I got a message here that the reader didn't like my short chapters. I do that to keep the story on page one of the updates. I see that spot as "the top fold of the newspaper. People log on, quickly scan the messages and new postings, and then go on about their other business. Plus after doing a short chapter my brain is worn out. Old man here.
Gaming the system this way may help in the short term, but may also backfire in the long term.
If you keep posting short chapters, eventually you'll be pegged as an author who posts short chapters all the time, and readers may either stay away because you don't give them enough to keep their attention for long, or they start waiting for you to finish posting the story in order to read it. So you may want to slip a long chapter once in a while to counteract that.
Personally, I stay away from authors who post short chapters. It's not worth my time to start reading if it won't last more than fifteen minutes.
I always check the 'more info' page for a serial. If the chapters are under 10 K, I won't read it until it's done posting. So if the description and codes are good, I add it to my library and wait for it to show up on the complete list.
Your chapters in your last story come in way below that threshold.
If the chapters are under 10 K, I won't read it until it's done posting.
That means you'd never read 20 of your 23 stories, because they're less than 10K words.
AJ
That means you'd never read 20 of your 23 stories, because they're less than 10K words.
I meant 10KB, not 10,000 words. Should have been clearer. The 'more info' page shows each chapter's size in KB, not in words.
But stories are different. If the whole story is short it doesn't matter as much because the whole thing in delivered in one shot.
John, I see your logic. The story should be done in probably three more chapters. You know Dickens would just put up small chapters to his works that were published in the daily paper. Londoners would clammer to see what happened next to Little Nell
You know Dickens would just put up small chapters to his works that were published in the daily paper.
That was more due to a limitation of the newspaper medium at the time than to any story or audience driven decision on Dickens' part.
You see the same thing with other authors that were originally published as newspaper serials in that era, such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
There is no good reason to impose the limitations of 19th century media on works published on/for the 21st century internet.
There is no good reason to impose the limitations of 19th century media on works published on/for the 21st century internet.
They're not being 'imposed', the chapters are short because that suits the author. And since the author isn't being paid by the readers, it's perfectly acceptable to ignore those who bleat for monolithic chapters.
A chapter is the intervening measure of writing between paragraph and book. You don't need to be ex-military to know that a good rule of thumb is for the number of paragraphs per chapter to comparable to the number of chapters per book.
AJ
They're not being 'imposed', the chapters are short because that suits the author.
Then he shouldn't have tried to justify short chapters by reference to 19th Century authors originally published as newspaper serials.
The reference demonstrates where and why the technique of deliberately writing short chapters has worked in the past.
Now all Taoman has to do is write like Dickens and publish chapters to a regular schedule ;-)
I normally write short chapters. I get e-mails in favour of longer chapters, but I also get e-mails praising the short chapters for making the stories easy to read.
AJ
The reference demonstrates where and why the technique of deliberately writing short chapters has worked in the past.
It worked in the past primarily because of the limitations of the media at the time. It was not done as some artistic or story driven choice by the authors.
If an author today deliberately chooses to copy that aspect of the style of those 19th century authors, then yes, that modern author is imposing on himself the limitations of 19th century media.
It worked in the past primarily because of the limitations of the media at the time. It was not done as some artistic or story driven choice by the authors.
James Patterson writes short chapters. He is in no way imposing on himself the limitations of 19th century media. And his books are very popular - not all of his readers can be 150+ years old.
AJ
James Patterson writes short chapters.
That's the thriller genre. And it works great for those who like thrillers. For those who like Fantasy and not Thriller, you won't understand the technique.
Wikipedia (spit!) says
Mystery, young adult fiction, thriller, comedy, realistic fiction, romance, science fiction
I'm surprised crime isn't in that list - that's where my library puts most of James Patterson's books.
Besides, there's no law that says that once all the world-building is out of the way, fantasy writing can't be thrilling.
AJ
James Patterson writes short chapters.
James Patterson doesn't use 19th century authors to justify his short chapters.
