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Divining rods. Do they work scientifically? Or is it magic?

PotomacBob ๐Ÿšซ

Are divining rods a dependable way to find underground water? If they work, why do they. Or it it all just old folklore, to be treated like stories of magic?

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

Witching for water works. But how it works is unknown.
I haven't meet the person yet who couldn't do the metallic version with a couple of old coat hanger wires.
Water on the other hand, isn't so easy.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

I am not aware of any successful attempts to scientifically test divining rods. I would put it into the folklore/magic category.

Also there are a lot of different types of divining rods and any validity might depend on specifics of the type of rod.

One type I've seen which might plausibly (again I don't know of any research testing this) have some validity is two thin L shaped metal antenna like rods. Ground water, because of high dissolved mineral content can carry electrical currents. This could lead to anomalies in the local magnetic field at the surface that might be detectable by this style of divining rod. On the other hand, there are a lot of other things that could also cause such magnetic anomalies. And with access to modern tech you would probably be better off using a proper magnetometer.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Using the L shaped metal rods is for finding metal not water. Water requires specific wood types, usually a hard wood.

For the former, hold by the short end facing the long end of the L out, one in each hand. Hold your fist together and the rods loosely parallel to each other.

Lay a piece of metal on the ground and walk across it. The rods will open on their own. Anyone can do this version. As for how this version works, magnetics and earth currents gets my vote. Copper doesn't work for this btw. Needs to be coat hanger wire or other pot metal to work.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Remus2

Using the L shaped metal rods is for finding metal not water.

I've seen video of people claiming to use that technique for finding water.

ETA: Here's a video that show that technique explicitly for water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=042N05bmlL4

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

I was taught only wood on the reservation. Maybe it works for them, but it didn't work at all for anyone on the res.

I'll stick with what I know.

Of course, many streams have trace metals in them washed out from ore deposits, so it may be the metal they were reacting to in the video.

ETA: It would be easy enough to test. Just find a pond and see if you get a reaction. Just make sure no metal is around.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Remus2

I was taught only wood on the reservation. Maybe it works for them, but it didn't work at all for anyone on the res.

I found another video that was using the two metal rods (aluminum in this case) more as a general divination technique, with crossed for yes and apart for no.

That video started with supposedly trying to find buried silver, but after getting a "hit" he proceeded to ask the rods a series of yes/no questions.

Is it still there? (yes)

Is it more than a meter deep? (yes)

Is it more than 2 meters deep? (No)

Is it more than 1 and a half meters deep? (no reaction).

I didn't watch that one long enough to see if he tried to dig it up on the video.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

Asking questions implies an intelligence on the other side to answer them.
That I do not believe.

As for dousing/witching, I have done that personally and definitely believe to be more than old folklore. In my view, it's a phenomenon that is simply misunderstood and usually dismissed for lack of documented science.

Replies:   LupusDei
LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ
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@Remus2

No "other side" in those, the subject of exploration is one's own intuition, revealed and presented by the physical movement of the unstable or strained indicator.

For random yes/no questions I would suggest a simple pendulum, made of light thread and a not too large object with some perceived relevance to the divination. Like, a ring. Hold freely, over another object of some relevance or the other palm, or palm of another, or without anything. Declare "yes" as circling and "no" as straight line pendulum movements or vice versa, setting it in by a couple of obvious questions and there you go. If one needs or feels like it, direction of pendulum can gain relevance. Perhaps it wants to say "yes" by swinging towards/away and "no" by swinging across today, or those have different meanings in some other way. It must to be declared and tested, not interpreted on the go as that is too prone to bias.

Anyway, it takes a lot of confidence that you are not lying to yourself to take those results seriously, but if one feels a need to resort to such methods it can help.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@LupusDei

Not much more that a Ouija board in the form of sticks or wires then.

Replies:   LupusDei
LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ
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@Remus2

Yes, exactly. But that's all one can expect for random "divination" questions.

Dowsing, as such, on other hand, there's really something rather undeniable, even if there may not be a know objective sensor other than unconventional perception on the outer reaches, so the presentation tools used are similar in appearance and function.

I do believe that indeed, for all that can be easily measured, it's the operator moving the tool with no outside forces upon it, even though he may claim the fresh symmetrical willow axil is nerly breaking his hands out if tried to hold in place.

LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@PotomacBob

It works, in general terms - for what it's worth.

