffers no ill effects from it. Chimps and HIV is a classic example, and another is Ebola Reston. In both of these, chimps or humans can become infected by the disease, but suffers no ill effects from it. Mosquitos and malaria is another example, as are fleas and bubonic plague.
This is why in most investigations into diseases, a lot of research is put into the vector. Most now tend to believe Corona and Ebola both originate in bats, but there is also a question if it is the bat itself, or an insect or parasite that actually survives off of the bat.
But we do know that the entire Coronavirus family has shown amazing abilities to cross species. Pigs, cattle, horses, dogs, rodents, bats, humans, cats, camels, birds, all can become infected and most show symptoms. Which generally shows that none of these are the actual vector.
And this is not even a "new" virus, it has been known for over 90 years. But the frightening thing is how quickly it seems to mutate, and how easily it jumps species.
And also many are wondering at how it interacts with other diseases. 15% of "common cold" virus infections are a strain of coronavirus. And many are still trying to figure out the strange patterns that are almost impossible to define in the spread. It spreads like crazy, but has a fairly low death rate. In this it is not unlike the Spanish Flu. And research is still ongoing to see if prior exposure to other similar virus (like SARS, MERS, etc) have an effect on future infections and survivability.
We do not even know exactly how many strains there are, and there is some evidence that infected people can become infected again. This is a highly baffling disease, and it will probably be decades before it is fully understood.
But we do know that the entire Coronavirus family has shown amazing abilities to cross species.
There are reasons why the "common cold" is the most successful disease on the planet.
It spreads like crazy, but has a fairly low death rate. In this it is not unlike the Spanish Flu.
Serious estimates of the death rate from that Flu variation vary between 2% and 10% of those infected. There have been major advances in medicine over the last 100 years but even taking that into account, the death rate from Covid19 started off at the bottom end of that estimate and then dropped.
I have the statistics from my neck of the woods,
Age 0-34, no fatalities
Age 35-59, 0.2% of the infected died.
Age 60-79, 3.7%
Age 80+, 17.6%
This is on a total population of 6.2 Million. The total known infected is around 51500 of whom 20000 still have it - yes, things are pretty bad at present.
Going back to the Spanish Flu, there were a lot less "old people" back then - those who died were a lot younger and fitter. The flu was much worse. Once the flu had been around for a while, either it or the people adapted and the death rate dropped.
A virus which kills its host before the host has had a chance to infect someone else has failed, less lethal mutations have a better chance of establishing themselves.
Going back to the Spanish Flu, there were a lot less "old people" back then - those who died were a lot younger and fitter. The flu was much worse.
A large part of the issue back then was the high level of undernourished people in the general population due to the reduced availability of food because of WW1 disrupting so much of the food production system.
Yep. I've read one estimate that over 200,000 German civilians starved to death after the armistice. Its a 'pre-existing condition'.
@Dinsdale
Going back to the Spanish Flu, there were a lot less "old people" back then - those who died were a lot younger and fitter. The flu was much worse.
A large part of the issue back then was the high level of undernourished people in the general population due to the reduced availability of food because of WW1 disrupting so much of the food production system.
I am not so sure about that.
The main reason the US govt. set the retirement age for Social Security when they set it up in the early 1930s at age 65 was that most people were dead by age 63 and any unused money went into the general fund.
Problem is, if that was average life expectancy, most writers on SOL will tell how a 1-bomb effects average score...infant mortality similarly impacts average life expectancy. Elimination through vaccination of multiple sources of death of children also raised average life expectancy.
Maybe a beancounter somewhere has the tables to show how likely someone who lived to be 60 in 1930 would be to survive to 65, 68, 70, 73, etc. The real reason the Ponzi scheme worked so well for so long had to do with demographics - the people paying in severely outnumbered those receiving payouts, and once the boomers started working, it didn't matter how old people survived to until the boomers started collecting.
A virus which kills its host before the host has had a chance to infect someone else has failed, less lethal mutations have a better chance of establishing themselves.
Lets not forget the lasting effects after being 'cured'. Several people who survived Covid19 still have lingering problems and these could build up after being infected multiple times. A study in the Netherlands proved that even the brain of deceased Covid19 patients had signs of traces connected to Covid19.
