Forum: Author Hangout

Tits? Really?

damn, I thought it was a pair of eyes opened real wide.

So I thought I'd play it safe and indent all paragraphs, including the first one in the chapter. It would have been disastrous to not indent the chapters and miss one. Consistency is important.

As to your observation, though, I never gave it thought. Since the scene change is represented by a blank line, it might look funny not to indent the first paragraph of a new scene. After all, it might be in the middle of the page.

Yeah, doing nothing is definitely the safest route, as no one really expects different first paragraph formatting, but many traditional publishers do it for most of their books. Since I'm now including graphics (instead of a blank line) for my section breaks, it's more obvious that it's a new section.

I noticed it when my Pro editor, who was unconcerned with formatting of any kind, reformatted each of my first lines. Curious, I started checking out different published books and made this latest observation.

@Ernest

Print format has an indented first line for each paragraph to show where the new one starts. Most don't have a gap between paragraphs on the same page, except where there's a horizontal rule or a line gap for a change of scene.

Ernest, this is a separate formatting for the first line in chapter (or section). Where the rest of the chapter paragraphs are indented (no spacing between paragraphs), the first line isn't indented. It's traditionally found in print books, but as the two formats are gradually merging, it makes sense paying attention to.

Plus, I'm really into formatting! 'D

Ernest, this is a separate formatting for the first line in chapter (or section). Where the rest of the chapter paragraphs are indented (no spacing between paragraphs), the first line isn't indented. It's traditionally found in print books, but as the two formats are gradually merging, it makes sense paying attention to.

CW, a few years back I looked into all this, and it's only a few publishers who do it that way today (or so I was told at the time), and it's a carry over from when the first character of a chapter was done extra large or as a Drop Cap and thus really stood out. It wasn't indented because it used that extra space from the indentation for the larger letter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial#Types_of_initial

edit to add; I'm into formatting too, and prefer consistency over an outdated inertia action.

Now that we have it straight [EDIT: This is a joke], I'd say Switch has it half-right: check traditionally published print books and see what you find. By "traditionally" I mean print books published by real publishing houses.

The original post failed to indicate the joke, which is why I added the edit. My bad.

I agree entirely about consistency.

It's a pain being right all the time, but someone has to do it. [PSST: That's another joke.]

bb

The original post failed to indicate the joke

What was the joke? Crumbly asked a valid question about indenting the first paragraph at a new scene.

I learned from it.

What was the joke? Crumbly asked a valid question about indenting the first paragraph at a new scene.

I learned from it.

My spouse says my jokes are crappy. She's right.

The joke I was making was *of course* Crumbly's topic was *not* excess. In other words, I don't think any excuse or apology is necessary for talking about correct formatting. In a rather silly fashion I was agreeing that Crumbly's question was a good one.

Yes, I understand that Crumbly was poking gentle fun at his own preoccupation.

As for the right way to do it, yes, I was expressing my own opinion. Anyone can do it anyway he likes. The result may not be pretty. I'd like prospective readers to take my work seriously. Understandable, clear, consistent and-traditional-formatting is a good way to do it, in my view. Different genres have different styles, too.

There's a reason why Lazeez, in discussing what you can do with formatting, points out that more is not necessarily better.

In my view, traditional-i.e., generally following what traditional published print books do-still looks better, looks more professional, displays better, and is easier to read than the alternatives.

Mr. Beach has his ideas. Others have their own. No worries. None at all.

And for all who live anywhere on the DC-NYC axis, I hope you've stocked up on TP, milk, frozen pizza, and good books.

Cheers,

bb

Yes, I understand that Crumbly was poking gentle fun at his own preoccupation.

I never got that.

As to making your books professional, I agree 100%. Right or wrong, the traditionally published books are the standard of "professional" so I try to mimic them, too. Both their formatting as well as the "rules" they follow for writing fiction, which includes the style guide they use.

I guess my next novel, if I ever publish another one, will not indent the first paragraph of a chapter and scene.

Agree.

bb

check traditionally published print books and see what you find.

I just checked some of the books Amazon placed on my page when I went to it (Treasure Island, Dr. No, Huck Finn, The Kite Runner, To Kill a Mockingbird).

All but "To Kill a Mockingbird" left justified the first paragraph of the first chapter (I ignored another book because it had the drop-down large first letter). That's interesting. I didn't find that high of a percentage when I did my search way back.