Deemed pseudo science there has been little serious work on it. A group of Latvian physicists had, apparently, ample free time amidst funding shortages in the mid-nineties and given the surge of popular interest in paranormal (locally it is still common to order "bioanomaly" mapping for most construction projects) wrote an open minded book. Inconclusive, as expected, but with some surprising findings. From a few I own on the subject I count it as the most reputable.

The lines are apparent objective reality affecting vegetation and animal behavior in discernible but weak and often deniable ways, and yes, can (but not necessarily do) serve as groundwater flows.

Some, but not all of those anomalies can be traced to micro faults in the bedrock. No direct effects on human health beyond placebo/nocebo effects can be proven. No folk method of "diverting", neutralizing or otherwise manipulating the "energy flows" stand to double-blind testing.

The exact instrument used doesn't matter, as so far as the operator is familiar and comfortable with the technique and the tool used is sufficiently unstable. Operator move it unconsciously (hopefully) upon variance of electric conductivity of his/her skin. Why, or how, there's that variance in the skin occurs is anyone's guess, as there's no reliably detectable environment variables at least at the resolutions available to unfunded physicists spending free time on oddball research.

The results aren't strongly dependable and are easily influenced by bias, especially prior knowledge or preconceptions of the operator. The variation of results seems to be low though, until you realize that to obtain independent results double-blind techniques of experimentation should be used: even simple presence of a person knowing the "expected" results will likely lead to confirmation of those... and that's a point scientists drop their tools in the air and run screaming.

Nevertheless, they claimed to have gone as far as hooking rather crude sensors package on the hand of a test subject and acquired automated area mapping from low flying aircraft.

Descending into magic a little, some practitioners discern three types: chaotic anomalies mapping close to bedrock faults, leylines, and "cosmic rays" (in descending order of power and ascending order of regularity). Where, leylines form a large scale, global network of hard to describe structures (some try to map to dodecaedron or other geometric magic encompassing the planet with little provable success or explanatory pover). The "cosmic rays" is the weakest, but tightest grid, roughly orthogonal net with the general cell size and orientation easily predictable by geographic coordinates, not for local deformations caused by... something. Possibly those same micro faults some count as the only true thing there is in all this. Network nodes allegedly has provable higher lighting hit probability, feeding speculation on lightning activity as the source of the network. All those narratives can easily be just human natural desire to find nonexistent patterns in chaos.

Disclosure: I'm a practitioner believing in reality of the phenomenon even though not active. I use no tools at all: in the right state of mind I feel different tingles in my palms and interpret those. It's very subtle, easy to miss, and as far I can tell, there's way more information present than most want to know, not that I could interpret any of it. Just point, say, "there might be something too, but if you think about a well, I would say that's rather the place. But over there, it's all old alternative riverbed anyway, so of course there will be water if you want a pond." Were I'm living, there's many shallow layers of groundwater almost anywhere anyway (and the few exceptions mostly easy to spot for anyone with minimal spatial comprehension) so I literally can't fail. Thus I try my hardest to stay away from giving such advice.

I mentioned mapping for construction and one time I worked architectural design adjacent I have done my own surveys for comparison in sufficiently double blind way, in secret before the "official" results from money taking "professional" practitioner(s) come in. Most times I could look at those and say, yeah, maybe, even if I would see more nuance, a few times I had been baffled by what they presented. I never challenged those anyway, as I choose to believe those health and construction longevity/stability issues people seem to worry about around here are so far outweighed by other more controllable factors there's little if any relevance.

StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

Are divining rods a dependable way to find underground water? If they work, why do they.

Yes, they are - typically with about a 95% accuracy rate. I know doodlebuggers that have used dowsing for oil as well (which they back up with other methods, to keep their bosses happy). As for HOW it works, no real scientific explanation.

I mean, some people seem to more in tune with the magnetic lines of the Earth, similar to birds. I'm one of those people that has an innate direction finder. I always know North - even if it's cloudy, night, or I'm in a big and confusing building.

richardshagrin ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

DOW SING is a combination of Declaration of War and making vocal music (sing).

Ernest Bywater ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

While some are proven to be fakes there have been many who have proven the verifiable ability to divine the locations of water, oil, and some have an affinity for finding certain minerals. The fact some people can do it repeatedly in different locations means it works, and thus it must have some sort of scientific basis behind. However, the real question is: Do we know and understand the scientific basis behind it? And that answer is a resounding: No, we don't.

