Forum: Author Hangout

Robin Hood is supposed to have been a son of a Landed Gentry and a returned Crusader, so may have picked up that trick from people in the Holy Lands, who acquired it from their extensive travels and trading ventures.

Robin Hood is supposed to have been a son of a Landed Gentry and a returned Crusader, so may have picked up that trick from people in the Holy Lands, who acquired it from their extensive travels and trading ventures.

From a mythological/fiction standpoint, anything is possible. From a historical standpoint, no one has ever proven Robert Hod/Robin Hood/Robin Wood, ever actually existed.

The question asked in the OP:

Is that practical (both attaching the note and having a whistling arrow)?

That was not a question regarding a Myth. The short answer to it is no.

That was not a question regarding a Myth. The short answer to it is no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood#Historicity

Actually, while there is no definitive proof of a real historical Robin hood, It can't be definitively ruled out either.

However, the modern version of the myth that puts Robin Hood into the Reign of King Richard and the crusades is definitely just myth, as references to a Robin Hood (or variations there on) in English lore go back to at least the 13th century.

There may also be a bit of a real world "dread pirate Roberts" thing going on with a historical Robin Hood as some sources seem to indicate that it was a common alias for English bandits.

However, the OP was not asking about the Robin Hood myth in general.

It was a specific question about the plausibility of whistling Arrows with a note tied to them.

On that point:

The Silk Road trade route goes back to at least the days of the Roman Empire.

Whistling arrows existed in Asia at that time period. It is not impossible for the technology to have made it's way across the silk road to the holy land and have been picked up by crusaders, then make it's way back to England. Unlikely perhaps, but not beyond the realm of real world possibility.

As to the note, much depends on the method of fixing it to the shaft of the arrow.

So no, the short answer isn't no, it's maybe.

I'm sticking with no in regards to the English long bow and solid shafts arrows. Mixing up Asiatic sources of very short range arrows does nothing to prove the premise.

The premise is an arrow relay over hundreds of yards distance each. The only viable option there is scratching the whistling arrow, replacing it with color bands on the shafts, and off setting the fletching to force some noise. Though even then, it's unlikely to need more noise in the night. To understand that, I'd suggest finding someone with an English longbow, and getting them to fire a few shots for you. They are not as quiet as they are made out to be in the movies.

The options are many as they mention numerous people over a period of almost 200 years with three option during the period the stories are ostensibly set in. On the downside none are a perfect match for the stories despite having similar names and operating in the stated area.

Which still leaves it firmly in the land of mythology. It is my opinion that it is far more likely an amalgamation of those stories with a lot of embellishments over that 200 years.

Why would the paper not be secured in a tube like a carrier pigeon?

Why would the paper not be secured in a tube like a carrier pigeon?

I'm pretty sure tubes didn't exist until 1634 when they were invented Viscount Alfred Cylinder of Tubes. A fair time after Sir Robin of Loxley.

I'm pretty sure tubes didn't exist until 1634 when they were invented Viscount Alfred Cylinder of Tubes.

Um no.

Here is a roman bronze scroll case dated 200-300 BC.
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/zurqieh/171/product/ancient_roman_bronze_scroll_case_with_lid_200__300_ad/1065606/Default.aspx

@redsliver
I'm pretty sure tubes didn't exist until 1634 when they were invented Viscount Alfred Cylinder of Tubes.

Um no.

Here is a roman bronze scroll case dated 200-300 BC.
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/zurqieh/171/product/ancient_roman_bronze_scroll_case_with_lid_200__300_ad/1065606/Default.aspx

Unconvinced!

I have fired one, you can hear it. And unless you can secure paper very securely directly behind the head, it will likely not survive the travel at that speed. Air resistance would shred it.

Of course that presumes you are trying to simply tie the message to the shaft of a normal arrow.

Look at the different kinds of whistling arrows from Asia. Some use specialized heads, but some have a whistle build around the shaft behind a normal arrow head. If you built a sort of cylindrical "scroll case" around the shaft of the arrow behind the head, that might work.

And unless you can secure paper very securely directly behind the head, it will likely not survive the travel at that speed. Air resistance would shred it.

At that time paper was not made from wood pulp, but from recycled linen etc, which is much less fragile and therefore much harder to rip.

