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Major Personal Squick

karactr 🚫

This IS NOT a political discussion...I just wanted to get that point in first...but a tag discussion based on a personal squick.

We, or at least I as a reader, understand that EVERYONE, including authors, have their own political opinions. I can even appreciate that you as authors want to express them in your work. However, when you include a political diatribe in a story could you PLEASE include the "Politics" tag in the description?

I read about 15 different works this past holiday weekend, and was blindsided in about half of them with political rants espousing one side or the other. I don't really mind reading them...though the one that was basically a Scooby villain substituting "Democrats" for "kids" was particularly annoying...but would appreciate some warning in the tags.

Personally, I find politics...entertaining...but if you are going to put a tirade in work, TAG for it.

Replies:   Jim S  Ernest Bywater
Radagast 🚫

Politics done well doesn't have to be an in your face challenge to the reader.
Rlfj's MC in A Fresh Start engaged in a prolonged political war with the Clintons. In The Grim Reaper the MC publicly went against Trump. Both acted in a way that was real for the character, so if they were Marty Sues they were very well done. I couldn't see either as being offensive, except to the permanently offended.
In DTP Eric Flint, an avowed communist, subtly interwove his politically views into the actions of the characters in 1632 and the first few sequels so they came across as logical and pro-survival. It was only when he started re-enacting the failed 1919 German Revolution out of apparent blood lust / 'this time I'll get it right' that I stopped reading.

Its a sign of a poor author when they need to berate their audience into compliance with their views. Probably why the dead tree news / MSM mass media circulation is failing.
A 'personal political views' tag would be great as a filter.

Replies:   karactr  Vincent Berg
karactr 🚫

@Radagast

On your example from "Grimm Reaper", personally, i dont think even trump would be stupid enough to post what the story had him do about a CMH recipient. I can see him not backing down if he did.

That story also does not carry a "politics" tag. IMO, it should.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Radagast

I've been accused of writing a few political screeds, but in each case, they reflected the views of the characters. Since they were concerned with helping others, they criticized actions which inflicted harm. I don't see that as politics, any more than a business owner character complaining about how business regulations are overwhelmingβ€”they're perspectives, not opinions. In one, they're interested in protecting people hurting, in the other, he's dealing with issues which affect his business.

Unfortunately, few things see items like that as character traits, instead they assume (as readers often do) of attributing the character's attitude to the author, as if authors are incapable of writing about anything besides their own viewpoint.

When someone complains, I always review the passage, keeping an open mind, but in almost every case, when I made tweaks to ease potential issues, the readers instead dug in their heels, insisting that I change the story to support Their political views, going so far as threatening me with massive boycotts (which have never happened).

And of course, faced with unrelenting demands and a refusal to even discuss the matter, I double down, not only restoring the original version, but continuing the conflict by arranging for additional conflicts between the same characters.

For the most part, readers appreciate the strength of the character development, rather than insisting on 'correct viewpoints'. But when someone takes issue, there's really little you can do to appease them over then rolling over and surrendering your soul to their beliefs. It just ain't worth talking at that point.

That said, I agree with karactr's point. Fleshing out different aspects of a character strengthens the storyβ€”even if it entails their personal perspective, but its best to avoid politics.

The best stories never attack issues like politics directly. Instead, they address it in a way which catches readers by surprise, like Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer or Harriet Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin. By crafting things in terms of fantasy, or as a children's story, readers will enter the story without carrying their previous political positions with them.

That way, when you reveal the central injustices, readers focus on how it impacts the characters, rather than how it impacts their personal political positions.

Case in point, I addressed several difficult issues with homelessness and metal illness in my Demonic Issues series. Rather than bore readers with depressing descriptions of human suffering, the story instead is written as a man battling invisible fantasy creatures from another dimensions who cause people's mental illnesses.

That approach allows me to address the story's central issues from the side, rather than a direct broadside against readers' established positions.

That said, I'll likely never avoid story side plots just to avoid people's political screeds. If you dislike the characters I create, then please, only read about characters who repeat what you already believe.

I prefer stories that challenge, not only me, but my positions. It's only by questioning one's assumptions that anyone changes their beliefs. Threatening people never changes anyone's opinion, it only provokes increased conflicts.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

When someone complains, I always review the passage, keeping an open mind, but in almost every case, when I made tweaks to ease potential issues, the readers instead dug in their heels, insisting that I change the story to support Their political views, going so far as threatening me with massive boycotts (which have never happened).