Also, ignore the advice of those who say skip the front matter in your ebook. Don't. Follow the pattern set by traditional print books, or at least a variation of it.

The only caveat to this advice, is that the front matter chews up the 'free read material', and you really don't want potential readers wasting time reading filler. My solution, list the front matter chapters in the correct order in the index, but move the front matter to the end of the book. It still shows in the free-read index, but doesn't appear when someone reviews the book.

Concerning "the right way to do it", please, let's play nice and not start this nonsense again. There is no right or wrong, these are simply suggestions, either use or ignore them. They're publishing tools, that's it!

@Bondi

As to making your books professional, I agree 100%. Right or wrong, the traditionally published books are the standard of "professional" so I try to mimic them, too. Both their formatting as well as the "rules" they follow for writing fiction, which includes the style guide they use.

Another trick I adopted (based on an article on formatting that Switch (I believe) recommended) is to use decorative fonts for each chapter header. Since you generally need to pay more to embed fonts, and it doesn't always work, I create transparent images of the fonts using a graphics program (Photoshop anyone?).

I must say, it certainly has an impact. Whenever someone picks up one of my books, the first thing they say is to comment on the graphics. What's more, I'm hoping it helps justify the higher price I charge for my ebooks (I still don't sell many print books except for person-to-person sales).

My solution, list the front matter chapters in the correct order in the index, but move the front matter to the end of the book.

You may want to check that with a lawyer. The copyright warning is a legal notice and most legal notices need to be up front to have any legal validity in court. Think of the difference it makes to the police case if the cops give the Miranda warning at the end of the interview instead of the start. In some legal jurisdictions people can not be held legally responsible for anything prior to being given the warning or where the warning notice is.

However, that's a personal choice and you can do it your way, if you choose to. Just don't get upset if a judge says it means nothing back there.

You may want to check that with a lawyer. The copyright warning is a legal notice and most legal notices need to be up front to have any legal validity in court.

I mix and match it. Since the items I move are transparent to the end user, I move the bigger items to the back where they aren't seen during the preview, while leaving the legally necessary ones--the copyright and acknowledgments--in the front. I started doing this when my list of "Other Books by the Author" started spanning multiple pages! It's a great sales tool, but only after someone's already decided to purchase the first book.

The copyright warning is a legal notice and most legal notices need to be up front to have any legal validity in court.

I have mine up front, because of how the traditionally published novels have it, but it's not really necessary. The novel is copyrighted with or without the copyright notice.

I have mine up front, because of how the traditionally published novels have it, but it's not really necessary. The novel is copyrighted with or without the copyright notice.

In a perfect world, you're right, and having the notice or not shouldn't make a difference if it ends up in court. However, the copyright laws aren't the same around the world, and a lot depends on where and how the story is published, because that will affect how the courts will view what you may be entitled to as compensation if it goes that far. I copyright my stories under Australian law, and thus get a longer protection without further action than if I depended solely on the US law relevant to being published on Lulu in the USA.

My understanding is that in any country that is a signatory to the Bern convention the notice or lack there of should be meaningless from a legal perspective, because the Bern convention requires that everything that can be copyrighted be considered copyrighted from the point of creation.

The Berne Convention requires the signatories to recognise the copyright rights of the other signatories. However, some countries have legislation that's different to the Berne Convention, the USA is one such signatory. If I create and first publish a story in the US I'm covered under the US law, but by doing it in Australia I'm covered under the Australian law. Australia is a single period of life plus 70 years after death of creator. My understanding is the US law has some variations, so consult a US copyright lawyer about them. I do know there was a situation with regards to some of the Sherlock Holmes stories due to the differences in the US copyright laws. Around the world all of Doyle's works are now public domain, with the exception of a few stories published in a book by a US publisher, until very recently those stories were still copyrighted due to the variations in the US laws. That's why some Sherlock Holmes films slated for making in the USA ended up being made in Canada several years ago. That was finally sorted out in 2014. There's a few other such oddities around, as well.

Also, there have been some controversies over the Berne Convention due to how various courts have ruled the meaning of creation because some see it when the author starts the work and others see it as when they finish the work while others see it as when the work has a significant level of production. At one point some courts set the copyright as starting at publication, but a few court cases have killed that idea in most countries.

typo edit

However, there are some issues unique to US law.