Like a lot of things in nature, we can observe it but we can't always understand it.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Ernest Bywater

there have been many who have proven the verifiable ability to divine the locations of water, oil, and some have an affinity for finding certain minerals.

Yes, but prove the divining rod has anything to do with it.

That's the problem with lie detectors and why they aren't admissible as evidence in US courts. The scientific evidence on lie detector machines is that the operator is equally effective at detecting lies with or without the machine, so the machine adds nothing.

Replies:   LupusDei
LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Indeed, the indicator rods or wooden stick is just that, indicator.

Whatever the technique, it is held in unstable or strained way, so that tiny movements in the wrists and loss of parallelism between hands will create the apparent inadvertent movements. The amazing thing is that walking over the field several times the apparent movements happen at approximately the same locations, even with the operator blindfolded.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@LupusDei

So the answer to the OP's question is effectively no. Divining rods do nothing, it's all in the user. :)

Replies:   LupusDei
LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

Yes and no. It's all the user, but divining rods is a technique that let visualize information the user would otherwise be unable to consciously sense (with rare exceptions like me, who may not need them for dowsing), while almost anyone can use the rods with good enough results (with exceptions that may be more to do with distrust than disability).

Can science explain why? Not quite, not to the part of telling what exactly is sensed by the user. Otherwise the likely answer is: "the user has otherwise unrecognized sensations that interfere with ability to continously hold hands in perfect spatial orientation" thus the rods move.

Is it magic? Depends on definition. If "magic" is "apparently real effect without scientific explanation" then yes, this may very well be closest to real "magic" we may have.

irvmull ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

We have had solid proof that homing pigeons can find their way home for thousands of years, yet scientists are still debating theories about how it works.
Infrasound, variations in atmospheric gasses, magnetic lines of force, position of the sun...

No reason humans could not have some weak abilities that aren't developed, understood or proven.

If that's the case, it might be because birds don't sit around and dismiss their feathered friends' homing abilities as "superstitious magic".

rkimmelerre ๐Ÿšซ
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@PotomacBob

For decades James Randi was offering at least a million dollars (I believe it eventually got up to $8 mil) to anyone who could prove paranormal powers. Dowsers would have qualified, and at least one tested on a course where multiple pipes were buried under dirt, with water flowing through some pipes but not others. The dowser was not able to predict which pipes had water better than random chance would explain.

I don't believe it's real, but if it is anyone who can do it gave up a chance at a whole lot of money.

ETA: the Wikipedia page about the challenge has details about the test I described and mentions two other attempts that failed. I was mistaken about the size of the prize, it was only $10K at the time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@rkimmelerre

I don't believe it's real, but if it is anyone who can do it gave up a chance at a whole lot of money.

Anyone who can really do it probably wouldn't want the notoriety that would go with such a prize. The one offering the prize would want to publicize the win.

And if the person offering the prize was agreeable to keeping it under wraps, you would have no way of knowing if the prize has been claimed or not.

Paladin_HGWT ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

Not relating to the OP, but to several other posts in this thread.

Not detecting water or minerals; rather detecting human beings. {To a degree also detecting IEDs/"Boobytraps"}

I remember on particular Instructor, a Ranger, who advocated that clever (combat oriented) soldiers should become "ZBMs" ("Zen Budha Masters") and "Become One with the Battlefield" he often said it with a bit of levity (which is a technique that often promotes soldiers learning and retaining key subject matter).

The ability to detect threats, despite no obvious signs is something mentioned by some combat veterans.

I believe it is partly innate {or some individuals just don't suppress such talent(s)} but it may be developed.

Standard procedure (and training) for dismounted patrolling is to take periodic (randomly) "Look and Listen" pauses. In dense terrain or at night, it is likely that you may hear an enemy before you see them. Still, you keep your eyes moving, because you may detect a very quiet enemy or other threat by visualization.

I believe in these capabilities, and whatever my innate talents, I learned to develop them as well. I experimented and developed these abilities in Training, and then applied them in combat.

Of course, I detected most threats through trained observation, the use of technology, mistakes by my opponents, and other mundane means. However, there were quite a few times that I detected enemies, or other threats that other soldiers with me did not detect. I suspect that sometimes it was merely subliminal clues, such as scent of body odor, cigarette smoke, a slight noise or movement that I did not Consciously detect.