Mine tend to be complaining that my main character is a right-wing (even alt-right) zealot despite:

1) Opposing the death penalty in every case

2) Supporting legal access to abortion

3) Having an all-female executive suite in his business

4) paying his taxes (and not using dodgy tax loopholes)

5) being an agnostic

6) having a completely egalitarian pay scale at his company

7) instituting paid maternity leave AND paternity leave

8) providing top-of-the-line healthcare to all employees at no cost

9) Fighting racism and discrimination at every turn

10) Is a pacifist

The 'alt-right' claims appear to be the result of his belief the 2nd Amendment applies to individuals and that the that he objects to the size and scope of the bureaucratic state.

I've tried to discuss it with the complainers and it's like beating my head against the wall.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Michael Loucks

I've tried to discuss it with the complainers and it's like beating my head against the wall.

If your head gets tired, you can also alternate with those complaining. I know you've beat my head against the virtual wall a few times. :)

But it's part of this larger fictional narrative about authors 'writing what you know' somehow being twisted into 'anything an author writes is a personal confession about their own character flaws.' I feel your frustrations.

Redsliver 🚫

True, I dislike the tirades. And I agree if you are going to throw in a strident, this is how the world works, dammit! treatise, label it politics.

But this make me wonder, how does one keep politics out of a piece? Characters have politics and its kinda fun to play with a controversial idea. I prefer to deliver any political opinion through an imperfect character. I Have No Idea has a few Jordan Petersonian and Men's Rights points to it but it all comes out of Brian who is purposefully broken. Does that mean I'm pissing on those idea by putting them out through an idiot character? I Have No Idea! *Cue laugh track*

I think the safe, probably smart, option is just to recognize the driving theme of your story and explore that. The main part of I Have No Idea was whether or not I believed in free will.
I don't know but I'm leaning no.

The danger of including politics is, of course, shutting the door in the face of a section of your would be audience. I don't remember the story or the author, but I remember a scene. The protagonist is meeting the mother of the girl (or one of the girls I read stories with multiple females) he likes. She's seeing that he measures up and asks him about politics. He says something not unlike:

"I am looking forward to turning 18 so I can vote Democrat."

Turned me off like a lightswitch. I'm a lefty, a lefty in Canada. But the thought of voting for the party disgusted me. Vote for the candidate at worst and the principles at best. I can't remember anything else about that story. Did I like it? Was it well written? Who were the characters? Did I finish it?

Politics are always a landmine for reasons you as the writer may never predict.

Yet, I don't think I would ever advise against being political. I think my primary advice is: If you're a lefty and you can't write a right winger that a right winger would believe or you're a right winger and you can't write a lefty a lefty would believe, stay the fuck out of politics. :)

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Redsliver

If you're a lefty and you can't write a right winger that a right winger would believe or you're a right winger and you can't write a lefty a lefty would believe, stay the fuck out of politics.

Excellent point, though you're essentially arguing against your own interests as you continue writing about flawed characters with flawed points of view. ;)

norefund 🚫

Seems like excellent advice.

Radagast 🚫

I'm re-reading it. I'll have another think about it when I get to the politics. From memory, compared to what has gone down in American politics in the last three years the scenes in GR were rather mild. Right now its all guns, explosions and a sweet love story. The good bits. :)

HITLER!
Had to get that out of the way as we have strayed into real life politics. I think Trump will say anything that sets his opponents raging for the next 24 hour news cycle. He gets inside the OODA loop of the propagandists. He does a master class in manipulating the behavior of the press and thus by proxy, his own supporters who react negatively to the press.

Mind control harem writers with a narcissistic viewpoint about their talent, looks and sex appeal could consider him fuel for future ideas for preventing exposure, obtaining access to loot and victims, extending influence to more than the directly enslaved, misdirecting attention until the MC's evil plans cannot be stopped, etc.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@Radagast

Mind control harem writers with a narcissistic viewpoint about their talent, looks and sex appeal could consider him fuel for future ideas for preventing exposure, obtaining access to loot and victims, extending influence to more than the directly enslaved, misdirecting attention until the MC's evil plans cannot be stopped, etc.

Hmm... I never considered writing a competent mind controller before. There is a lot to work with there. The joke's on whatever narcissist you were talking about, I'm taking the idea first!

Jim S 🚫

@karactr

I view the Politics tag as being there for stories where politics have a significant presence. Making humorous offhand comments against a particular political figure or viewpoint wouldn't in my mind qualify for using it. Especially when said figures present such juicy targets, this on both sides of the spectrum. Having said that, I agree that political rants should carry the tag. And second your wish that more authors would use the tag much the same as those describing sexual activity, i.e. as warranted.

Michael Loucks 🚫

As someone who would have to plead guilty due to overwhelming evidence, I wonder where the line is? If literature is social commentary (among other things) when does it cease to be social commentary or character development, and become 'too much'.

