Forum: Author Hangout

Smart idea to research the ownership and the license terms, because some fonts are sold cheap for personal non-commercial use only, and some are given away free for non-commercial use only, while some are sold for commercial use. However, the ones Microsoft includes in MS Office should be available for commercial use with the fee as being part of the MSO purchase price simply because their main target for MSO is companies wanting it for preparing commercial documents, thus all in it should be available for commercial use. But check the terms of use, because the student packages aren't approved for commercial use in any manner.

Finally checked. The '7 commonly included' fonts on all the ereaders are, as much as I've determined, expensive fonts.

The one I've been using most, Monotype's Garamond, costs only $321. I don't mind paying $5 to $79 for fonts I like, but $321 will wipe out what little profits I generate. I can find cheaper fonts, but none of them are as universally accepted.

I found a bunch more than seem to be free and safe to use, but didn't check further because I don't write in languages like Urdu, Tamil, Thai, and Arabic. So I figured I'd skip on by.

CW,

I'm sure MS would charge you if they felt they could get away with it. They have an issue though, the commercial packages of MS Office are intended for commercial use and the courts will uphold that they can't charge you again for what's in what you've already paid for in buying the commercial copy of MSO. However, if you're using the trial version you get for free on a new PC or are using an Education package version you will find the EULA has a bit about not being able to use anything produced by the package for any commercial use at all. Thus, a kid with an education copy who uses it to prepare a sign advertising they're having a garage sale can be sued for that because it's a commercial usage.

Now, as to fonts. I bought a license to use Palatino Linotype several years ago, and that gave me the right to use the fonts for commercial activities. It also enables me to embed the fonts into the e-pubs I make so they display properly in any reader unless it's one of the few that doesn't support embedded fonts. It's because I have a legal license I stay with the old font package.

In my stories I use four levels of header and they differentiate due to colour, font size, being in italics and being in bold. Within the text I use normal, bold, italics, and colour as well as indentation to signify certain things. I use the same sets of fonts and options in all my stories. This gives the readers a sense of uniformity in my books and they know what i write will always present the same for them.

On the covers I sometimes use a different font, but generally stay with just the same sets in larger point sizes. All the images are either public domain or allowed usage under some version of copyright allowing me to use them in cover art, in only a few cases have I used images of my own. In a couple I approached the copyright holder and got their permission to use it. Managed to do well so far.

The Home and Office version is a commercial version while the Professional version is dearer due to have other capabilities in it.

TMI border fast approaching ...

ON SOL, I'd thought that was a foreign concept (as we specialize in all the topics no one else wants to discuss. On SOL, TMI is defined as stories which include daily (for the character) recitations of the 3 'S's (shit, shave and shower). I've only encountered one story that fit that category, but it was agonizing reading after the first three chapters! Unfortunately, it was well-written enough most of us put up it!!!

Thanks, DS. That's a decent 'free-font' source that I was unfamiliar with (I'd visited FontLibrary, but hadn't dug into it much yet). I've used other font libraries (dafont, myfont, etc.) but hadn't gotten into the free-font universe yet.

I suspect I'll purchase the standards, simply because I'm worried about ePub support (embedded fonts are catching on, but I'm not sure how much of an issue it still is). Still, these are decent alternatives.

I'll have to research the 'acceptance' rate on embedded fonts. I've been avoiding it, but if it works to a wide degree, I just might use these fonts instead of the M$ ones.

By the way, what's the consensus on these? Are any published authors using these, or are they being cautious and purchasing the full priced 'stock' fonts?

Update: Checked out the TheLeagueofMoveableType. I'm confused, though. Does the site really only have 7 fonts, total, or is the catalogue and search functions only open to paying members? The only fonts they show aren't well kerned and create fairly static type (i.e. the letters don't really fit together well).

I'll keep looking, though. Again, thanks for the lead.

According to wikipedia URW Palladio L is an Open Source version of Palatino so I'll check it out and may switch over for safety sake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatino#Free_and_Open_Source_versions_and_derivatives

One good thing about using a word processor is that it's real easy to change the font type for the whole document simply by selecting All and clicking on a new font type and it all changes. The various bold and italics bits will be in bold and italics, but in the new font.

Yeah, I just finished trying a book converted to the Palladio and found it didn't have enough white space for me due to the clumping you mention at 10 point.

I just found this website by the designer of the Palatino, it worth checking the many fonts he has as the prices are very reasonable, some from just $24.00

https://www.myfonts.com/person/Hermann_Zapf/

I just found this website by the designer of the Palatino, it worth checking the many fonts he has as the prices are very reasonable, some from just $24.00

Sorry, Ernest. That font cost $90 for an ebook license, which only applies to each ISBN (i.e. separate copy for each book, for each outlet (Amazon, lulu, etc.), and there are 12 different fonts in the one family. That means, for use in a single book, it could potentially cost you $1080 USD, a fairly standard price for most of the big font designer alternatives.