My point is not about short chapters as such, but about using 19th century authors who originally published as newspaper serials as justification for short chapters.
My point is not about short chapters as such, but about using 19th century authors who originally published as newspaper serials as justification for short chapters.
That's strange logic. The Trojan Horse happened in 1184 BC and the strategy is still used today because it works. Would you decry it because it was made of wood, the technology of the time?
AJ
The Trojan Horse happened in 1184 BC and the strategy is still used today because it works. Would you decry it because it was made of wood, the technology of the time?
Would I decry the use of the strategy in the abstract? No.
If you were arguing that a modern "Trojan Horse" had to be built to the size of the original because that's what the original was, then yes, I would deride that.
Again, the short chapters in the 19th Century newspaper serials was not a strategy chosen by the authors. It was entirely due to the limitations of the medium that the authors had to work around.
Again, the short chapters in the 19th Century newspaper serials was not a strategy chosen by the authors.
I think they chose to be published by newspapers. Consolidation into books came later, rather than the other way around.
I believe serial publication, with short chapters, still happens today in women's magazines and science fiction magazines, for example.
AJ
I think they chose to be published by newspapers. Consolidation into books came later, rather than the other way around.
Consolidation into books definitely came later, but you misunderstand the origins of those newspaper serial stories.
It is not the case that the author had a story that they wanted to publish in the newspaper as a serial. What actually happened is that the newspapers commissioned the authors to write stories explicitly for serialization in the newspaper. Chapter lengths were mostly if not entirely dictated by the commissioning newspaper based on the needs/constraints of the paper.
I believe serial publication, with short chapters, still happens today in women's magazines and science fiction magazines, for example.
And if you are writing a story today for serial publication in a print magazine, that's fine. But don't pretend that the chapter length is a artistic/style choice on the part of the author rather than a constraint dictated by the medium in which they are published.
I suspect the choice of length and frequency of publication evolved, rather than a newspaper editor unilaterally deciding that his newspaper needed a column of fiction to attract readers. The result, stories with short chapters updated regularly, worked because it suited everybody: the newspaper, the authors and the readers.
Authors weren't forced to write stories with short chapters - there were periodicals devoted to fiction that accepted longer-form stories. I have a couple of victorian erotic novels that were originally published that way.
AJ
It's good to have a reason for people to buy a newspaper every day, even when the actual news isn't very interesting.
Simple as that.
James Patterson writes short chapters.
Short chapters in a book are ok because you don't have to wait to read the next chapter. A short chapter on this site is different because you have to wait till he posts the next one be it an hour or days later. I find it a waste of time to spend 10 minutes and not get much from it.
Short chapters in a book are ok because you don't have to wait to read the next chapter. A short chapter on this site is different because you have to wait till he posts the next one be it an hour or days later. I find it a waste of time to spend 10 minutes and not get much from it.
This was posted while I was writing my last post.
EXACTLY!
There is no good reason to impose the limitations of 19th century media on works published on/for the 21st century internet.
Until a couple of years ago, I think 2021, if you posted more than 55,000 characters, or roughly 8,000 to 9,000 words; SoL automatically broke your chapter or story into multiple pages.
This was also about how much I could write and edit per week.
It seems quite a few writers here adopted similar chapter lengths, for the above reasons. Several very good serials are being written to that "standard" even now.
Using MS Word or Libra Office Word, this is roughly 11 pages (8 1/2 × 11") or 22 to 25 pages in a paperback novel format.
Until a couple of years ago, I think 2021, if you posted more than 55,000 characters, or roughly 8,000 to 9,000 words; SoL automatically broke your chapter or story into multiple pages.
Which is not something I would consider a short chapter.
You know Dickens would just put up small chapters to his works that were published in the daily paper. Londoners would clammer to see what happened next to Little Nell
Did Londoners have the abundance of choice that the modern internet user has?
He had captive audience. Your audience isn't captive.
I got a message here that the reader didn't like my short chapters. I do that to keep the story on page one of the updates.