That's an especially important question for what amounts to an historical novel where historical political (and other) events have a major impact on the lives of the characters.

And yes, I would add the politics tag to my main body of work (or at least certain books).

Radagast 🚫

When it breaks the average reader out of the story universe and makes them go WTF?!
When it becomes wack-a-mole at straw men.
When it doesn't fit the character's personality.
When it becomes a Marty Sue /Mary Sue insert.
When it stops the story from flowing.
When its not part of the expected plot / universe the story is set in.

Pretty much like sex scenes. Most stories on here have sex in them. Many have just sex. The better ones have sex as part of being human, a driver for their ambitions and emotions. In a story that would normally be 'no sex', heavy sex scenes don't work.
I recently read Uther Pendragon's Regency romances. They were nice light entertainment that fitted an old formula well.
So I downloaded a story from a different author who had a large output labeled 'Regency'.
The story was the normal scenes of plotting a Season in London, who are the best suitors, angst at losing them to fate or other women, the realization that the unsuitable suitor is very eligible man indeed, a marriage, the end.
Unfortunately there was no continuity between those scenes and the scenes were very truncated, due to the insertation, with zero segue, of acrobatic sex with the servants in all possible combinations.
I will not be reading any more from that author. I'll happily wait for Uther to produce more.

If politics is a major part of the universe, then politics is to be expected. The reader doesn't have to agree with it, just find it real and interesting. Sex and power go together, so there is plenty of potential to write stories for this site from the viewpoint of Republicans & Democrats, NASDAP and Zionists, Royalists and Republicans, in any possible series of combinations.

Here's a good one.
When Kevin Spacey's house of cards crumbled in real life, he publicly threatens the House of Windsor with exposure. The journalist who started the the investigation into Spacey is killed. The victim refuses to co-operate with the prosecutor.
Trump meets The Queen. Jeffery Epstein is arrested. Accusation are leveled against Prince Andrew in court. Epstein dies suspiciously.
A journalist announces she is writing a book about Lord Mountbatten's involvement in child abuse. She is shot 'by the IRA' the same week and dies on her way to hospital in the back of a police van.

There is the start of a story that could have all the perverted sex you want, and all the politics you want. Royalty, Presidents, Hollywood, Republicans and Democrats. International alliances. The oldest money and the new. How will it unfold? How will it end?

Of course, if you hit too close to home you may be arkancided. Because it all happened in the last six months in real life.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Radagast

When it breaks the average reader out of the story universe and makes them go WTF?!

My $0.02: The average reader doesn't actually exist. No human is exactly average in ANYTHING.

Every reader is unique. Outside of internal inconsistencies, discontinuities in the story universe and bad grammar/spelling(and even that has to get pretty bad first), there is nothing that will consistently pull a majority of readers out of the story like you suggest.

If you read a lot of western novels I'd be willing to bet that the gunfights get formulaic and boring exactly what the people who complain the most about sex scenes in stories most bring up about the sex scenes.

If you actively try to write a story that squicks no one, it will end up being boring crap that no one wants to read.

Ever wonder why no movie studio other than Disney has been able to make a go at making G rated movies, not PG, not PG-13, but straight G. Because it's fucking hard to make movies that people will want to watch and still make the G rating. And even Disney is branching out away from the G rated stuff, because there's not enough of a market for it.

You can't win, so write the story you want to write and the people who don't like it can fuck off.

Replies:   Vincent Berg  Radagast
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Dominions Son

You can't win, so write the story you want to write and the people who don't like it can fuck off.

Authors, even successful ones, get very little compensation for the incredible amount of work involved. The thing that motivates them are the issues that drive them. If your ideas don't drive you, you can't hope to write a compelling story, as no one will care if your friggin' characters don't.

If the characters step on a few toes, even if those sections are crudely written, it's the sort of drive which advances stories, and raises them above the broad swath of unremarkable tripe.

So write what's important to you, and if someone takes offense, suggest stories you think they might prefer instead. There's really little point in picking fights, especially with those without the ability to reason intelligently. Above all, play nice when it comes to a difference of opinion. No matter how strongly you believe in something, others have a different perspective, and see things completely different. That doesn't make either party wrong.

Radagast 🚫

@Dominions Son

Internal inconsistencies, discontinuities in the story universe are what I was talking about.
A character who is happily going along making a fortune as a cut throat tycoon, then starts ranting about the the evils of capitalism isn't going to fly for me. Which is why when silicone valley billionaires start talking that way I wonder what is in it for them.
A shop floor worker with a weak union, an inventor squeezed out of the market by regulatory capture, a ma & pa running a grocery or pharmacy, about to be put out of business by Walmart or Walgreens? These I can see making such statements.
If the story holds together then I as the reader stay in the story. In Grim Reaper mentioned upthread, Grim is a self admitted bit of a dumb ass who's GF/wife does his best thinking for him. He is immensely loyal to those he cares for or works with,with a strong sense of right and wrong, which made him a good soldier and cop. combine those two factors and he
is willing to get in a pissing match with the President of the United States when someone a little bit smarter or more flexible would realise it wasn't a winning proposition. I didn't share his world view, I just enjoyed the story.