Which is the point I was raising. In the Doyle case the copyright has expired all around the world, yet some people were able to register the copyright for that book under the US system simply because that book was printed in the US and was within the time period the US allowed them to extend the copyright regardless of those same stories having been published earlier and elsewhere are were public domain.

The US definition of work for hire also leaves a lot to be desired. If you hire someone to create a work, then there's no trouble about who should own it, but there've been cases where the companies have claimed the works of others simply because the person worked for them at the same time as they created the work, despite the creation not being during their paid work time. One computer programmer I know has a specific clause in his contract that sets out his work hours and that anything coded outside those hours or off the company premises is his alone. Many companies refuse to hire him because of that clause.

I am familiar with this because I work in IT. Under the base work for hire doctrine, with no specific contract provisions, If you create it during time you are paid for or use any employer resources(this would include a computer provided by your employer for you to use at home) to create it, it belongs to your employer. If you create it on personal time without using any employer resources, it's yours.

And that treatment has taken decades of court cases to be accepted at that level in most of the US because some people have set out to change the way it was applied despite the wording not changing.

...............

In the case with my friend, he was hired to create a set of graphical user interfaces for a proprietary program that was being upgraded. During his unpaid lunchtime and at night he used his own notebook to code a game. When he went to market the game his employers found out about the game and tried to claim it as theirs under the work for hire rules - that was back in the 1990s. The courts ended up deciding that because part of the work was done during his lunch break the company had an interest in the game, despite him not being paid for the lunch break. The court declared he had the copyright but was ordered to share all profits for the game with the company. He didn't want to do all the BS paperwork to track sales or share with the company, so he made the game freeware and neither made a profit off it. But he left them and had the new clause in his contract for the next employer. He's since made about half his annual income from small games he writes and the other half from writing business software upgrades under contract.

edit to add: I forgot to mention his contract was for hourly pay for the time logged onto their system working on the code. Thus he could prove when he was off the clock.

Even now that would be risky unless he was going off site to do the work. The break room itself is an employer resource and that may have affected the outcome of his case.

The fact they don't pay you for that time kind of negate the concept of work for hire, doesn't it! If they aren't paying you, how can it be for hire? However, I don't know if he worked in the break room or in his car or in a nearby park he often spoke about sitting in during lunch.

I told you earlier that the doctrine covers anything created either during time you are paid for or using employer owned/provided resources.

Yeah, but you got to start to wonder about the courts when they say things like a break room justifies a company claim on personal work done there. Heck, I've worked at places where you're not allowed to leave the grounds during meal breaks and are required to spend the entire break either at your desk or at the approved break room or walking between. I wonder how the US courts go with that one.

However, the real point of all this is: you have to be very damn careful about what you do, where you do it, when you do it, and what you use for doing it.

Very true, at least if you work in a regular job where you create IP and are also trying to create IP for personal profit on your own time.

Heck, you don't have to be employed to create IP to have the company claim any you create. Decades ago I read where the original wire coat hanger was invented by a clerk at a wire making company to hang is coat up with. The company owner saw it and started making them while claiming he owned the right because it was done by an employee. There are numerous accounts like that. Most are from decades ago, and longer, but they show how the work for hire law was being applied irrespective of what you were being paid to do.

If the employee doesn't apply for a patent, the employer is free to legally copy it.

The US is the only place where people not involved in the creative process can get the patent. Because involved in the identification of the Penicillin in France, UK and Australia didn't apply for a patent one was issued in the US years after it was in general use by the military. Also, some US companies have filed for patents and copyrights on naturally occurring genetic material, and been given them. Figure that one out. Anyway, this is starting to wander too far.

Also, some US companies have filed for patents and copyrights on naturally occurring genetic material, and been given them.

There's a well-documented book about Roberta Lacks, who had a genetic anomaly which gave her numerous cancers. The clerk running her blood samples sent it to a drug manufacturer (without her permission), and those companies are now making billions while nothing has ever been paid to the woman's family, nor have they ever acknowledged (to the family) what they did.

Under US law, copyright attaches as soon as a work exists in any form outside of the author's head.