At that time paper was not made from wood pulp, but from recycled linen etc, which is much less fragile and therefore much harder to rip.

Or more likely parchment. Arrow velocities really aren't high enough to shred paper or parchment with air resistance anyway. If they were, the fletchings wouldn't stay on.

Or more likely parchment.

Actually, at the time, my understanding is that vellum (made from calf or lamb hide) would have been more common than either parchment or linen based paper.

Actually, at the time, my understanding is that vellum (made from calf or lamb hide) would have been more common than either parchment or linen based paper.

Vellum is a kind of parchment.

Range and accuracy are two of the key points. Both of which will be affected by any addition to the arrow for both weight and aerodynamic reasons. That's simple physics that cannot be gotten around.

Could a method be devised? Yes. Would that method match the myth? No.

We know colored signal flags have a very long history. Simple color bands, with specific meanings, painted on a shaft would be the KISS method with very little impact on distance and accuracy.

That's simple physics that cannot be gotten around.

It can't be gotten around, but it can be worked with.

As long as the aerodynamic effects are symmetrical around the arrow shaft, it shouldn't affect accuracy much. The same goes for weight. Any added weight will cause the arrow to drop faster, but as long as the weight is balanced around the shaft, impacts to accuracy should be minimal

As for range,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#CITEREFStricklandHardy2005

The range of the medieval weapon is not accurately known, with much depending on both the power of the bow and the type of arrow. It has been suggested that a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400 yd (370 m)[25] but the longest mark shot at on the London practice ground of Finsbury Fields in the 16th century was 345 yd (315 m).[26] In 1542, Henry VIII set a minimum practice range for adults using flight arrows of 220 yd (200 m); ranges below this had to be shot with heavy arrows.

So relay of an arrow with a message attached at 100 yard intervals wouldn't be anywhere near maximum range for a normal arrow from an English long bow.

Unless you can point to actual tests that show something to the contrary, I'll call bullshit on attempts to dismiss it out of hand as impossible.

So relay of an arrow with a message attached at 100 yard intervals wouldn't be anywhere near maximum range for a normal arrow from an English long bow.

Unless you can point to actual tests that show something to the contrary, I'll call bullshit on attempts to dismiss it out of hand as impossible.

I don't particularly care what you call. The myth as read was a relay of intervals at English longbow ranges. Not 100 yards. Changing the parameters does nothing to prove your assertion. If anything it disproves them.

Changing the parameters does nothing to prove your assertion.

The OP's original paramaters while they say long distance, they also call for this being done through a forrest. That will limit range or each shot far more than the physics involved in tying a note to an arrow.

And you still have nothing but hand waving assertions that it wouldn't work even at more extreme ranges.
Experiment trumps theory every day and twice on Sunday.

Again with the assertions.
Ed

The OP's original paramaters while they say long distance, they also call for this being done through a forrest. That will limit range or each shot far more than the physics involved in tying a note to an arrow.

Tell me when you walked Sherwood forest to learn the entire forest is so densely packed with trees that only one hundred yard shots were available?

One hundred yards is definitely within range of bird calls, whistles, and a multitude of other calls and methods. It defies logic and common sense to assert that arrows would be used for messaging at such short range.

Assert what you will. Your thought process here is seriously flawed.

One hundred yards is definitely within range of bird calls, whistles, and a multitude of other calls and methods. It defies logic and common sense to assert that arrows would be used for messaging at such short range.

Perhaps 100 yards is a bit short, however, the source I cited put the maximum range of an English long bow at a little over 400yrds. The minimum required range for training with normal arrows was over 200 yards.

No Forrest I am familiar with, and I am familiar with more than a few in the US would allow for 400 yard shots.

As to "bird calls, whistles, and a multitude of other calls and methods" the complexity of the messages that could be transmitted are limited. And even at relatively short ranges, an arrow relay will travel faster than any runner and carry far more complex messages.

In not considering the factor of speed and complexity of the messages involved, perhaps you should look to flaws in your own thought process.

An English crown forest is a declared area controlled by the central government, much like a National Park in America. It doesn't have to be a closed canopy treescape. Those are called ancient woodlands in England.

I'm sure Banadin's Sir Richard Jackson could make the shot. In real life? Trained longbow men had distorted arm bones. They were apprenticed as children and their physique was developed by pulling the bow.

