Forum: Author Hangout

Buzzfeed is about two months away from bankruptcy.

I'm surprised that they're still going. I used to find Buzzfeed links all over the place on social media sites but today is the first reference I've seen for quite some time.

AJ

Having said that, getting an opposite gender perspective through an editor, friend, spouse, reader, etc is good advice. For that matter, it's probably the only way to 100% carry it off successfully imo.

That's why we need more female editors (to catch our male perspective issues). Spouses, friends and readers typically won't be as bruitily honest as most authors need, and also can't as artfully articulate a women's perspective. If you find one, cling (proverbially) to her, and if you don't mind, pass her name on to me as well.

Typically yes. My spouse and friends? Not so much.

In my case, my family are often my primary beta-readers. However, I have to watch while they're reading (typically while we're both sitting in the living room). Whenever they put the book aside for bathroom breaks or a snack, I check where they were in the story.

The idea is, whatever caused them to break in the middle of page, rather than waiting for a chapter or section break, is a significant plot hole that needs addressing.

I've discovered some significant 'reader' issues with my stories that way. There weren't story issues, but rather perception issues, where one person views situations differently than others. But if it stops some readers in their tracks, it makes sense to address it.

The way I do that is by 1) acknowledging, in the story, that it is an issue (by having the character's themselves call the character on their behavior.

That alerts the reader that you're aware of the issue, and they'll assume that you are planning to address it, so they won't quit the story over the one issue. That buys you time.

You then 2) take the time, sometime later in the story, to specifically address the issue. This satisfied that segments of readers who took exception to the character/situation, and by winning them over by resolving the conflict, you win them over as lifelong fans, as they now see your oversight as a carefully planned subplot to further develop the characters and bring out their internal conflicts.

People don't always tell you the truth, but you can infer the truth. The same as you can with blatent attacks.

Then again, I have a cousin who wrote me a detailed list of 'fixes' for one of my books, and my bother typically notes any all all typos. Both of which are highly valued. A reader who's so involved in the story to work at it, rather than merely putting it aside and forgetting it, is a testament to the power of your writing to engage readers.

What I suspect we won't see anytime soon is the reverse viewpoint even though I think it has equal validity:

Most of the issues listed here are women projecting their own preferences, stereotypes, and even fetishes into their characters, and it's honestly lazy writing. It's poor authorship to not do the research to accurately put yourself in the POV of the character you're narrating as. If you're not willing to do even that, then at least get a male editor if you're writing from a man's POV.

AJ

If the advice came from their writers then I would agree.

On the other hand, it appears that the list was made from comments made on Tumblr.

And since when is Tumblr a reliable source of literary advice? If this is writing advice from isolated readers, without any precise literary credentials, I definitely wouldn't trust it. I will gladly accept advice from fellow women authors, but mainly because their advice is tempered by practical real-life evidence of its success in their works. Otherwise, it's akin to 'more hot babes wrestling in mud, please!' :(

That said, the suggested advice is spot on and sensible, something every male author needs to be familiar with. Most of it are the common sense, everyday facts of life that women face and men are utterly oblivious to.

The piece you selected (about men reflecting their own preferences and stereotypes) is spot on, and is a common problem with male authors (as well as women romance authors too). When one only writes from one's own perspective, catering purely to the assumptions of only one gender, then the writing will always be stilted.

Though, to be fair, I've never considered using "breasted boobily" before. I'm unsure WTF it even means. How the hell does one "breasted"?

You might come across it used to describe movement or action.

"He breasted the wave"

Sorry, but as a former surfer, I'm familiar with those examples. The correct form for each of those is "crested", not "breasted". The crest is an object peak, so cresting it means diving over the breaking portion of a wave, or running passing the highest point of the hill, not the hill's hipple.

"Brested the hill" at least makes sense, but a newspaper author wouldn't dare using that in a news release.

Whilst here in the UK it's mostly too cold for any sane person to surf, the language obviously isn't the same. Here it's the wave that crests, the surfer who breasts.

I also surfer in Lake Superior while living in Chicago, and the rocky coast of Maine while living in Rhode Island, so I'm familiar with surfing in the cold.

It may be a regional usage, if so I'd like to learn more about it so I'm at least aware of the variants, but I at least understand why "created" makes sense (i.e. highest peak/obstacle) while I don't comprehend what "breasts" have to do with challenges. So if you can enlighten me, please do. It's more my own limitation, and my wanting to master my faults, that's driving my curiosity.

By the way, my brother, a couple years older than me, continues surfing regularly, and while my hair grows only a couple inches each year, he regularly donates 16-18" inch locks every year due to the health benefits of regular salt-water exposure. However, my skin is better because of the prolonged sun exposure.

With regard to "challenges" imagine a ribbon across a finish line. What part of the runners body actually breaks the ribbon.? Typically a horse "wins by a nose" Being pedantic, you will often see a sprinter nod their head at the finish line, in doing so they are trying to 'cross the line' first. But watch other running races and you'll see them 'pushing out their chests' to achieve the same thing.

Does that help..??

I admitted, early on, that 'breasting the ribbon' makes perfect sense, and while 'breasting a wave' makes sense, it doesn't make as much sense of 'cresting a wave' or 'a cresting wave'. The others are just a stretch, and just don't seem like natural uses.