And that's the issue they still have issues with - when does the work as a work actually exist outside the creator's head? Is it when he starts the first line of the first chapter with It was a dark ... or when they get to The End or some point in between. Which is the point I was making, at different times different courts in different jurisdictions have given different rulings.

Under US law, copyright attaches as soon as a work exists in any form outside of the author's head. A hand written draft manuscript is protected. Emails are protected. This post is protected by copyright.

Does that mean a novel is protected once the entire first draft is completed, or merely once the work has been started (i.e. when one to five chapters have been written)?

I'm assuming this is open to court interpretations, but I'm looking for a general rule-of-thumb I can follow, rather than a legal guarantee. For now, I'll list my copyright date as my 'story start date'.

I leave the title page, copyright page, acknowledgments (crediting artists, editors and others who may take offense if they don't see these), and the Table of Contents (so readers can see how many chapters there are) at the front of the document, while moving "Other Books by the Author", "About the Author", "Character List" and "Contacting the Author" get shoved to the back.

Why do authors let the Table of Contents take up screen (page) space? I find it really annoying.

In the Lulu-published books the reader accesses the Table of Contents on the menu bar (in iBooks) or in a narrow sidebar (Kindle), but it doesn't take up screen space or pages.

The "Also by" page after page is distracting, no question.

bb

Why do authors let the Table of Contents take up screen (page) space? I find it really annoying.

I just did the "Look Inside" for my ebook on KDP. Although my novel has a ToC, it doesn't show up (and therefore waste sample pages).

What shows is:
1. the cover
2. a quote from Shakespeare
3. name of novel
4. author name
5. copyright notice
6. one line to follow me on Twitter
7. acknowledgements
8. Chapter 1

Items 2-7 are about a screen long.

I just did the "Look Inside" for my ebook on KDP. Although my novel has a ToC, it doesn't show up (and therefore waste sample pages).

OK, here are some examples:

In Kindle:

Ride Me Hard (professional reading-don't ask) in the book itself has a ToC in the sidebar *and* a ToC that takes up 1 and 1/2 pages. The "Look Inside" version has no sidebar, but the ToC again takes up 1 and 1/2 pages.

Julie's Spring in the book itself has a sidebar ToC but no ToC in the pages; the "Look Inside" version thus has no ToC at all.

So is that the reason for including it in the text itself-so it appears in the "Look Inside" or other preview feature? Seems like a bad tradeoff, unless you really want the prospective reader to see the chapter headings. But then it doesn't leave as much room for the reader to be entranced by your hot text.

iBooks

NYPD 4 In looking at the sample provided, the new James Patterson novel has what I guess Crumbly is saying he does: the ToC is available from the menu, *and* there's a link in the front matter to the ToC in the rear which takes up at least a couple of pages.

So I guess if you absolutely want the reader to see the ToC in the "Look Inside" or "Sample" view and yet not waste preview pages showing it, you need to provide a link to the complete ToC at the rear of the book, even if in the sample only some of the linked chapters are actually available to read. EXCEPT: why link at all if the chapters, as in Patterson's book, don't have titles, only numbers?

bb

A couple points, Bondi. First of all, much of this rests on who's producing the book. If we, the authors, create ePubs, the books rarely have a separate TOC. However, when third parties get involved (like smashword), they'll often dump a separate TOC into the document, which is beyond your control.

In terms of the usefulness of an extra TOC page, many potential readers want to see how many chapters there are, and will even look at how many pages there are (if it's available). That's why chapter titles should contain spoilers, but should invoke curiosity about where the story is going (i.e. clever works better than story specific titles). So, yes, the TOC offers a service for potential buyers.

Being able to control what appears in the preview is a handy tool, and should be considered before committing to print.

Speaking of print, a TOC is necessary for print books.

Why do authors let the Table of Contents take up screen (page) space? I find it really annoying.

That's often a software setting of the device being viewed on. But it can also be part of how the original software created the file.

In my master file I have a Table of Contents which I delete before I create the e-pub because the e-pub automatically creates it's on ToC with links. In some devices this shows as a side-bar I can open or close and others have it as a page at the front of the story.

Why do authors let the Table of Contents take up screen (page) space? I find it really annoying.

In my case, I create the TOC on my own (i.e. I don't rely on a website searching for tags). That gives me greater flexibility. If I'm creating an ePub, I can eliminate the TOC page, otherwise, the TOC page is used to create the index the other sites use.