I write short chapters (1,000–3,500 words on average, although I could have a 6,000 word chapter too). But I don't do it for your reason.
My writing style is heavily influenced by the thriller genre where short chapters are common. It's done to create suspense, intrigue. To have page turners at the end of a chapter (not necessarily a cliff-hanger). But each chapter is a complete scene, although some chapters, typically the shorter ones, are transitions.
Posting a chapter a week isn't what influences my writing. I write as if the reader has the entire story in front of him and can simply begin the next chapter. I just checked the current novel I'm posting. The whole thing is available on Bookapy, but I'm posting a chapter a week for those who want to read it for free. Based on SOL's statistics, the 38 (out of 70) chapters posted range in size from 6kb to 25kb.
I've learned to live with those who say they don't like short chapters. They should wait until the whole story is posted.
However, long does not mean more interesting. I've read so many stories on SOL where I wish I could edit them and get rid of all the duplication and boring stuff. In effect, making them shorter but stronger.
3,500 words isn't a short chapter, except here. For traditionally published books, 3,500 would be nearly average chapter length. Not just for thrillers. across all publishing 2k-4k is the average, according to publishers weekly and several other similar places. SOL has a skewed view of what constitutes a "short" chapter, because it's read serialized.
Since this site let's you see all updates since the last time you were on, it wouldn't matter if it was the first page or the 3rd page.
I don't care for short chapters..
I don't care for short chapters..
For those who feel this way, is it when a short chapter is posted and you have to wait for the next one to be posted…
…or short chapters in general, even if all you have to do is "turn the page" to start the next chapter when it's there?
I don't mind short chapters, but I haaaaate reading serials that are still in progress. I almost never read anything till it's done, and usually don't read a series (unless it's deliberately open-ended) till it's complete.
The one problem with waiting till the end is that could be years of waiting. By then you probably forgot about it.
Always a danger, yes. But I've never come close to running out of things to read, even with forgetting a few here or there.
I don't mind short chapters, but I haaaaate reading serials that are still in progress.
That's my point. Nothing wrong with short chapters if all you have to do is "turn the page" to start the next chapter.
The problem has to do with serial posting. I won't change my writing to accommodate that. After all, it's only temporary. People who don't like that should buy the novel (if one is available) or wait until the complete story is posted.
We keep talking about short chapters as in length (which no one has defined what length is short). But I believe when short chapters fail is when nothing happens in the chapter. That's the real problem. Not the number of words.
I've read long chapters where nothing happens to move the plot forward. Just the same old same to fill up space, giving the SOL reader what they want — a long chapter (a lot of words to read).
Has anyone here ever really read the TOCs of Ernest Bywater's books?
While his books are split into SOL-chapters, the TOCs list chapters (in red), sub-chapters (in blue) and sections (in black).
Just an example:
"Mack" is 15 SOL-chapters, between 30 to 57 KB (11 in the forties).
I created an eBook by removing the SOL-chapter breaks and restoring his original 21 chapters. Their sizes (as shown by Calibre's eBook editor) span from 3 KB (chapters 17 and 18) to 123 KB (chapter 3).
BTW, his other books are similar. (I know, because I did this editing with all his books I liked).
HM.
Has anyone here ever really read the TOCs of Ernest Bywater's books?
Yes. He split his stories into reasonably consistent SOL chapter lengths because that works best for publishing serially.
AJ
I do that to keep the story on page one of the updates. I see that spot as "the top fold of the newspaper. People log on, quickly scan the messages and new postings, and then go on about their other business.
Yeah, I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but let me tell you how my brain works:
If I see a story that's merely 10k words after SEVEN chapters, and posting those seven mini-chapters still took the author four whole weeks... I'm just gonna stop looking at the story.
The size and posting time alone gives me two impressions:
First, this is not going to be a proper story. It's going to be an assembly of writing prompts.
Second, IF this is a story, it's gonna take the author years to finish it.
I started going on MSN News site kinda like Yahoo News and noticed some stories require you to load page after page just to read one story.