Perhaps some of my abilities were just greater experience, and things I learned out in the woods (although I was born and grew up mostly in the suburbs; I did hike, fish, ride horses, etc. out in the woods many summers, as well as part of the time in the Spring and Fall too; not to mention Winter skiing, and other activities).

Too many occurrences were inexplicable. I detected enough threats (ambushes, IED's, etc.) that most of my fellow soldiers gave some respect to my abilities. (Not that I was unique.)

Sometimes I had opportunities to try to analyze what it might have been that I detected. However, I was more focused on my duties and survival to conduct a :"scientific" study.

Replies:   Remus2  LupusDei
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Paladin_HGWT

I suspect that sometimes it was merely subliminal clues, such as scent of body odor, cigarette smoke, a slight noise or movement that I did not Consciously detect.

My father told me that his ability in this regards was the only reason he survived WW2.
He knew several soldiers with similar abilities. He always told me not to attempt rationalizing the ability. In his opinion, it didn't matter where the ability came from, only it's presence mattered. If you questioned it in the moment, it could get you killed.
According to him, he didn't question it until he was safely back state side with my mother.

LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ

@Paladin_HGWT

While some of it may be the some class of senses I wouldn't mix it together.

While avoided recent military service out of historical reality reasons, I sometimes half-seriusy claim to have retained my berserker training from a previous life (possibly one before previous even, but the one between was short and unremarkable if it was).

So yes. There's lots of clues of course. Cigarette smell, for example, even without active smoking, carry for dozens if not hundreds of yards over natural backgrounds. Most people don't realize how telling inverted leaves or branches are. Tire marks can be seen even in short lawn grass for days. And so on. In the darkness... exposed parts of human bodies glow, at least in the enhanced low light vision I possess naturally.

Then there's blind hand-to-hand combat. For example in the already several times mentioned random street fight in high school, despite distraction of having my face sprayed with tear gas and effectively blind I didn't lose track of my three attackers (even though unsure was there a fourth of them not actively participating) and was still able to use terrain to my advantage. I call that "proximity sense" registering moving mass. Of course hearing could explain most of it, with rest being just visualization, spatial comprehension that allows to build wireframe model of the scene to be analyzed in real time from an outside point of view if I fancy.

Some of it could be explained in flows and concentrations of "magic" energies sensed by not described senses, but I wouldn't be complacent over anything such.

irvmull ๐Ÿšซ
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@PotomacBob

Perhaps the heightened awareness such as in combat situations was the norm for humans in the past.

Most of us now alive have been able to survive without exercising those abilities.

If you want an example of how oblivious to reality most people are, ask a motorcycle rider. People pull out in front of them all the time, despite the flashing headlights and loud mufflers.

Replies:   Paladin_HGWT  PotomacBob
Paladin_HGWT ๐Ÿšซ
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@irvmull

Perhaps the heightened awareness such as in combat situations was the "normal" for humans in the past.

In the past most combat closely resembled a "rugby scrum" conducted in an open field. Many if not most of the combatants were recruits/conscripts from urban areas or peasant farmers (who were discouraged, if not forbidden from leaving the vicinity of their fields to be able to learn "fieldcraft" in the woods; the game, lumber and other resources "belonged" to the nobles).

I am referring more to the Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Hellens (Greeks), Romans, Indians (sub-continent), Chinese and other Asians. "Barbarians" such as some Gauls, Germanics, and most pre-Columbian tribal peoples of North & South America, were more prone to "skirmishing" raiding, and other forms of "low-intensity warfare" (Aztecs, Mayans, and others were urbanized too).

Unconventional forces such as Specularis "Rodger's Rangers" or Irish "raiders" (Cattle Thieves) were not all that common; if they were present alongside an army they were usually rare individuals of unusual background.

Hunters have always been a tiny fraction of civilization. Even among the pre-Columbian peoples of North America, who were an anomaly, and sparse population in a vast land, most people were gatherers, or "beaters" or in other ways supported the annual buffalo hunt; only an "elite" few were "The (Great) Hunters" and experienced at woodcraft/fieldcraft.

Replies:   irvmull
irvmull ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Paladin_HGWT

In the past most combat closely resembled a "rugby scrum" conducted in an open field. Many if not most of the combatants were recruits/conscripts from urban areas or peasant farmers (who were discouraged, if not forbidden from leaving the vicinity of their fields to be able to learn "fieldcraft" in the woods; the game, lumber and other resources "belonged" to the nobles).

