Forum: Author Hangout

Believe me, I've got no problem with ignoring bogus advice, as I do it all the time (you'll find few single serial comas in my stories). What I don't like, is not knowing what the proper procedure is.

Before I got the latest Word spellchecker, I simply ignored punctuating leading prepositions entirely, but as it kept flagging them, I finally conceded to the point my editors had long warned me about. However, when the automated spell checker keep changing its mind, there's NO reasoning with it. So (no comma) it all boils down to either not punctuating leading prepositions at all, or figuring out what the supposed limitation on it are.

Given this erratic behavior, I'm guessing that there are NO clears guidelines on precisely when you need to punctuation prepositions, as it's all a matter of 'individual taste', which makes me think it's better doing what I'd initially done—ignoring punctuating initial preposition like I do the preposition "And".

But, most of all, all these rants this morning have less to do with the aggravations of eating, and my growing angst over having to endure yet another colonoscopy tomorrow. Having endured them for most of my adult life, the process never gets any easier, so I start making myself crazy early in the process. ;)

MS Word seems to always say I need a comma after "so" and "well" when beginning a sentence.

Correction: My ancient 2011 version of Word had the same restrictions, but my more recent 64-bit program on the Mac only flags some uses of leading prepositions (generally limited to a few words (3 - 6, from what I can tell).

But Switch, my question to you is: would you apply whichever initlal preposition punctuation rule applies, create your own on the fly, or bypass punctuating sentence-starting prepositions entirely? From the sounds of it, you're currently choosing option 2. I was applying option #3, but got dragged down this rat-hole by what seemed like moderately helpful assistance (by the newer spell-check feature), but now I'm considering heading for the hills and resuming my earlier option 3 choice.

If I can't get a more consistent answer on what are allowable exceptions, I'd rather not chose each usage on for fly as I'm writing. :(

my question to you is: would you apply whichever initlal preposition punctuation rule applies,

For me, it comes up in dialogue. If when "hearing" the person speak the sentence I hear a pause, I'll add the comma. If not, I won't.

For me, it comes up in dialogue. If when "hearing" the person speak the sentence I hear a pause, I'll add the comma. If not, I won't.

That's why I avoided adding ANY punctuation to leading prepositions, as the region I grew up in (i.e. most of America), I never pause in those instances. I just get on with my point, rather than waiting for permission to speak. That gets the conversation over faster for everyone involved! 'D

But, you've got a point. There's really NO reason to include any punctuation, and I've never gotten a single reader complaint, so …

My rule is that it's
"so, you wrote that sentence."
"So I did."

Or:

"I did so, you big fat liar!"

or

"I once sewed, but it's been so long, I took up crochet instead."

Another one is whether or not to have a comma before "too"

"I like her, too."
"I like her too."

I like her two, too, to the point of having two tu-tos too.

But, to answer your point, I end to make that decision on the fly in every case. I'm not married to requiring it be separated from the rest of the sentence (a holdover on the antiquated 'you can't end a sentence with a proposition' claim). Instead, like you I now base decisions on whether to use commas or not on the flow of the language. If a pause hurts the story, or doesn't sound natural, I'm quick to toss it out. As you stated, we're writing fiction, where the narrative voice is essential to the story (in literature, at least).

While I don't pause when starting a sentence with "so" when I'm speaking, adding one doesn't appear to hurt the story in the least, so I'm still somewhat on the fence about it. This one's a wash.

The biggest issue with inserting the comma after the initial preposition, is that it sounds like your characters are requesting permission to bring up an unwanted and unappreciated point, which definitely doesn't help either the story or in establishing strong, dynamic characters. :(

There are SOL stories with lots of sentences that end with prepositions.

Many argue that the entire basis of the 'no propositions at the end of a sentence' is based entirely on the name (i.e. since pre- means 'before', you can't stick it at the end). Unfortunately, there's no reason why you can't.

this topic is beyond my 5th grade english; which is why I listen to my editors...

That's always wise. It's those of us who think we're smart enough to play games who get into the most trouble.

I get a lot of bogus positive hits

You can ignore the bogus ones, but every once in a while a grammar checker catches a real error. It's worth keeping it on for that reason.

The simple rule I was taught is if the sentences still makes the same sense after you replace so with however then a comma after so is correct.

Remember the Valley Girls who always spoke: "Like, he's coming over tomorrow. Like, ohmigod. Like,…:

So and well are similar to that. A lot of people today begin a sentence with so or well. "Well, I went there yesterday." "So, how are you?"

Remember the Valley Girls who always spoke: "Like, he's coming over tomorrow. Like, ohmigod. Like,…:

Never having met one or watch any show with a name like that, I'm not sure about the usage you mention. However, if you're using so or any other word in a manner that you would use an uhm or similar interrupt sound then it should have a comma on each side of it. In what I said in the earlier post I was referring to when you use so in a grammatically correct manner.

There is a Valley Girls movie, but that's not the primary reference.

The entire 'Valley Girl' trend started when Frank Zappa's daughter, Moon Unit', coined the term and sang about how valid the girls were in the LA Valley. The song was such a hit, that Hollywood had to capitalize on it by making a movie, and the stereotypes because such a meme, that the Valley Girls motif appeared in numerous TV shows at the time. But, if you didn't live in LA (or didn't despise everything that LA stood for at the time), then it likely went right over your head.

There is a Valley Girls movie, but that's not the primary reference.

sounds like I was lucky to have missed out on it, and I should be glad I did.

sounds like I was lucky to have missed out on it, and I should be glad I did.

Again, the supposed humor is only relevant for those who despise everyone living in 'the valley', so for most of the world (and the U.S. too), it's not the least bit humorous.

So and well are similar to that. A lot of people today begin a sentence with so or well. "Well, I went there yesterday." "So, how are you?"

I'm revising an old novel, which is a trip in itself, but I'm yanking dozens of "Well," sentence starters, as they really don't add anything to the sentence.

As for the revision, I'm making multiple passes. The first pass is to clean up the text and bring it up to my current standards. The second is to restructure the entire chapter, changing it from the typical 'day in the life' story to an event driven story, so it's largely an exercise in frustration.

The problem is, that while those 'day in the life' stories and tedious and plodding, the character development is excellent, so I'm trying to improve the one, while keeping the other.