The average peasant or younger lordling who practised for an hour after church each week with the local militia? I'm sure he knew how to BBQ & drink beer (or the medieval equivalent), but stand a post all day in concealment, waiting for a given arrow to arrive, then re-send it.

I doubt it.

Range and accuracy are two of the key points. Both of which will be affected by any addition to the arrow for both weight and aerodynamic reasons. That's simple physics that cannot be gotten around.

The simple physics is that a slip of paper and a bit of string have very little mass relative to the arrow itself (and a longbow arrow would be heavier than the ones I tested with, which are spined for a lighter bow), and when wrapped tightly around the arrow shaft, add very little drag. The fletchings on period arrows were often spiral-wrapped with twine to help secure them (because their glue wasn't very good); my message adds less drag than that, and certainly less weight (and for that matter probably less drag) than using a war or hunting head rather than the target head.

I put the message at the back of the arrow partly so that any added drag would be behind the center of mass, and so help aerodynamically stabilize the arrow, but I don't think it made any actual difference.

I'm limited in how much range and accuracy testing I can do in my back yard, and I don't know when I'll have a chance to try on a longer range, because the weather forecast is kind of crappy (it's already started raining again since I was out with the bow earlier), but I didn't see anything from my tests that led me to believe that performance would be affected more than very slightly. If there's any difference in how the arrow flies relative to a bare arrow, it's less than my eye can see.

I was more concerned that the message would come unwrapped (which was the other reason I put it just ahead of the fletchings: so it didn't have room for momentum to shift it on launch), and had been considering more secure methods of attaching it, but just wrapping it tightly and tying a string around it worked perfectly on the first attempt, so I didn't further pursue anything more complicated.

The bigger problem with passing notes via arrow is that your typical Middle Ages forest bandit is highly unlikely to be literate.

The density of bronze from that era is in the neighborhood of 8780 - 8920 kg/m^3.

Which is irrelevant. Lighter metals were available in the relevant era and it wouldn't have to be metal at all, nor would it necessarily have to be as large as the roman scroll case I linked to up thread. A much smaller tube made of wood, hardened leather, bone would do.

Besides we don't even know at a tube of any sort would even be needed.

Focusing on the worst case scenario and dismissing the possibility out of hand is not a logical conclusion.

Which is irrelevant. Lighter metals were available in the relevant era

It was the example you yourself used. Why did you use it if it was irrelevant or other lighter metals were available?

As I said, arguing for arguments sake. I'm sure you have a wall nearby, please feel free to argue with it. I'm done with this.

Why did you use it if it was irrelevant or other lighter metals were available?

Because I wasn't responding to the issue specifically for a tube for a message arrow, but was replying to a specific comment that tubes in general didn't exist until much later than the period in question.

Tubes, a.k.a. cylinders, are a hell of a lot older than 200-300 BC.

Jesus, I didn't think this was an ancient aliens conspiracy theory form. 1634.

No 'ancient aliens' to it. Just the history of the cylinder relative to humans.

Personally, I think hand signals or whistles, given the distance, would be more managable.

This is highly dependent on the complexity of the message you want to send and the final distance.

The myth wasn't just sending the message the distance of a single bow shot. It was a relay. So say we are sending the message 1 to 5 miles by relay.

For simple messages, a word or two, maybe even a full sentence, you are probably correct.

Whistles could be good for a fairly long distance, but not miles with something that a human can do without tools and if you are trying to imitate bird calls to conceal that a message is being sent, that will shorten the distance even more.

For hand signs, from what distance do you think complex hand signs can be read reliably through woodlands?

So, we haven't eliminated the relay concept.

On the other hand for a more complex message, say a couple of paragraphs of written text, relay by hand signals or whistles wouldn't work. Even with a complex enough hand signal code (definitely possible) or whistles (maybe) you would run into telephone game problems very quickly. The intended message would become too corrupted too quickly.

For the complex message, what are your other options given the time period? There are only two other options to send the message with any speed, a relay of human runners or a man on a horse.

Man on horse would give the most flexibility in terms of source and destination, as a horse can run faster, farther than any human, and no relay is needed.

On the other hand, if speed is essential, no horse can outrun an arrow.

So manageability comes down to how complex the message is, how far it has to go, and how fast it needs to get where it's going.