As for the 'average reader', you are probably correct that there is no average. That said, setting aside those who come here for masturbatory fodder and whose reading is otherwise restricted to the sports pages of their news site; a reader coming to SOL for content that stimulates the imagination and not just the genitals will hopefully have:
A sense of discrimination, able to set aside or ignore that which isn't for him or her. Why spend time at a free site if they can't do this?
A tolerance for different world views, at least for the sake of world building. Going outside the standard tropes and well trod themes that populate commercial fiction means accepting something different.
Some respect for the author and their efforts. Eg:If a story is not for me I don't vote. Why give a low vote and discourage the author if its not to my standards or tastes? If its great and to my taste I buy their books. Payment is the best form of praise.

That is what I consider an average reader. Their race, religion, politics or sex don't matter. They are people who like to read. Probably more than they like to watch TV, listen to music or many other ways of passing spare time.

Of course there are the politically correct, the permanently offended from the sneering class. These can be left, libertarian or right wing, although they always consider themselves to be firmly in the center.
Being correct and correcting others is more important to them than anything else. Gossips, censors, inquistors, political officers, the name changes over the years, the 'correct opinion' they espouse inverts and reverts over the decades, but they will always be willing to fight to your death to ensure it is upheld.
They are always a minority, but they are noisy and persistent and they infest the internet like cockroaches.

Switch Blayde 🚫

"Alice in Wonderland" is a political satire.

shaddoth1 🚫

Politics are almost impossible to leave out of a story. even the midevil fantasies, the MC still has to deal with the King/queen/High Muckety-muck.

As long as the Politics fit the character, then all is good. It's when the MC makes a sudden right turn or a side character goes on a chapter long diabtribe that I tune out.

Shad

Remus2 🚫

The answer to this is simple. Stop reading. Go somewhere, change stories and or author, no one is forcing anyone to read a story.

karactr 🚫

Let me set something straight here, please. I was not complaining about any particular political viewpoint. I have mine. You have yours. And, we are both free to express it as we wish.

As I stated earlier, I find politics entertaining. I rejoiced when Congress's break was over and AOC opened her mouth again. Yeah! My entertainment was back.

My complaint was that the tirades in stories weren't tagged. I probably would have read the stories sooner if they had been. Perhaps, however, the earlier comment that the "politics" tag regards only elections or political type manoeuvring holds merit and I am being too sensitive. (Or not in the case of the Scoobyish example since, by the end of that story, one of the characters was POTUS.)

Maybe we need a new tag like "political" or "commentary" or "diatribe"? Though any of those would likely set off the "safe space" SJW's.

Or maybe I just need to go back to my own sandbox and keep my mouth shut.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@karactr

Maybe we need a new tag like "political" or "commentary" or "diatribe"? Though any of those would likely set off the "safe space" SJW's.

There have been cases where someone posted some sort of rant over something or other without even the pretense of a story. If you report them to the SOL webmaster, they will get removed.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@karactr

if you are going to put a tirade in work, TAG for it.

The issue with this is how you decide what is a tirade or a rant and what is straightforward comment on a political situation.

In the early chapters of Boone - the Early Years I set out some aspects of both sides of the background on the US Civil War in a manner that did not deliberately paint one side bad and the other side good, just stating the issues and why some people chose which side they joined and why some people chose to keep out of it as part of the story plot background. Yet I received some emails from people abusing me for including a political rant against the Confederacy as well as some emails from people accusing me of a political rant supporting the Confederacy - you try to figure that out. I took it simply as so0me readers having a bitch because I did not specifically support their biased view on the issue.

I've seen other stories where the author has touched on politics in a way to support the story, and others which are as clearly biased as a 1960s Soviet propaganda broadcast. The difficulty lies in where the line is drawn in regards to what suits the story.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Yet I received some emails from people abusing me for including a political rant against the Confederacy as well as some emails from people accusing me of a political rant supporting the Confederacy - you try to figure that out.

On many, many issues, many people have staked out a position and hold it to be so 'true' that saying anything about the other side which is not extremely critical is taken as support. Neutrality is impossible in their minds.

And that is the death of history.