Your sense of the past seems awfully limited.

I think that humans evolved long before there were any "urban areas" or "farmers". At least hundreds of thousands of years.

We're talking about abilities and heightened awareness that helped humans find food and water, while avoiding being eaten. Some of those could have been passed down from our pre-human ancestors.
Everybody should be aware that "combat" isn't a recent invention - nor is it something done only by humans.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@irvmull

We're talking about abilities and heightened awareness that helped humans find food and water, while avoiding being eaten. Some of those could have been passed down from our pre-human ancestors.
Everybody should be aware that "combat" isn't a recent invention - nor is it something done only by humans.

Heightened awareness or hyper awareness either way. Every human is capable of it, but few are trained to use it or interpret the information given to them by it.
Combat isn't the only form these abilities express themselves in either.
However, the life and death moments are commonly an area they get expressed. That gut feeling to step out of the way or not step at all is one such time.
I watched a steel I-beam break it's hook and fall from a crane. One guy stepped back while the other stayed on the deck with his head extended past a platform continued to weld. The beam turned on end as it broke loose and fell. The beam decapitated the guy leaning out while the force of the impact bent the platform in such a way that the guy who stepped back would have followed the beam to the ground (90' or so) if he hadn't have stepped back. We both were close enough to get sprayed with blood from the dead man.
My gut made me look up and take a step back. I looked up just in time to see the hook snap.

Nothing about that incident could be considered training from nature as welded steel platforms are recent events. Less than 100 years to be exact.

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

Nothing about that incident could be considered training from nature as welded steel platforms are recent events. Less than 100 years to be exact.

Welded steel platforms are recent.

But there's a very long time that people lived in areas with predators that attacked from trees or in mountain regions prone to rockfalls.

There might me more relevant natural training than you imagine.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

But there's a very long time that people lived in areas with predators that attacked from trees or in mountain regions prone to rockfalls.

I grew up in an area like that.

There might me more relevant natural training than you imagine.

There is no comparison with hostile mountainous areas and steel platforms.
I avoided a mountain lion attack via a similar gut feeling. It was not the same. For that incident I could buy into the natural training idea.
No chance I'm buying into it for the platform incident.

StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

My gut made me look up and take a step back. I looked up just in time to see the hook snap.

Nothing about that incident could be considered training from nature as welded steel platforms are recent events. Less than 100 years to be exact.

No, but you also have other senses - and in a work environment - your subconscious knows what's normal and what's not. Even more so when you're in a hazardous work environment. Your 'gut' was your brain hearing something that didn't sound right against all the regular background noise that it knew was normal, so you took a step back, THEN looked up.

I worked at the Subaru plant in Indiana for years. Lots of regular noises - overhead conveyors, air tools, forklifts, robotic welder, etc. Lots of stuff that you hear but tune out because it's NORMAL. It's funny how, in that cacophony of sounds, you can tell when something's off because you KNOW what's normal and what's not, and it's something that makes you look around. Now - you said you were 90' up, and obviously either on open steel or otherwise a serious fall risk. Your brain sensed danger, so the first reaction is to step back from the fall hazard. It heard or saw something that your conscious mind didn't have time to process and warned you of danger - which IS training by nature. But it's also that you PERSONALLY are highly aware of what's going on around you, because YOU are natural (unless there's something you haven't been telling us) and maintain that awareness at all times.

Replies:   Remus2  Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

No, but you also have other senses - and in a work environment - your subconscious knows what's normal and what's not. Even more so when you're in a hazardous work environment. Your 'gut' was your brain hearing something that didn't sound right against all the regular background noise that it knew was normal, so you took a step back, THEN looked up.

I could and did buy into that explanation. It's the only one that made sense to me at the time. Though I believe it was more a visual cue. The cacophony of sound would have mask a sound warning.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

Though I believe it was more a visual cue. The cacophony of sound would have mask a sound warning.

Without knowing specifically, that's possible. When I worked in the car plant, in the stamping shop, it was so loud with two presses and the blanking line running, you couldn't hear squat. The overhead crane operators were watching their loads, and not necessarily the ground - it was up to YOU to not walk under the hanging load, not for them to move it away from you. Our eyes were always flicking around, watching what was going on around us - it was way to easy to get hurt or killed there if you weren't always paying attention.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

When I worked in the car plant, in the stamping shop, it was so loud with two presses and the blanking line running, you couldn't hear squat.

