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Do-Over?

richardshagrin

Happy Pearl Harbor Day, the 76th anniversary. My mom and dad were there, got married in February 1942, the first time my dad could get a weekend off. He was a Lt. in the artillery and claimed his battery got off the first anti-aircraft shots that morning. Not entirely sure they were at Japanese planes. So I am a biological Pearl Harbor Survivor, although not born until 1944. My genes were there.

Oh, the do-over idea. Go back in time and somehow convince the military and naval forces that the Japanese were coming. Maybe they would call off the attack if they knew we were prepared. Change WW2. What happens if we stay out of it? Might be as simple as a letter to a newspaper, say the New York Times, setting forth the Japanese plans and how they succeeded the first time. Should mess with their plan if it were printed in a US newspaper.

robberhands

@richardshagrin

Wasn't there a movie with that theme? Well, not alarming the media but intervening on the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Something about a modern US aircraft-carrier set back in time.

awnlee jawking

@richardshagrin

Go back in time and somehow convince the military and naval forces that the Japanese were coming.


Certain intelligence sources were convinced that the Japanese were about to attack, but they couldn't convince the donkeys in charge of the lions. And then there's the conspiracy theories.

AJ

robberhands

Found it:

The Final Countdown is a 1980 alternate history science fiction film about a modern aircraft carrier that travels through time to the day before the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. Produced by Peter Vincent Douglas and directed by Don Taylor, the film stars Kirk Douglas, Martin Sheen, James Farentino, Katharine Ross and Charles Durning.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone

@robberhands

A TV episode with the same concept - although at a personal level.

Time Tunnel - Episode 4
Tony and Doug arrive inside the Japanese consulate in Honolulu the day before the attack on Pearl Harbor. The young Anthony Newman was living in Honolulu at the time and had spent that night at his friend Billy Neal's house – which would be destroyed in the raid – but Dr. Newman has no memory of what happened.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@AmigaClone

I think I saw that one as well but memory fades after some decades passed.

Replies:   Not_a_ID  AmigaClone
Not_a_ID

@robberhands

If you want one on the other side of things, although it involved the Battle of Midway, the Japanese have Zipang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipang_(manga)

Where a Modern(y2001-ish) Destroyer from the Japanese Navy on its way to naval exercises in Pearl Harbor finds itself in the middle of the Battle for Midway and their own struggles with what to do given their rather unique situation.

Can't readily side with the Allies, and they're not big fans of Imperial Japan either...

Replies:   robberhands
AmigaClone

@robberhands

Before doing some reading which refreshed my memory on some of the other episodes I could only remember one other one - involving a manned trip to Mars which landed on the Moon to pick up some fuel.

robberhands

@Not_a_ID

If you want one on the other side of things, although it involved the Battle of Midway, the Japanese have Zipang.

I remember, I once even saw a movie were Germany won WWII. Well, I watched the movie at least part way; it wasn't a good movie.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan

@robberhands

was it the one where the woman journalist tries to uncover the holocaust in the 70's? And the US President is visiting.

Also Zipang is great, I only started the manga, but have completely watched the (unfinished) anime.

robberhands

@sunkuwan

was it the one where the woman journalist tries to uncover the holocaust in the 70's? And the US President is visiting.

Might be, but I only watched a part of it and can't remember any details. Like I said, I didn't like the movie.

helmut_meukel
Updated:

@sunkuwan


was it the one where the woman journalist tries to uncover the holocaust in the 70's? And the US President is visiting.


Ahh, that one is Richard Harris' novel "Fatherland". The year is 1964, preparations for Hitler's 75th birthday are under way and US President Joseph Kennedy is expected for state visit.

HM.

Capt. Zapp

@sunkuwan

Also Zipang is great, I only started the manga, but have completely watched the (unfinished) anime.


You mean there are more than the 26 episodes? I haven't read the manga but I did acquired the anime after reading the earlier post.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan

@Capt. Zapp

No, I mean that the Anime just ends in the active storyline.

helmut_meukel
Updated:

@richardshagrin

Might be as simple as a letter to a newspaper, say the New York Times, setting forth the Japanese plans and how they succeeded the first time. Should mess with their plan if it were printed in a US newspaper.


And you really think the newspaper will publish it without any verification or proof, just on your say-so?

Wakey, wakey!

You probably could convince someone if you can foretell something other prior to the attack, something totally unexpected like a sudden death of a prominent person or an unforeseeable outcome of a sports event.

To really change history an alert less than 24 hours before the attack won't be enough, the warships in harbor need enough time to recall their crews and get under way far enough out on sea to avoid being sitting ducks.

HM.

edited to add:
The alert must reach the local command on Hawaii at least 24 hours prior to the attack. For a reliable radio connection between local command and higher command structures in mainland USA Hawaii was way out there!

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Not_a_ID
Ernest Bywater

@helmut_meukel

To really change history an alert less than 24 hours before the attack won't be enough, the warships in harbor need enough time to recall their crews and get under way far enough out on sea to avoid being sitting ducks.


There's evidence to show the Australian and British intelligence services informed the US high command of the attack over a week before it happened, and they were ignored as being crazy. So what chance has anyone else to tell them anything?

Replies:   helmut_meukel  REP
helmut_meukel

@Ernest Bywater

So what chance has anyone else to tell them anything?


The chance of a snowflake in Hell, I guess.
Probability is quite high a time-traveller who attempts to change this part of history will earn himself a straitjacket.

But it's his idea of a story. I just tried to add some reason.

HM.

Replies:   REP
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@helmut_meukel


The alert must reach the local command on Hawaii at least 24 hours prior to the attack. For a reliable radio connection between local command and higher command structures in mainland USA Hawaii was way out there!


I am going to somewhat disagree. Although I will likewise acknowledge that the attack happening on a Sunday morning doesn't help.

That newfangled RADAR site detected the attackers well beforehand, but operators "made an assumption" about what they saw. Someone able to position themselves such that those operators actually attempted to communicate with that "incoming (friendly) wing of bombers" from the north should be able to get the military forces going into an alert status well before the Japanese arrived.

On a smaller scale, getting some of the "Battleship Row" leadership types to decide that 0730(or a little earlier, not later) on a Sunday (December 7th) would be a good time for a "readiness exercise" of some type could also work.

The problem to be had there is Japan knew what they were doing, and they knew enough about general ship's routines in the U.S. Navy to know that 8AM was something of a sweet spot to hit during.

REP

@Ernest Bywater

Back then the US suffered from 'Isolationism', which means you stick your head in the sand and ignore what is going on around you.

Today, the US suffers from the opposite in that we stick our heads in other peoples business when the circumstances seem to have little if anything to do with the US, and is not welcome.

REP
Updated:

@helmut_meukel


But it's his idea of a story. I just tried to add some reason.


If we followed 'reason' and 'reality' most of the stories on this site would never get written. :)

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