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob 🚫

@Michael Loucks

So what if I disagree with the rants of your characters? I read stories mostly because the author is a good storyteller and/or makes me care about what happens to the characters. If one of them takes a position with which I disagree, I can learn from it. It's also why I get my news from a wide variety of sources - right, left, center, upside down. Even if you disagree with the source, it's always nice to know what the opposition is saying, and I hope it's cogent.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@PotomacBob

So what if I disagree with the rants of your characters?

It's not about disagreeing - that's not just OK, it's expected. It's about fixing your position so firmly that you are not only unwilling to consider alternatives, but also believe anything short of complete condemnation of an opposing position indicates full support for that position.

It's also why I get my news from a wide variety of sources - right, left, center, upside down.

I do this as well. One of the things I learned to do as a trained historian.

Even if you disagree with the source, it's always nice to know what the opposition is saying, and I hope it's cogent.

I agree, but we've entered a period where the 'true believers' are actively trying to silence opposing opinions, to the point of passing laws which criminalize opposing positions.

Replies:   Remus2  PotomacBob  Tw0Cr0ws
Remus2 🚫

@Michael Loucks

we've entered a period where the 'true believers' are actively trying to silence opposing opinions, to the point of passing laws which criminalize opposing positions.

Agreed

Replies:   karactr
karactr 🚫

@Remus2

Seconded.

PotomacBob 🚫

@Michael Loucks

I agree, but we've entered a period where the 'true believers' are actively trying to silence opposing opinions, to the point of passing laws which criminalize opposing positions.

Who did that?

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@PotomacBob

Who did that?

The answer to that will likely generate a series of responses which will cause Lazeez to lock the thread. DM me for specifics. :-)

Tw0Cr0ws 🚫

@Michael Loucks

we've entered a period where the 'true believers' are actively trying to silence opposing opinions, to the point of passing laws which criminalize opposing positions.

Some people on one political side have taken to shouting 'racist' at anyone who dares to disagree with them.
Another group has started to push for more laws against 'hate speech'.
How long until the 'hate speech' laws get used against the 'racists'?

There are no journalists anymore, only political operatives with a byline.

Replies:   karactr  PotomacBob
karactr 🚫
Updated:

@Tw0Cr0ws

It gets much worse than that.

I believe it comes down to people thinking they have a right to not be offended or upset by what someone else says or does or believes or espouses. And by a belief that what they wish can somehow circumvent reality.

I forget the exact story (yes, CRS sucks), but I agree with it that Physics is king and Biology is queen. You can't defeat either of them no matter how hard you wish it so.

How else can you explain transgender women..biologically male..wanting abortion rights?

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@karactr

I forget the exact story (yes, CRS sucks), but I agree with it that Physics is king and Biology is queen. You can't defeat either of them no matter how hard you wish it so.

The Millionaire Next Door

https://storiesonline.net/s/54088/the-millionaire-next-door

Replies:   karactr
karactr 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

I believe you may be correct, but I am too tired to investigate. I do remember liking it.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@karactr

I believe it comes down to people thinking they have a right to not be offended or upset by what someone else says or does or believes or espouses. And by a belief that what they wish can somehow circumvent reality.

I believe that the entire 'offense economy' was created intentionally with the purpose of silencing the majority who object to the demands of the minority.

Replies:   ShintaroWoo
ShintaroWoo 🚫

@Michael Loucks

not really "minority" but more 'tiny' number of mostly well off white people, especially young. a communist professor was one of those trying to point out how rich white kids are harassing poor minorities for using non-PC terms.

problem is selective reporting, as noted decades ago by a famous news guy (american?)I cannot recall.

KGB defector bezmenov had interesting interviews.

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob 🚫

@ShintaroWoo

Ponder this. How many of us would have any idea what is going on in the world if it weren't for reporters? Should we trust our governments to tell us the truth?

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@PotomacBob

How many of us would have any idea what is going on in the world if it weren't for reporters?

True, but the problem today is about 90% of the people claiming to be reporters are really social propaganda activists instead of being reporters. Reporters report only the facts and all of the facts on all of the news while most media people today pick only what will fit their propaganda agenda and ignore all that doesn't fit their agenda.

Replies:   Keet  PotomacBob
Keet 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

... while most media people today pick only what will fit their propaganda agenda ...

True, but that's why you will have to follow multiple media to get a general idea about what is really happening. With some regularity I check upon a far left site supported by one of our national broadcasting channels. Most of the time I have to leave fast because the drivel makes me want to puke but at least it keeps me somewhat informed on what is happening there. Far right is explicitly presented in all media (although colored too) so thankfully no need to visit an extreme right site.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Keet

True, but that's why you will have to follow multiple media to get a general idea about what is really happening.