From what I've read, in such an environment, the absence of an expected component of the background noise is more likely to be noticed than an unexpected noise.

I've personally had the experience at night of being woken up not by an unexpected noise but by the absence of a background noise I had gotten used to.

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

A lot of people who use a fan for white noise background experience that when the power drops.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

A lot of people who use a fan for white noise background experience that when the power drops.

Those of us on a CPAP also notice it, about the time we can't breathe. :)

Replies:   Dominions Son  Remus2
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

Those of us on a CPAP also notice it, about the time we can't breathe. :)

I also use a CPAP. In fact, I just got a new machine in the last couple of weeks.

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

Thankfully a CPAP isn't something I need just yet. Are there not power backups for them?

Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ
Updated:

@Remus2

Some models support an optional battery backup.

Severe(mine is mild) obstructive sleep apnea if left untreated can damage the heart to the point of failure.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sleep-apnea/symptoms-causes/syc-20377631

If you think you might, call a local sleep clinic and get tested.

There's a new treatment option for sleep apnea. It uses a pace maker like implant to stimulate the muscle on the underside of the mouth that causes the problem to contract in time with your breathing.

https://www.inspiresleep.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzveHzLnn-AIVLxvUAR2v4gB0EAAYASAAEgJeRfD_BwE

My sleep specialist approves of this. Unfortunately I have had repeated skin infections, so I am disqualified from this option.

StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

Are there not power backups for them?

Like DS said, some have optional batteries. I actually run mine through a UPS that I've disabled the beeper on, so if the power fails, I get about an hour more out of it.

I have severe sleep apnea - when I went in for my first test, they told me what would happen and how they'd eventually come in to put it on me if I needed it. I was asleep for almost 45 minutes before they woke me up to have me put on the mask, it was that scary.

Keep in mind that I was born with a bicuspid aortic valve, too, which is why I spent the fall of 2017 wondering if I was going to see the spring of 2018, before they put a TAVR in.

Many people have trouble adjusting to a mask. Since I had been NBC when I was in the military, and then took up SCUBA as well, I don't get claustrophobic like that. It definitely makes for better sleep, and will also help you live longer.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

Many people have trouble adjusting to a mask.

A lot will depend on what kind of mask. I was started with a full nose mask on my first machine, then later transitioned to a nasal pillow mask, which was nice, because I have light sensitivity issues and on eye lid that doesn't quite close all the way when relaxed. I can get it all the way closed if I consciously squeeze my eye's closed.

I've tried a full face mask, once, because I also have chronic sinus issues and sometimes have to breath through my mouth.

That was a disaster. The harness didn't have a chin strap and the mask would keep creeping up on my face until it lost seal at the bridge of the nose and started blowing air in my eyes.

The new mask is a pad that fits under the nose (but doesn't cover the bridge of the nose) with a couple of holes that line up with the nostrils. Very comfortable.

https://www.apriadirect.com/airfit-n30-nasal-cpap-mask-with-headgear-by-resmed?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Search%20%7C%20OLD%20%7C%20CPAP%20Masks%20%7C%20PRODUCTS&k_clickid=_k_EAIaIQobChMIyr_mp-Xn-AIVOG5vBB00qgFdEAAYASAAEgIovfD_BwE_k_&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyr_mp-Xn-AIVOG5vBB00qgFdEAAYASAAEgIovfD_BwE

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@Dominions Son

a nasal pillow mask

That's what I use. They've always been a little vague about telling me what the numbers actually mean, and I've never hooked up a flowmeter to see. But I presume when they tell me I need a 12, that they're talking about 12 liters per minute. I've tried one similar to what you have, that are nasal canula, and they couldn't get enough air through the small openings. They sounded like an small leak in a high pressure air hose.

Regarding the chronic sinus issues - have you had x-rays done of the cavity? I get bone spurs all over the place - I've had to have my feet operated on five times, I have them coming off my spinal column and impinging my nerves at times, and I even had one in my sinus cavity. The ENT had to do what was effectively a medically required rhinoplasty - go in and grind out the bone spur to open the sinus. The damn bone spur had the air flow nearly blocked on that side.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

I've tried one similar to what you have, that are nasal canula, and they couldn't get enough air through the small openings. They sounded like an small leak in a high pressure air hose.