What would be worse than a bunch of short chapters is when all short chapters end with a cliffhanger.
My preference would be longer chapters (and longer stories), but I don't mind shorter chapters if there's a frequent posting schedule. I'm reading one now with very short chapters, which is mildly annoying, but they post every night.
What has killed many very good stories for me is an erratic posting schedule, with weeks or more between updates. That just puts me off completely.
If they ever finish I might go back and read them, but many times I just forget about them entirely.
One of the nice things about this site is if you clicked on a story before, the title changes color/colour to let you know there is a update. But the change only lasts so long and there have been some stories that took 8-9 months or longer between updates and the color/colour was gone. At least some of those would post a multi-page chapter to make up for it.
Interesting how the medium/venue shapes your writing. When I wrote 'Off The Deep End' it was published serially and I was writing as I went (until the last 8 chapters when I waited until I was done and scheduled weekly). I had some super short chapters because it worked that way (like the letter from Nao, or the news article).
In my current WIP, I am aiming for consistent chapters of 2500-3500 words in the downdraft, on the basis that for a regularly scheduled release, that will result in less complaints about chapter length but will allow me to move the story along. I think that in editing after I finish this downdraft, it will end up being 3000-4000 words per chapter as I fill in holes and fix bits.
But because, events thought I'm writing a novel and planning a wide release, I'm aware of how it plays out on SOL.
Chapters perform an actual function in fiction, they aren't just an arbitrary length.
If your short chapters suit your writing style and they actually are chapters, in a structural sense, then I wouldn't worry about complaints. Your stories will attract those readers who like your style. This applies to chapter length just as much as it does to any other element of writing. Those people who don't like your writing will move on.
Be cautious, however, to make sure that your chapters are chapters and not just page breaks. If fitting your posts to an arbitrary length interrupts story flow this is likely to lose readers who otherwise like your style. If you're lucky they might read the full thing once it's posted, but you've got to remember there's a lot of stories available. Unless someone is really invested in your story so far they have no real incentive to return to something that already drove them away once before.
I write long chapters - 25,000 words or more (the longest chapter has been 40,000+). My justification is that I only release a chapter every 3 or 4 weeks, so I want to give my readers some decent 'meat'. Plus, I want each chapter to be somewhat self-contained, where it covers a certain plot element, finishes off at a logical point, and - when I'm it the writing mood, I don't want to stop.
I've noticed very long chapters are common in British science fiction, a good example being Peter F Hamilton.
Hamilton's stories usually have upwards of a dozen or more major POV characters, in different locations and times, telling different aspects of an overarching story. The long chapters allow readers to really invest in each story for a while before jumping to the next element.
I write long chapters - 25,000 words or more (the longest chapter has been 40,000+).
Wow, that is long. 40,000+ words is novella length.
@Switch Blayde
40,000+ words is novella length.
>40,000 words is a novel.
AJ
Depends on the genre. In science fiction and fantasy that would be well below typical novel length.
>40,000 words is a novel.
I always thought around 70k words was the minimum for a novel.
I always thought around 70k words was the minimum for a novel.
Adult Fiction
Literary and Commercial Fiction: 80,000-110,000 words
Romance: 80,000-100,000 words
Category Romance: 40,000-75,000 words
Mystery and Thriller: 70,000-110,000 words
Sci-Fi and Fantasy: 90,000-125,000 words
Historical Fiction: 80,000-120,000 words
So by this source, 40K would be novel length only for Romance. 70K would be the bottom end for Mystery and Thriller, and the bottom end would be 80K for just about everything else.
Romance: 80,000-100,000 words
Category Romance: 40,000-75,000 words
So by this source, 40K would be novel length only for Romance.
Not Romance. That source says Romance is 80k-100k. Category Romance is 40k-75k. I never heard of Category Romance and after googling it, am not sure what it is.
I never heard of Category Romance and after googling it, am not sure what it is.
I googled it myself. My take: Mass produced romance novels produced as a series.