I find the UK and Aussie media often has the more interesting US news without the propaganda, as long as you keep away from the government sponsored media centres.

Replies:   Keet
Keet 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

I find the UK and Aussie media often has the more interesting US news without the propaganda, as long as you keep away from the government sponsored media centres.

Definitely yes, especially staying away from government sponsored media. US media is generally tragedy and comedy, and that's the news channels :)

PotomacBob 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

bout 90% of the people claiming to be reporters are really social propaganda activists

Is that your opinion or do you actually have data to support your claim?

Replies:   Remus2  Ernest Bywater
Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Is that your opinion or do you actually have data to support your claim?

It's called empirical evidence. Anyone with a brain and an unbiased mind, can read, listen, and watch for themselves.

ETA; My opinion is 90% is a very conservative percentage.

Replies:   Keet  PotomacBob  LupusDei
Keet 🚫

@Remus2

ETA; My opinion is 90% is a very conservative percentage.

I agree, haven't found any reasonably objective news media in a very, very long time. Can't remember anything coming close but that might be a CRS problem.

PotomacBob 🚫

@Remus2

It's called empirical evidence. Anyone with a brain and an unbiased mind, can read, listen, and watch for themselves.

ETA; My opinion is 90% is a very conservative percentage.

the claim was very specific. I'd be interested in seeing the data you compiled of ALL news sources and ALL reporters so that you can make such a comprehensive assertion. I'm also curious how to find the time to watch and read everything, brain or no brain.

Replies:   Keet  Remus2
Keet 🚫

@PotomacBob

the claim was very specific. I'd be interested in seeing the data you compiled of ALL news sources and ALL reporters so that you can make such a comprehensive assertion. I'm also curious how to find the time to watch and read everything, brain or no brain.

That's quite simple. List the unbiased, objective news media / reporters here:
mmmm...
uhhh...
???
result: biased, propagandistic, hidden agenda = near 100%.
I'm very interested in just one or two sources.

Remus2 🚫

@PotomacBob

the claim was very specific. I'd be interested in seeing the data you compiled of ALL news sources and ALL reporters so that you can make such a comprehensive assertion. I'm also curious how to find the time to watch and read everything, brain or no brain.

You can try to worm out of it, redirect, or apply a multitude of logical fallacies, but that will never change the end result.

LupusDei 🚫

@Remus2

It's called empirical evidence. Anyone with a brain and an unbiased mind, can read, listen, and watch for themselves.

There's no such thing as unbiased mind. Best you can do is know and manage your own biases, but that process will necessarily be biased too.

Likewise, absolutely everything ever written is propaganda, intentionally or not. The very concept of communication prescribes advertising and propagating ideas as a natural goal.

True objectivity is nought impossible even in a courtroom, expecting it from random strangers reporting far away events is rather naive.

Everyone have some objective, some way they would want to change the world and of course their communication will be slave to those objectives, consciously or not.

Replies:   Keet  Remus2
Keet 🚫

@LupusDei

Everyone have some objective, some way they would want to change the world and of course their communication will be slave to those objectives, consciously or not.

How about the objective to report hard facts?

Replies:   joyR
joyR 🚫

@Keet

How about the objective to report hard facts?

Actually at this point I'd be happy if stuff that matters was reported instead of bullshit 'fluff' stuff and which 'celeb' is fucking/divorcing/marrying/arrested. That kind of thing should stay firmly in the 'showbiz' section, far away from meaningful dialogue or newsworthy reporting. (If any still exists and/or the knowledge of how to do it still survives)

Remus2 🚫

@LupusDei

Is that your opinion or do you actually have data to support your claim?

That was the question.

There's no such thing as unbiased mind. Best you can do is know and manage your own biases, but that process will necessarily be biased too.

Likewise, absolutely everything ever written is propaganda, intentionally or not. The very concept of communication prescribes advertising and propagating ideas as a natural goal.

True objectivity is nought impossible even in a courtroom, expecting it from random strangers reporting far away events is rather naive.

Everyone have some objective, some way they would want to change the world and of course their communication will be slave to those objectives, consciously or not.

You've effectively answered the same with different wording.

Ernest Bywater 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

Is that your opinion or do you actually have data to support your claim?

It's based on what they've been producing for the last several years.

Edit to add: It's easy to compare how the same story is reported on by CNN and Fox News to see how they wildly differ in what they have to say. They're just the 2 most obvious US media outlets. What is more telling is what they do not report on at all and what they leave out of the reports they do make.

Replies:   Keet
Keet 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

What is more telling is what they do not report on at all and what they leave out of the reports they do make.