The openings in the one I have are not that small, maybe, 25% smaller, by area, than the opening in a nasal pillow.

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

Now - you said you were 90' up, and obviously either on open steel or otherwise a serious fall risk.

Specifically it was an open stairwell on the side of a concrete lined LNG tank.
This is part of what I meant by this:

but few are trained to use it or interpret the information given to them by it.

My old man taught me that people have a tendency to over analyze and talk themselves into a coffin.
I do think about such incidents, but I do not let them rattle my brain.
Sometimes it simply is what it is. Taking the time to 'think about it' at the moment of the gut feeling is a moment to long.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl ๐Ÿšซ

@Remus2

My old man taught me that people have a tendency to over analyze and talk themselves into a coffin.
I do think about such incidents, but I do not let them rattle my brain.
Sometimes it simply is what it is. Taking the time to 'think about it' at the moment of the gut feeling is a moment to long.

Exactly. You react, THEN you take the time to figure out WHY you reacted. Instead of going, 'what did I just see out of the corner of my eye?' you pull your head back, THEN go, 'what did I just see?"

Replies:   Remus2
Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@StarFleet Carl

You react, THEN you take the time to figure out WHY you reacted. Instead of going, 'what did I just see out of the corner of my eye?' you pull your head back, THEN go, 'what did I just see?"

Working a pipeline hot tap repair, I saw a spark out of the corner of my eye about the same time I heard gas. I yelled for the guy to get out of there, then jumped in a ditch. A second or so later, the line blew sending out a blow torch of flames into his face. He staggered back and fell into the ditch.
There should never be the sound of gas and the sight of sparks in that situation. Someone has screwed the royal pooch if it happens.
In this case, it was several someones.

I've seen movies where the guy in flames is screaming and making a bunch of noise, I learned that day that they do make noise, but it's an unholy wheeze as their scorched lungs try to expel the burning air. It doesn't last long either.

If there had been any hesitation at that moment, I'd been flown out as impromptu BBQ along with him.

PotomacBob ๐Ÿšซ

@irvmull

If you want an example of how oblivious to reality most people are, ask a motorcycle rider. People pull out in front of them all the time

It's not limited to motorcycles. I believe drivers from a nearby state must be trained to run stop signs and red lights.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Remus2
Dominions Son ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

I believe drivers from a nearby state must be trained to run stop signs and red lights.

For me, drivers from a nearby state must be trained to drive 30MPH over the limit until they get to a hill, then slow down to 10 under.

Remus2 ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

Oblivious drivers are everywhere in every country.
Some places tend to be worse than others.

LupusDei ๐Ÿšซ

@PotomacBob

I'm a beekeeper, hobbyist rather, but still. My small apiary is static, some hive stations are at those exact locations for over thirty or forty years, almost all the time I been in charge there. The inhabitants change once now and then, as some attrition in winter is rather normal. That's the long way to get to the point: right now I have three hives where I know for a fact that the queens are sisters of the same year and month, born under my care, and there's rather good chance the drones that get to them were the same as well.

So, supposedly the hives should be rather similar by character and behavior, right? Nope. Instead, each have adopted the dominant character of the station, known to me for decades. Sure, no two stations are identical in terms of insolation and wind patterns and thus the temperature regime that has most influence on hive's behavior, and those three aren't either, but they share the same alcove with another three, less than twenty five yards between all the six. I get that the east-most (#1) gets to be different, no surprise over the west-most (#6) either, and (#5), second from the western end share character with the last with only subtle differences. But what's setting the three in the middle apart? One hive (#3) is now of different construction, but actually, that didn't change the character of the station either, and it's of no concern in our case of the sisters living in #1, #2 and #4. Okay, #4 is slightly in front, south from the general line (going roughly parallel to the spruce hedgerow behind, about 15 degrees north from west) staggering it a little (bees navigate mostly by geometry so differing the distance from the back wall hopefully helps them to tell the houses apart). Yes, the shadows of the chestnut and two apple trees in front of the alcove hit them in different times, but those are fleeting. But also, the #2 is right on what I think is a water flow, and the #4 is farthest from the center of it. Do that contribute to #2 having slightly more humid microclimate? Maybe. Humidity may have major impact, and I haven't measured and recorded it, although on eye there shouldn't be too huge a difference.

But the story here is: places have characters. Being pattern finding machines we try to make sense of those differences, sometimes perhaps too hard.

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