Forum: Author Hangout

Hyperbation: Screwing With the Order of Words

Vincent Berg 🚫

I'm curious about word order, after reading about Hyperbation, the deliberate misuse of the standard order of words in English. Since few native English speakers are even are of the order (though we all do it intuitively), here is the standard Adjective-Noun order: Opinion-size-age-shape-color-origin-material-purpose Noun.

I've recently thrown my editors a curve ball, by repeatedly reversing the standard noun-verb sentence order (shaving several words, at least) from the select sentences, but I'm having trouble even conceiving of changing the adjective order.

While there are many famous examples, there are nearly as many infamous examples as successful ones, so I'm nervous about even attempting it.

Anyone ever have any success in screwing with the 'natural order' of words?

Replies: Switch Blayde awnlee jawking

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Vincent Berg

natural order' of words

The natural order of words for me is what sounds right to my ears.

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@Switch Blayde

The natural order of words for me is what sounds right to my ears.

I think that's what most readers would prefer to read. Sometimes I encounter (long) sentences that I have to read twice to get the meaning or "reading tone" just because the last words in the sentence change the meaning of the first part. If that happens too often the story starts to feel more like a scientific paper instead of entertainment.
Of course there can be justifiable reasons for Yoda-talk ;)

Replies: awnlee jawking Dominions Son Vincent Berg awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

the last words in the sentence change the meaning of the first part

Garden Path sentences - one of my pet grievances :(

AJ

Dominions Son 🚫

@Keet

Of course there can be justifiable reasons for Yoda-talk

Like Yoda talk day it is?

Vincent Berg 🚫
Updated:

@Keet

Of course there can be justifiable reasons for Yoda-talk

Yoda's speech patterns is a classic example of hyperbation, as without the weird order, most of his statements are patently obvious. Yet, switching the words around, suddenly he seems incredibly wise, while uttering nonsense. (Yoda-speech also includes other, similar rhetoric techniques, which only furthers his 'awkward' statements into unforgettable one-liners.)

The key, though, is that these literary rhetorical techniques aren't simply random typos, they're a 3,000 year old list of rules for how to break literary rules, stipulating which oddball combinations produce the most powerful response in readers (they're originally based on observations by the Ancient Greeks on which lines played the best in public Plays before large groups, though refined over centuries of experimentation).

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

Of course there can be justifiable reasons for Yoda-talk

Coincidentally, there's a snippet about it in my tabloid-du-jour.

In the original SW script, Yoda spoke normally. George Lucas wasn't satisfied - he wanted a style of speaking that conveyed wisdom. After much refinement, he arrived at the object-subject-verb construct that made its way into the eventual film.

Object-subject-verb is allegedly unique to a few Amazonian basin languages.

AJ

Replies: Vincent Berg

Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Object-subject-verb is allegedly unique to a few Amazonian basin languages.

Which of course, are world renowned for their accumulated wisdom oh philosophies. 'D

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Opinion-size-age-shape-color-origin-material-purpose

Other sources cite different orders eg
opinion-size-shape-condition-age-colour-pattern-origin-material-purpose

Order might also vary culturally.

I think changing the order of adjectives to one that's unusual is a way if stressing their relative importance. For example if 'blue' is the most important quality, then 'blue' would immediately precede 'balls', after other adjectives like warm, hairy, large etc. ;)

AJ

Vincent Berg 🚫
Updated:

Alas, we've argued over the 'natural' order of adjectives before, so I have no desire to dive back into that mud pit again (not that I object to your point, in the least), but my point was over reordering phrasing for effect, rather than stressing an item's importance.

Perhaps some examples are called for:

Stone walls do not a prison make,
Nor iron bars a cage ...
~ Robert Lovelace (1642)

The natural order, however you define it, would render this as: "A Prison is not made from stone walls, nor a cage [from] iron bars", which isn't nearly as effective.

Unfortunately, other examples of successful hyperbaton are few and far between. So I'm having troubles wrapping my brain around it.

Note: Like a lot of these rhetorical uses, these apply mainly to poets, rather than storytellers, novelists or correspondents.

Update: Thinking it over, I thought of another, classic example: The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plains.

Most anyone would ordinarily write that as: Spanish rain mainly falls [on] the plains. Even though the sentiment is eminently forgettable, the reordered sentence is so powerful, that most people can't forget it multiple score after learning it in Kindergarten. Rather than the traditional Noun-Adverb-Verb structure, this plays games with it, using a Noun-Proposition-Subject-Verb-Adverb-Object structure.

awnlee jawking 🚫

As an aside, hyperbaton is the correct spelling. Otherwise readers might think it means excessive masturbation. ;)

AJ

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

As an aside, hyperbaton is the correct spelling. Otherwise readers might think it means excessive masturbation. ;)

Are you sure..??

When practising hyperbation one should select a suitable sexual aid using the criteria:

Options-size-age-shape-color-origin-material-purpose

(Note that age refers to that of the device, not the user)

Replies: Vincent Berg

Vincent Berg 🚫

@joyR

Building on my previous Order of Adjectives list, here's another little known factoid about the order of words in English. Whenever you repeat identical words with different vowels (ex: flip-flop, tit-for-tat or even hi-ho!), the order is I-A-O, which for the technically minded, is known as assent reduplication.

Replies: joyR awnlee jawking

joyR 🚫

@Vincent Berg

the order is I-A-O

An excellent example of the E U being disavoweled...

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@joyR

An excellent example of the E U being disavoweled...

Bacon, it's what's for BREXIT. :)

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

assent reduplication

That phrase achieves exactly one hit on Google, and on a non-English site at that :(

ETA: Found it on Wikipedia (spit!)

Ablaut reduplications: chit-chat, hip-hop, ding-dong, jibber-jabber, kitty-cat, knick-knack, pitter-patter, splish-splash, zig-zag, flip-flop, flimflam, wibble-wobble. In ablaut reduplications, the first vowel is almost always a high vowel and the reduplicated ablaut variant of the vowel is a low vowel.

AJ

Replies: Vincent Berg

Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

assent reduplication

That phrase achieves exactly one hit on Google, and on a non-English site at that

Without the reference in front of me, that was likely an autocorrect error, though your 'high-low' vowel explanation probably accounts for why the I-A-O order prevails. After all, chit-chat works, with the short a sound), but chip-chap doesn't, with a long-a sound. My source simply specified the detail, without explaining why.

richardshagrin 🚫

I don't know if my two issues fit this discussion, but I have problems with "Free Customer Parking" and recently received notice of a "Mandatory Earthquake Meeting" where I live.

Slaves, escaped prisoners, persons on parole, married husbands, perhaps other persons who are not "free" shouldn't park where only free customers are allowed to park. Probably the business offering free parking wants it for all customers, but the sign says only free customers should be able to park.

I was unable to determine if mandatory earthquakes are more severe than other earthquakes, but I think management's intent was that the meeting was mandatory rather than the earthquake.

Replies: Vincent Berg

Vincent Berg 🚫

@richardshagrin

Meeting earthquake, mandatory is!

Nope, I still prefer the original in this case.

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Hyperbation: Screwing With the Order of Words

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