That is one of the major problems with current news reporting. A very common one: one channel displays a camera angle with a huge crowd, another chooses to display the same event with a camera angle with very few people. Don't forget what they do with sound either. Loud screaming versus dimmed sound and sometimes even screaming edited out. Selective witness accounts. I don't think there's a single news channel that doesn't practice one or more of these.

ShintaroWoo 🚫

@PotomacBob

internet now; vs newspaper, radio, 3 tv stations, etc. as in they were the only options, developed over time.

society must monitor discrimination by service providers, which can have power equal to or greater than government.

nice that people finally noticed big data.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@ShintaroWoo

society must monitor discrimination by service providers, which can have power equal to or greater than government.

In the UK, government is pressing service providers to censor content. For example, they are trying to direct search engines away from vaccination discussion groups. Okay, some of the anti-vaxxer claims are pure fantasy, but at the same time there are legitimate concerns about vaccinations that deserve publicity. It took a lot of time and pressure before the innate government/NHS cover-up culture was overcome to the point of accepting the link between the swine-flu vaccine and narcolepsy.

AJ

Replies:   ShintaroWoo
ShintaroWoo 🚫

@awnlee jawking

sometimes it is government/establishment, sometimes it is party. clearly chinese communist party is trying to do a lot with Internet and now 5g and AI.

seem to recall UK and most countries do not really have fairly strong freedom of press and speech. but big business media can be just as much of a factor as big government.

first cover up culture now cancel culture.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@ShintaroWoo

seem to recall UK and most countries do not really have fairly strong freedom of press and speech

I agree, but this is probably veering a little too close to the banned topic of politics :(

AJ

PotomacBob 🚫

@Tw0Cr0ws

There are no journalists anymore, only political operatives with a byline.

That's akin to saying "there are no writers or storytellers anymore, only political extremists." Neither statement is true.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 🚫

@PotomacBob

That's akin to saying "there are no writers or storytellers anymore, only political extremists." Neither statement is true.

Name an actual independent neutral journalist. I'd be thrilled to see one still active.
My opinion is you cannot. If for no other reason than journalism is a job. Any job has an employer. That employer/corporation endorses or otherwise supports their own political beliefs.

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S 🚫

@Remus2

Name an actual independent neutral journalist.

Answer: there has never been a neutral journalist. Back in the glory days of print newspapers, there were several layers of review to rein in anyone remotely out-of-control with facts or with trying to insert opinion. That died with cost cutting in the newsrooms in response to the competition from new digital media platforms.

We may have lost the attempt at neutrality from the past forever unless the various new organs out there make a concerted effort (as in the past) to remove partisan political beliefs from their work. I don't see that happening any time soon unless a few start disappearing into bankruptcy. The discipline of profit can work wonders sometimes.

Replies:   Michael Loucks  Remus2
Michael Loucks 🚫
Updated:

@Jim S

Answer: there has never been a neutral journalist

This.

Newspapers were known to have political leanings and this was accepted as normal.

Remus2 🚫

@Jim S

All true, which was my point.

Redsliver 🚫

I'm glad, I wanted to really explore the how to of politics in writing for some time but had avoided several discussions due to the shrieking. Am I right to say that it seems the consensuses (concensi?) of the thread are:

1, if you're going to swing a huge political dick across the cheeks of your reader, tag the work.
2, including politics can be good and need not rise to the level of shrieking autism. Especially if the author is good.
3, it's appreciated when the author knows the politics from more than his own point of view, and doesn't get bogged down in his own infinite loop.
4, there are twits out there you can't please, especially if politics are involved. Fuck 'em.
5, we need to lower the voting age to 12.

I think that seems to be what people are thinking.

Replies:   BarBar
BarBar 🚫

@Redsliver

we need to lower the voting age to 12.

That should be the upper limit of the voting age!

awnlee jawking 🚫

A John Major personal squick involves tucking one's shirt into one's underpants ;)

AJ

Jason Samson 🚫

Some readers fit their own personal prejudices into the stories they read, and believe everything is an attack on them. I've recently had really strong racist mails about Backcountry, for example. Yuck.

Replies:   PotomacBob
PotomacBob 🚫

@Jason Samson

Does the freedom of speech extend to a reader (regardless of prejudices and biases) who is offended by what you wrote, and expressed that disagreement by sending you a note about it?
Does a racist have the right to espouse racist views? Does someone who opposes racism have a right to point it out?

Replies:   Tw0Cr0ws  Jason Samson  Remus2
Tw0Cr0ws 🚫

@PotomacBob

That is the paradox of tolerance.
If you oppose intolerance you are being intolerant.

Jason Samson 🚫

@PotomacBob

> Does a racist have the right to espouse racist views?

Yes

> Does someone who opposes racism have a right to point it out?