I just went thru the 10 best Garamond alternatives, with wide variations in looks, with an average price of $1,250.

You also have to be cautious, as many sites don't list ebook licenses, meaning you've got to contact the developers personally (via email) and ask the price they wish to charge.

That font cost $90 for an ebook license

Sorry, Mate, that must be deeper into the site than the page I was looking at. Kind of makes me glad I bought this way back when.

Whenever you see a font license, the assumption is it's for 'display only', and it's either for single individual use or they'll sell it for a set number of users.

The better sites list the different licenses, though the majority of sites require you to write the designer and ask them what they feel like charging you.

The most expensive licenses are app (the ability to include the font on millions of mobile apps) and ebook (which only allows you to use it for a single version of a book).

I've been learning a lot doing this research. I'll keep searching, but it'll be on a font-by-font basis, which takes a LOT of time!

If the license doesn't say "Embedded, App or eBook, then it's only a desktop font and you can't include it in an ebook. Even fonts that are listed as "100% Free" don't cover this usage.

I wonder if this applies to font purchases made prior to them applying such definitions and limitations. When I made my purchase, all those many years ago, the choices were personal use or commercial use of any sort and I chose commercial - but it seems things have changed in the last almost 20 years.

I wonder if this applies to font purchases made prior to them applying such definitions and limitations. When I made my purchase, all those many years ago, the choices were personal use or commercial use of any sort and I chose commercial - but it seems things have changed in the last almost 20 years.

The key is it's being "embedded". Your font will display fine in print, but supposedly, it won't support including the font in an ebook (it won't add the font correctly). I'll have to test that, to be sure, as you seem to be doing that now.

Beyond that, the only real limits are desktop (private or commercial) and web. Any graphic or use in images is included under general desktop usage.

I finally went back to defont.com and began searching on a font by font basis. I've found a couple decent header fonts. One designer offers "perpetual licenses" for around $100 (depending on complexity and number of fonts per family). That's a decent rate. However, I haven't found many good body test/normal fonts. Defonts is mostly a 'Fancy, Display' font source. I might have to search a few more sites to find decent body text fonts. The difference in kerning and letter paring is really apparent in text blocks of different (small) sizes.

I've got a feeling I'm safe because what i paid for was the use of the font in any situation, personal or commercial. Also, back then you could embed a font in a Word document or . If it went to court it'd come down to using the font in accordance with the rights restrictions placed on it at the time of purchase, and the only one was I couldn't sell it to another person. The fact they're doing different rights now can't affect what I bought back then.

I didn't embed the font in all my e-books, but have started to do so due to people complaining about how some of them read in their system fonts. I may just stop embedding them and it becomes a null issue for me.

Although, it'd be a good idea to check the rights of anything you do use. I found some Creative Commons Copyright licenses are good for any usage except front covers and back covers - thus they're eliminated as cover art. That's a option in the CCC license.

It's strange that they'd purposely limit their inclusion in graphics, as normally you have 'display' fonts and 'body' fonts. I'm guessing these were body fonts you were looking at, and they simply included the restriction to accentuate the difference. Or maybe it's just a control thing.

Meanwhile, my attempt to find alternate fonts has hit another reef. I've found several header fonts, but I'm having trouble with body fonts (fonts used for the body of the text). The problem is: I haven't found a single font in defont.com which supports smart quotes, ellipses, em or en-dashes. Several have accent marks, but that's about it. Guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

all sorts of "strange" (to you) character keys such as é^`¤èçà~^ùµ° as part of MS Word.

Ooh, you may have a copy of the Multiple Sclerosis Word not Microsoft Word!

Multiple sclerosis (MS), also known as disseminated sclerosis or encephalomyelitis disseminata, is a demyelinating disease in which the insulating covers of nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord are damaged. This damage disrupts the ability of parts of the nervous system to communicate, resulting in a wide range of signs and symptoms, including physical, mental, and sometimes psychiatric problems.

What's a QSDFG keyboard?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=keyboqrd

senjintenej must be French.

Apparently they have different keyboards in France. Technically it would be an AZERTY keyboard, QSDFG would be the middle row.

Like many Americans (I assume most of you are)

Never call an Aussie an American, them's fightin' words, and a duel will be held at dawn with matching Roman Candles at twenty paces.

French speakers, the snobby ones from Paris and environs think only they speak French.

Funny, but true, reflection. Having visited France multiple times, I have a different opinion of the France insistence on 'proper' French.

First of all, the problem is mostly focused in Paris. The French in the outlying areas of the country aren't as adamant.

But for my personal story:

The best approach to visiting Paris is to visit the areas where no one speaks English and the menu are all in French, don't speak a word of French (they'll never think it's correct anyway) and casually mention that you're from New York City. The Paritians will fall all over themselves, helping you out with everything!

The key, is that Paritians think they've got the best/worst attitude, but they all (collectively) consider NYC to be the most opinionated and pretentious people in the world, and most Paritians dream of visiting New York (the city).

