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Changing point of view between stories in a series

maracorby 🚫

A few times now I've run into this situation: I write a story in first-person point of view, but when I start thinking about a sequel, I feel like it needs to be third-person. Usually, I think, it's because the first story was pretty straight-forward, but a couple stories down the road, the world and characters are richer, and I want to show of it than just what the protagonist sees.

Has anyone else run into this - either as a writer or reader? I wonder if readers find it jarring, or if they even notice at all.

tendertouch 🚫

@maracorby

I don't remember running into it as a reader, though I might not have paid attention even if it was there. I will say that the sequel I'm back to working on for Charley and Claire and Protective Coloration is in third person. Charley and Claire is in first person, but Protective Coloration is in third person, and it seemed like the best way forward.

julka 🚫

@maracorby

Gideon The Ninth, by Tamsyn Muir, is written in third person perspective, following the titular Gideon

Harrow The Ninth, the followup, makes a radical shift into second person perspective, and Tamsyn makes use of the perspective as a device throughout the story.

Narrative perspective is a tool, and one that can be wielded skillfully. You wouldn't want to smash holes in your walls with a hammer and chisel, but careful use of the same hammer and chisel can produce works of art. If the story you want to tell needs to change perspective between books, between chapters, or even between lines, don't be afraid to do what the story needs. If it doesn't work, you can delete it and rewrite it.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@maracorby

I wonder if readers find it jarring, or if they even notice at all.

G Younger switched in his Stupid Boy series. I found it jarring and somewhat disengaging from the protagonist.

I think the problem is worse if you switch in the middle of a long series.

AJ

Big Ed Magusson 🚫

@maracorby

A key word in your question is "sequel." If it's a true sequel, with the same main POV character, it's likely to be jarring. If it's "a story in XXX universe" with a different POV character, it'll be fine.

I.e., writing Paul's POV in first person and then switching to Paul's POV in third person is very likely to throw people off. They're used to Paul talking in first person.

But if you have a story in the same universe from Chris's POV, that story can be in third person and readers won't mind.

If you do an ensemble POV story (multiple characters), you generally still have a main POV character or two. Those need to be consistent in POV. Mixing first and third can be done, but is also often jarring (has been for me).

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Big Ed Magusson

That's definitely true, as if it's a different story entirely, the assumption is that time has passed, and thus the character/protagonist isn't the same person, have grown since the first story, so they're speaking differently is more fitting. Though, it helps if you acknowledge it, having the protagonist explain to those he knew before what specifically triggered the switch. Though, if he's in an entirely new situation without any of the older characters, it's essentially a toss-up, as there's no reason to explain it, yet they still might feel the need to, anyway. (Ex: "Hey, I always heard you spoke of yourself in 3rd person/2nd person, so, why'd you stop?")

Paige Hawthorne 🚫

@maracorby

Lee Child -- in his Reacher novels -- writes some in the first person; others in the third. Now that his brother is taking over ... well, I'm not sure what he'll be doing, but I'm losing interest.

Paige

Vincent Berg 🚫

@maracorby

I've done it. I wrote my first story entirely in first-person, and HATED it, as it didn't give me the freedom to cover the other characters. So when I wrote the sequel (in a series of what ended up as six volumes) I switched to 3rd-Omni, and of course had to revise the first book to keep the series consistent.

However, there are other perspectives, which aren't common, yet they're perfectly legitimate: 1st-Omni, where the story is told in first-person, yet it has a Omniscient 3rd-person narrator, 3rd-Limited, where the protagonist ONLY knows what he's either experienced or has been told about. There are a few others, yet given my 3rd-Omni preference, I don't have much experience with them.

I played around with them, just to get a feel for their potential, yet that was the extent of my experimentation, just playing with them for a smaller chapter or two.

One golden rule in literature, is whatever works (i.e. is successful) becomes legitimate (i.e. accepted), so those separate techniques and approaches are thus maintained, however often they're use or not.

2nd-person, which is typically used exclusively for instruction manuals, is inherently difficult for fiction. It can be done, yet it's rarely easy or convenient. Though I've read a few that tried 2nd person perspective, I've never been impressed, finding it INCREDIBLY annoying (ex: "He (the protagonist) stood, surveying the room, before running in.").

The dialogue is still the same, as that's how people speak, and only a very few oddballs ever speak in 2nd-person (speaking about yourself in 3rd-person is actually much more common) though it's also pretty jarring. Yet in that case, in those cases, the jarring shock can actually be beneficial to the story, establishing the particular character as a non-traditional thinking, cutting his own path through life. Though again, it's not for everyone.

Replies:   awnlee jawking  LupusDei
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Though I've read a few that tried 2nd person perspective, I've never been impressed, finding it INCREDIBLY annoying (ex: "He (the protagonist) stood, surveying the room, before running in.").