Who knows, maybe in a few decades or centuries we're all dumbed down to Neanderthals or we gain telepathic powers :D
Who knows, maybe in a few decades or centuries we're all dumbed down to Neanderthals or we gain telepathic powers :D
Based on Boris Johnson and George Drumpf, the former is more likely. Although I personally believe the intelligence of Neanderthals is greatly underestimated - they had language, art, music, fire and they made tools. And they crossbred with Homo sapiens, so any disparity was probably quite small.
AJ
A virus which kills its host before the host has had a chance to infect someone else has failed, less lethal mutations have a better chance of establishing themselves.
Lethality isn't the problem there. Short incubation periods and poor transmission capability is much more problematic for a virus. If a form of hemorrhagic popped up that had 80% lethality, but the remainder of patients were asymptomatic, and it had COVID-style incubation and transmission, plus it took a week to kill once symptoms started? Care to guess the death toll? (Yes, this is completely contrary to any known virus in existence. It's pretty much the holy grail of bioweapons research tho...)
Serious estimates of the death rate from that Flu variation vary between 2% and 10% of those infected. There have been major advances in medicine over the last 100 years but even taking that into account, the death rate from Covid19 started off at the bottom end of that estimate and then dropped.
And there are a lot of other differences.
Almost no vaccinations, and more dispersed populations. So much more likely to have a "virgin field" type of infection and spread. Also, it followed just after a war, which saw millions of soldiers returning to their homes, possibly taking it with them. And the normal famine and disease that always follows war.
With global travel as it is today, the closest we really have anymore to "virgin field" is when a completely new disease breaks out (like this one). But as we are seeing, we also know that the more inoculations you have and the more you have been infected to various diseases, the better your body is in fighting this one off.
Roll COVID back to happen in 1920, it probably would have behaved more like Spanish Flu. But the last 100 years saw a lot of advances that affected it indirectly.
100 years ago, it would be common to find people who never traveled outside of their own county (not country, county). Today, we think little of getting in a car or on a train and traveling 300 miles to see a show.
Or hopping in a plane and flying across the country or to another country for 4 days. This was not the case then.
And some studies are showing that those that had the H1N1 vaccine a decade ago are less likely to get a major affect from COVID. I know that is something the military is really looking into, as all of us who were in 10 years ago got that vaccine. But the ones who joined since have not. And even browsing at those in the military that were affected, the majority of deaths are those 28 and lower.
It spreads like crazy, but has a fairly low death rate. In this it is not unlike the Spanish Flu.
One significant difference is the ages most affected by the two different diseases.
From an article about Australia's response to Spanish Flu: "Almost a third of deaths in Australia were of adults between 25 and 34."
Further to this: "There were reports of people seeming perfectly health at breakfast and dead by evening. An illness lasting ten or so days, followed by weeks of debility, was more common."
https://theconversation.com/how-australias-response-to-the-spanish-flu-of-1919-sounds-warnings-on-dealing-with-coronavirus-134017
So the Spanish Flu was more serious in terms of its short-term effects on those who didn't die and much faster in terms of those who did. Australia had to turn a number of schools into emergency hospitals to isolate and care for the sick. (my great-grandfather was in charge of one of them).
There is another factor that no-one here has yet mentioned. Covid is remarkably racist. In the UK, black and people from 'ethnic' minorities are at substantially higher risk. No one is quite sure why yet, with theories ranging from lifestyle (people with an ethnic background tend to have a higher household number)to genetic predisposition.
In the UK, black and people from 'ethnic' minorities are at substantially higher risk.
Blacks and South Asians seem to have a higher risk of poor outcomes if they contract covid. The terms 'BAME' and 'inequality' are incorrectly bandied around in this context - the racial disparity appears to be consistent across every strata of society.
AJ
So what happens to pets and farm animals when they become a carrier for coronovirus? If that report is to be believed, that potential just reared its head in Denmark.
OMG! So that's why Minerva Mink isn't in the Animaniacs reboot!
OMG! So that's why Minerva Mink isn't in the Animaniacs reboot!
She's too sexual for the twiddle kiddies.
Naw, she was into asphyxiophilia and snuck over a few studio's choking out Kenny. The studio wasn't happy.