You wouldn't think it would work, but every time I've visited Paris, I've had the same reactions by everyone I've met.

Talk about thread drift!

Shouldn't that be "Parisians"?

Yep!

Sejintenej, those would be part of the font's glyphs. Most of the fonts on the 'free' font sites doesn't have such niceties, although they have several accent marks for different (European) languages. The ALT or the '&347;' marks are html commands, which don't utilize font information.

Joe, it's pretty well established, across ALL computer uses, that reinstalling is not a second installation. In fact, if you buy a new computer, and transfer over all your software, that is also not considered a 'second installation'. However, if you load it on your wife's laptop, that would. The same is true if you install it on both your desktop (remember those) and laptop, though that depends on the individual license by the company.

The "strange keys" are there so the company can sell to more than a single language, and also allows you to use terms originating from that language. You can print with those, assuming they're part of the same font you've licensed. A few of those "strange keys" are part of the fonts' glyph, which as I said earlier, includes the "publishing marks" like ellipses, en an em-dashes, and smart quotes. Not all fonts contain those.

What you should be careful of, is having a font on your computer does not allow you to publish with it! It only entitles you to a 'display license', which means you can use it on YOUR COMPUTER ONLY, or create documents you use for your business ONLY. To publish, you need a separate license. But as this lengthy discussion shows, you don't need an "Ebook" license.

I just came across this:

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=OFL-FAQ_web

free use and embedding allowed for any reason. Now to see what's available.

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?item_id=OFL_fonts

got to check them out.

Actually, Ernest, Dominions Son suggested the League of Moveable Type, which emphasizes the OFL (Open Font license), but after reading it, I concluded that it was open for other font designers, but since they didn't stipulate whether others could use the fonts, I concluded it was a 'borrow and make something better' movement (i.e. it was free to develop, not to use).

These new links imply the OFL movement does allow free usage of fonts by designers and authors. For me, though, the lack of glyphs (only one had them) for the support of publishing characters (smart quotes, em-dashes and ellipsis) make them unusable. But it makes sense to keep reviewing these files, to see what comes up. I regularly check font designer websites to see what they have available.

I checked out the SIL fonts, lucky for me I can add them to my Linux repository check system and get them that way with ease. They seem capable of doing all I do with accents, graves, curly quotes, etc but not sure about changing. One is only a touch more cramped than Palatino while another is a little more spaced, but there's a good range of options there. Some of them even include foreign language, with many of them being Asian languages.

They seem capable of doing all I do with accents, graves, curly quotes, etc but not sure about changing.

Yeah, that was the first thing I did, check to see which acknowledged adding glyphs (I only counted one, though others might have added them without commenting on it).

The one I tried was added to Windows with no problem, though it was still a little rudimentary (the letters were a little too far spaced and didn't fit as much as I like).

You may like this source I discovered while looking for embeddable fonts. He had the best prices, best fonts, decent graphic fonts and the best terms. His site is

Just found this place as well, looks good:

http://arkandis.tuxfamily.org/index.html

Quote from the home page:

Welcome to the Arkandis Digital Foundry -ADF- homepage. This site has been created in order to offer a large collection of high quality fonts for publication and open source programs.

This collection came from my work, started a few years ago, now redeveloped for Scribus use, and has three purposes. The first is provide fonts to allow for artistic creativity in publications for those who cannot afford the cost of commercial font families. The second is to protect the works of professional font foundries and designers from the illegal use of their fonts in publications or for commercial use by providing these free alternatives. The last is that making fonts is a great pleasure.

Remember that Arkandis Digital Foundry offers only alternative font typefaces or derivative works that have the "look" of commercial fonts. If you need or want a specific commercial font, buy it. Thank you.

HARENDAL.H

that license aren't even mentioned at the pages you linked to.

The first SIL link is their FAQ about fonts and the second is the list of SIL OFL License fonts - never said it was all they did, just showed the links I found via a search on Free Font licenses. In another post I link to another organisation - ADF.

Correct. You're only responsible for what you distribute in your files.

Personally, I find this much attention to details a bit of a waste of time. I know that I configure all my reading software to override whatever style is embedded in the document and use my own preferred styles/fonts etc...

Personally, I find this much attention to details a bit of a waste of time. I know that I configure all my reading software to override whatever style is embedded in the document and use my own preferred styles/fonts etc...

Kim/John, this whole thread started because I misinterpreted a blog posting, and the more I researched it, the more paranoid I became.

You don't need an ebook font license, because most 'converter' programs strip all the font information out. If you include a font name in an ebook, or you publish a print book, then you need the generic 'display' font license, the cheapest one available.

Kim, as I explained late in the discussion, ebooks generally don't specify font information. If you publish on Amazon, they'll strip out all the font specific information. However, if you include font information (font names) into your epub, they you could be liable (say if you're trying to use a serif font).

You do need a font license for print books, but in most cases, the generic 'display' font license (the cheapest) is fine.