You stood, surveying the room, before running in.

AJ

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@awnlee jawking

"You stood" is not 2nd person. Second person would be "Stand, survey the room and then run in."

Really, do you not grasp a single literary term? Trust me, it's not hard to lookup, if you'd try. 2nd-person is how instruction manuals are written. There IS no fictional usage of 2nd-person!

"You stood, surveying the room" is 3rd-Omni.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Vincent Berg

There IS no fictional usage of 2nd-person!

"You stood, surveying the room" is 3rd-Omni.

As to your first comment I quoted, of course there's 2nd POV in fiction. It's more often done in short stories, but also in novels. Google "2nd POV novels" for examples.

As to your second comment I quoted, "You stood" is not 3rd-omni. The difference between "You stand" and "You stood" is tense. Both are 2nd POV.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

After reading a medical article about declining male fertility, I had a bit of fun:

My male fertility
Your male fertility
His male fertility

Our male fertilities
Your male fertilities
Their male fertilities

AJ

julka 🚫
Updated:

@Vincent Berg

I don't fully understand why you've chosen this hill to die on so aggressively, but it's for sure the wrong hill. There is absolutely not a perspective that is restricted solely to instructional manuals, and even if there were, it's mind boggling to think there wouldn't be any fiction written in the form. When you figure out what you thought you were talking about, let me know because i'm incredibly curious.

Edit: wow, even between your two posts you escalate from "2nd person is difficult for fiction", which is true, and specify that you've read a few attempts and found them annoying, which I have no reason to not believe is true, and go all the way to "'You stood' is not second person", which is not true, and double down with "there is no fictional usage of second person" which is a) not even close to true and also b) directly contradicted by your earlier post.

Calm down, dogg. There will be other opportunities to be mad at AJ for being wrong.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Vincent Berg

There IS no fictional usage of 2nd-person!

TTRPGs...

tendertouch 🚫

@Vincent Berg

You might want to do a quick lookup. Tom Robbins' novel Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas is all in 2nd person, present tense. Never could finish it β€” for me it works best for shorter fictional pieces.

LupusDei 🚫

@Vincent Berg

1st-Omni, where the story is told in first-person, yet it has a Omniscient 3rd-person narrator

I think the way this works is still with first person narrator, but an older-self narrating from a knowledge of future. Like, say, an old man retelling his school age misdeeds. In such, the near-omni narrator, while immensely more knowledgeable than the character, is still fallible and not guaranteed to be reliable either.

Though I've read a few that tried 2nd person perspective, I've never been impressed, finding it INCREDIBLY annoying

So have I. I think the only medium that really tolerates second person writing is love letters, or maybe personal letters in general. Notice, those assume very specific reader. For a general reader, it's incredibly difficult not to make assumptions and decisions for the reader (and perhaps completely defeat the purpose and narrative if the author doesn't) thus taking the reader for a forceful ride they are very unlikely to accept. It perhaps could be framed so the "You" point to a predefined character and not directly the reader, but again, that's perhaps not most attempting it are trying to achieve.

In Latvian, there's a verb form, mood, that combines uncertain indirect knowledge reporting, future tense and necessity, and can work in second person (or any, the form itself doesn't have neither a person nor gender). Perfect for, say, relaying what a person might experience during a medical procedure or some such, yet even that becomes annoying beyond a few sentences, for being a quirky compound tense if nothing else. Yet I imagine it could be possible to write erotic scenarios in that way...

Approximation in English would read something like: "...reportedly, there will be a room on the right. You should go in there. You may meet a man, he probably will make you undress..."

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@LupusDei

I think the way this works is still with first person narrator, but an older-self narrating from a knowledge of future. Like, say, an old man retelling his school age misdeeds. In such, the near-omni narrator, while immensely more knowledgeable than the character, is still fallible and not guaranteed to be reliable either.

Wikipedia (spit!) says

A rare form of the first person is the first-person omniscient, in which the narrator is a character in the story, but also knows the thoughts and feelings of all the other characters. It can seem like third-person omniscient at times. A reasonable explanation fitting the mechanics of the story's world is generally provided or implied unless its glaring absence is a major plot point.

Seems very contrived to me.

AJ

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@maracorby

Perhaps you could select a different, probably new character, to be the POV character, rather than changing to a Third Person perspective.

Because I feel it essential to the stories I am writing, for the readers to not be fully aware of everything, and realize that the characters know even less.

Readers are aware that various characters are acting based upon very different information. Readers cannot be certain which perspective(s) are more correct.

Because the readers have more information than any particular character, it is somewhat similar to Third Person; but far from omniscient.

Could you write your sequel from another person's perspective? That might be less jarring.

akarge 🚫

@maracorby

Example of 2nd person narrative.:

You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy.

β€”β€ŠOpening lines of Jay McInerney's Bright Lights, Big City (1984)

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