I suspect they're referring to the monthly books like Harlequin Romance and similar.
Short lengths also count as novels for middle grade and some YA titles, although it varies. Some regions do not use the term "novel" for youth books at all. Also, YA tends to shift over time quite a bit more than other "genres" since YA isn't actually a genre, just a marketing category.
Category Romance is indeed just that. It's a different market (with overlapping audiences) from larger commercial Romances.
YA isn't actually a genre, just a marketing category.
I once read an interesting article by an author who wrote a novel where the main characters were teenagers. It was rather dark. I don't remember the details, but maybe they were orphaned, abused, fighting to survive, etc. I think they were brother and sister.
Her dilemma was whether to call it YA. If YA is when the main characters are a certain age, then her novel would be YA. But if the subject is what made it YA, then her novel would not be YA. And I think there was mention of the audience. She didn't think the age group for her targeted audience was YA.
From what I've read, it's highly unlikely the author would be the person to make that call.
Now, if it were their first book and they didn't have an agent yet, then target audience might make a difference in terms of which publishers or agents they contacted, but that's about it.
Heck, authors don't even have a lot of control over a book's title. Even best-selling authors have had their titles changed by their publishers. Mercedes Lackey has commented on this and she's published 145 books at this point.
From what I've read, it's highly unlikely the author would be the person to make that call.
Unless the author is self publishing.
To put it another way, if the themes of the story are concerns of actual teenagers, it's YA, while if the themes reflect the concerns of adults looking back on when they were in their teens, it's a adult story.
The actual darkness/grimness won't affect the label much. Some teens live very dark lives, and seeing in fiction ways of living through that is powerful stuff.
YA writers talk about this stuff a lot.
if the themes of the story are concerns of actual teenagers
Even then, not necessarily. A lot of Sarah J Maas' books are not necessarily for teens, either in content or story, but they tend to be sold as YA purely because her first books were YA so she's known in that space. She's even commented on this in interviews.
A novella tops out at 40,000 words. Anything longer should be classed as a novel.
HG Wells' 'The Time Machine' is classed as a novel, but scifistories reckons it's only 32,409 words long.
A better metric, although difficult to measure objectively, might be the amount of plot. Some 200,000 words SciFi/Fantasy books would only count as novellas - lots of world-building, minimal plots
AJ
A novella tops out at 40,000 words. Anything longer should be classed as a novel.
Why instead shouldn't anything under 80K or 70K be considered a novella?
La.
Synonyms of Shangri-la
1
: a remote beautiful imaginary place where life approaches perfection : UTOPIA
2
: a remote usually idyllic hideaway
Move the n in shangri la and you get shagrin la.
So my life approaches perfection. With a small change. But I don't want to live in either LA. My car is a VW Jetta, could I change that to a Jetla?
Because most classic novels, before poor editing and bloatware became popular, would then be considered novellas?
Perhaps there should be a new name for single stories over 120,000 words. An augmentive + novel might work.
In modern English, augmentatives can be created with the prefixes:
over-: e.g., overlord and overqualified.
grand-: e.g., grandmaster and grandparent.
super-: e.g., supermarket and superpower.
mega-: e.g., megastore and megastar.
arch-: e.g., archrival and archangel.
Since the early 1990s, the prefix über- or uber- has also frequently been used as a borrowing from German.[1] The suffix -zilla, expressing a monstrous quality, can also be considered an augmentative form.
How about supernovel?
AJ
Too close to supernova.
If the story sold a really large number of copies (ie several orders of magnitude more than the 100 or so to be ranked a New York Times Bestseller), it would be a supernoval supernovel ;-)
AJ
I just found this conversation and I have to point out chapter 25 of "Wendolyn Too. Number 4 in STOPWATCH" by Old Man with a Pen. Six paragraphs starting with "There's nothing to write about here." and ending with "If you absolutely have to read something while you're waiting for chapter 26...". Brilliant interlude in a crazy story. Chapters 1 to 31 are worth reading too.