I guess I can see how the Brits took the one term and applied it to the others, but as an author, I wouldn't select the term in those other cases, as they're just weaker analogies (i.e. less effective terms in a literary sense).

But, I'm not specifically targeting a British audience either.

Never come across the expression, "toe the line" ??

Yes, but the meaning is entirely different. Rather than 'summitting' a difficult challange, 'toeing the line' concerns strictly following lines by an authority figure (i.e. cautiously covering your own ass), thus the idea of nervously approaching an imaginary line forms a wonderful visual analogy. Whereas referring to a hill to be mounted as a 'breast' doesn't.

But, I've made my point, and as people who've used the terms their entire lives, continuing to argue over it makes little sense. It's merely a regional usage. It simply doesn't matter whether I 'get it' or not. It's just not something which requires my approval for the Brits to use. I was just trying to fathom how the usage get applied to so many different situations.

The hill isn't the breast, the person "bresting it" is the breast(chest) in question.

Not so, grasshopper! "The breast of the hill" means the top of the hill eg the riders came over the breast of the hill. Or, in short, they breasted the hill.

AJ

Well, the traditional BrEng meaning refers to getting to the top of something with a humped shape. Breasting a wall seems to be an extension of that.

However breasting a tape does actually seem to mean hitting the tape with your mammaries. So you're right about the juxtaposition of two meanings.

Ain't etymology fun ;)

ETA - we Brits even go to the trouble of building concrete nipples on the top of our geographical hump shapes. They're called Triangulation Stations.

AJ

The hill isn't the breast, the person "bresting it" is the breast(chest) in question. It's a weird juxtaposition going on there.

Once again, when you 'breast' a peak, you don't 'press' your breasts against it. However, when you 'crest' a hill, you have reached the highest point (the definition of "crest").

Please, I'm trying to admit defeat here. Just let the argument go. Rather than continually belaboring the point because I just don't get you British terminology in this one instance, it's really not worth boring everyone continuing to pick fights over it.

I promise, I'll NEVER use the term, so my petty objects don't matter one wit!

P.S. Sorry Not_a_ID, for some reason, I assumed your response was from JoyR. I now see that you were essentially agreeing with me.

Yes, that is how it originated. But the phrase quickly spread, so now most lines that get toed are purely imaginary.

as a former surfer, I'm familiar with those examples. The correct form for each of those is "crested", not "breasted"

In my misspent youth when I spent a lot of time on the Sydney beaches the locals used to use both terms in specific ways. A surfer on a board rode the crest of the wave and had crested it well when the rode over the wave while paddling out again. Yet, when a person was swimming out without a board and the met a wave they either dived under it or they went through the crest of the wave when the breasted the wave due to the way it hit their breast and their head was above the crest of the wave. Mind you, in some areas where they did a lot of body surfing riding the crest of a waves while body surfing was sometimes called 'breasting the wave,' but I only ever heard that term used like that by the locals on the one beach.

Experience in this case. Mountains and Hills have "Crests"(tops) in that context, a wall would have a "crest"(top) as well. So when you pass over the crest(top) of the Mountain/Hill/Wall/Wave you have "crested" it.

Similarly, depending on the woman, a hill's breasts not be that significant or difficult to surmount, making it a weak analogy, at best. Even 'apex' (ex: She apexed the crest) makes more logical sense.

I'm not doubting JoyR's usage, I'm just trying to figure out the meaning behind the British phrasing, since it doesn't seem obvious. "Breasting" the finishing line does make sense, as that's typically the part of the torso which does make first contact, but as Not_a_ID said, the breasts are only indirectly associated with 'cresting' a hill.

Maybe I just need to see a few more, real-life examples.

"She was a big breasted woman."

Or "She was a stupendously breasted woman, but made for a terrible nuthatch!"

If your audience is men looking for stimulating erotica, then female characters must conform to what men want, not what women actually are. The same applies for an audience composed of women who want men that meet their ideals.

That applies, up to a point. But admitting that women's backs ache, or that their hair is a mess after kissing, or she wants to shower before climbing into bed won't spoil a story, and may inject a little real-world humanity most porn sadly lacks.

Sometimes, a little reality makes fantasy believable, while unrelenting male fantasies eliminates over half of your potential market. Many women read porn, making your writing less offensive is not going to hurt your tale.

You're not, but BuzzFeed is primarily an American operation, which makes their going for the British wordage a little weird.

No, all it means is that they employ a few British editors (possibly for their European readers).

Except I'm not an American...

How about "I tongued that literary analysis" (i.e. an 'in-depth, personal investigation')? That's opposed to "I mouthed the homework (i.e. I simply held the assignment in my hands until it finished the project for me). 'D

So you don't even need to present you torso over something. Evidently, you just need to turn you torso(breast) towards an objective.

Does that same logic apply to other forward-facing body parts? Is it possible to "Dick the hill", or "nose the finish line" or even "chin" the target?

Again, I accept the usage as uniquely British, but I'm still flummoxed over it's origin as an apt metaphor. Call me slow, but I hardly feel equipped to drop it into a story, even one taking place in Britain.

"Say chap, could you breast the bonnet for me?" (I can only picture myself getting bitch-slapped for such usage).