Hell Yeah

i get feedback accusing me of things that I have to google on account of not being current on American affairs. I guess all the non-American authors step in those kind of land mines all the time. I mean, this is the forum where you can get 50 answers to the question of "what gauge of shotgun should 12yo girls use?" so it's just to accept that the readership seems us-centric. ;)

Remus2 🚫

@PotomacBob

Does a racist have the right to espouse racist views?

Yes. Anyone should be free to expose their ignorance.

Does someone who opposes racism have a right to point it out?

Yes. Assuming it's actually racism they are pointing out. If you point to a person and call them racist without clear evidence, then that is slander.

Tw0Cr0ws 🚫

Back in the 80's/90's some of the anti-gun groups wanted to redefine books and magazines about guns as pornography, so that it could be put behind the counter in opaque bags and gradually restricted out of existence.

Freedom of speech? Or freedom to say only the things that offend no one? ... and since everything offends someone just say nothing.

The left wing and the right wing are both part of the same vulture picking at the dying body of freedom.

Redsliver 🚫

Is neutrality even the desire? Transparency and objectivity is better. Neutrality is not taking a side. Transparency is knowing which side is being taken. Neutrality is not favoring any of competing narratives. Objectivity can still favor a narrative that matches the truth better.

Replies:   Tw0Cr0ws  Remus2
Tw0Cr0ws 🚫

@Redsliver

The news should be what happened or did not happen, it should not be opinion presented as fact. If you are doing an opinion piece it should be presented as such.
Too many 'reporters' are more interested in telling people what to think, not what is going on, the same is true of their employers.

Objectivity went out of fashion with the retirement of Walter Cronkite's generation.

Replies:   Redsliver
Redsliver 🚫

@Tw0Cr0ws

Is there a disagreement between us? You don't think reporters are giving us transparency or objectivity but agree with me that they would be good things. Right?

Do you take my point on the difference of transparent and objective vs neutral?

It's hard to parse the story out of your opinion post.

Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@Redsliver

Neutrality is not favoring any of competing narratives. Objectivity can still favor a narrative that matches the truth better.

Truth is not found in subjective reporting. Neutrality is desired for being a reporter/journalist. Reporting of facts to people so that they may make up their own minds, in lieu of being spoon feed a slanted narrative.

I state subjective as it's impossible to be objective among humans of any ilk. Everything witnessed, heard, or written cannot be reported without first passing through a person's subjective view points.

karactr 🚫

How did my squick get to this point?

I agree, objective journalism is best and very rare these days. People should be taught and learn to think for themselves. Also, very rare it seems.

In America, I blame it on the dumbing down of the education system since the 1950's and Jimmy Carter for implementing the department of education. But what do I know? I just won't teach due to those changes. Waste of a degree.

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S 🚫

@karactr

I agree, objective journalism is best and very rare these days. People should be taught and learn to think for themselves. Also, very rare it seems.

Objective journalism serves a major purpose in a free society and that is informing the populace of whats going on. That way, informed judgements can be made when going to the polls. At least that's the theory. I think that's the real reason every one holds out objectivity as the Holy Grail. Also, it goes without saying (or should) that subjective journalism masquerading as objective subverts that purpose.

Maybe the best we can hope for (as someone else noted) is the subjectivity being acknowledged so the consumer can contrast and compare competing sources. I mean real competition. Not the faux competition that you see especially on cable stations nowadays like CNN, MSNBC and Fox.

Redsliver 🚫

How did my squick get to this point?

Yeah, I love seeing how conversations wander. That's why I tried to list what I got out of this thread a few posts back, including how to address your squick of untagged political screeds.

Truth is not found in subjective reporting. Neutrality is desired for being a reporter/journalist. Reporting of facts to people so that they may make up their own minds, in lieu of being spoon feed a slanted narrative.

Hmm, I think we agree but are using a few words a little differently. Arguing semantics will just muddy the waters. I agree to agree.

ShintaroWoo 🚫

"right wing" gets interesting, for example fox news is mostly (not all) the same content as rest of media.

"anti" is more expedient than "pro" on any topic by anyone.

karactr 🚫

And another thread I started that has gone far off topic.

Quit bashing my favorite form of entertainment, please.

Last night's debate was a hoot.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@karactr

Last night's debate was a hoot.

Owl's well that ends well.

AJ

Replies:   karactr
karactr 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Owl's well that ends well.

Let's leave Hedwig out of this shall we? Another one sorely missed.

Michael Loucks 🚫

That is one of the major problems with current news reporting.

This really isn't a new thing - cf Hearst v. Pulitzer ('Yellow Journalism'); newspapers preceding and during the Civil War; etc.

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