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How do you prepare stories for posting?

The Slim Rhino

One thing that's always been a bit of a pain in the backside is how to prepare stories for posting.

I normally write them in LibreOffice, inserting SOL markup tags according to the documentation. That gives me two problems - if you copy the resulting texts into a text editor (VIM in my case) all the paragraphs are bunched together

Okay, so I added :

nmap ll :g./nn@!/norm o

to my .vimrc and typing ,ll in normal mode adds the lines nicely. That's usually enough to save it and post. But the problem is, since my main fare is Star Trek fan fiction, I also post on ff.net and AOE3, which expect rtf and html respectively. I could post in html here, buit the restrictions on SOL and AOE3 are different, for instance SOL doesn't allow paragraphs to be justify'ed.

In the end I ended up writing my own tools to convert SOL-code to rtf and HTML, and being the geek I so truly am, I even wrote a VIM syntax highlighting mode for VIM that properly marks up SOL tags ;)

How do others go through the process from the draft to putting it into the submission wizard?

Dominions Son

@The Slim Rhino

How do others go through the process from the draft to putting it into the submission wizard?


I write in Open Office. I don't use that much of the formatting codes and I don't post anywhere else. So the little bit of formatting I do, I do manually.

I keep the full story in one master document. When preparing to post a chapter, I copy that chapter to a separate document. When it's ready to post, I save it as an html file then post that file.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Switch Blayde

@The Slim Rhino

How do others go through the process from the draft to putting it into the submission wizard?


I write in Word. I do my final edits with the story displayed in my browser so I have an HTML template that has the basic HTML code above and below my story.

The only formatting I do is italics so I type the HTML tags before and after the italicized word(s). When I'm ready to post, I delete all the HTML except the italic tags.

Each chapter is a separate file.

The process is different when I plan to end up with an ebook, but that's not SOL.

Ernest Bywater

When I've got a story finished I've got 5 formats of it. The SoL format is the last one, and it takes the most work.

a. I've 6 x 9 inch book template I write the story in, using Libre Office. Until the LO split off I'd used Open Office. I save the story in the default .odt format. This is the master file.

b. When I finish the story I save a copy as .pdf (using the single click PDF conversion process within LO) for use as the print book file.

c. I then use Save As to make a copy of the .odt and amend it by altering the margins, remove the headers and the footers, and save. I then use Save As to save as .html for a web page copy.

d. Open the .dot file created in (c) and delete the Contents index and save it. Then open this file in Calibre and create an e-pub version.

e. Open the .html version in a coding program like Notepad++ or BlueFish and amend the html code by using the Find and Replace option to delete all the excess format code and save it again as a clean html file and another .html copy with a slightly different name.

f. Open the duplicate .html file with the code editor and use the Find and Replace to replace the html code with the Tagged Text code used by SoL - most cases this is just a change of the type of bracket, but a few need a bit more than that. Using the F&R makes this easy.

In the end I have a clean .html copy, a clean Tagged Text copy, a clean .pdf, a clean .epub, and the .odt master file.

However, of late I've been rethinking about keeping a clean .html copy and just providing the epub for people to download off my website.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Dominions Son


I keep the full story in one master document. When preparing to post a chapter, I copy that chapter to a separate document. When it's ready to post, I save it as an html file then post that file.


Master document is key; posting individual files ditto. I compose in Word then run a couple of global replaces for SOL formatting (blank line between paragraphs, remove Word's autoformatting for quotes, etc.)

Final edit of the single file in Mac's TextEdit app, then copy and paste into SOL's "Let me paste my text" box. My formatting for SOL is pretty basic, so I use SOL's tags for that.

All corrections and edits as I review and revise to the source document first. You've thus always got an authoritative source.

bb

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Bondi Beach

then copy and paste into SOL's "Let me paste my text" box.


I do not understand why anyone would do that when you can just attach the file.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

File formats accepted for submission of works through the site are: Plain Text (.txt, .asc) and HTML files. (All open formats, no proprietary formats are accepted -- No Word, Wordperfect, MS Works, AppleWorks, or Lotus Word) If you need to submit styled text like italics and bold, convert your document to HTML. All the popular word processors support one of these two.


If you paste into the Text Box you can copy and paste direct from one of the forbidden file formats.

Crumbly Writer

@The Slim Rhino

How do others go through the process from the draft to putting it into the submission wizard?

Ha-ha! In my case, I maintain multiple copies, not only of each book I write, but also of each chapter.

I produce separate copies of each book I write for:
1) Smashwords.com
2) Amazon.com
3) Createspace
4) a separate epub file and
5) a separate 'master document' I can use to search for text when searching for errors.

but I also produce individual chapter files for:
1) SOL
2) html to post on my webpage
3) FS (in case there's language to be removed, or a change in material included)
4) BtFH (which, because she only accepts .doc format files, means another copy of each of my original text files!)

That's a hell of a lot of duplication, so to cut down on the maintenance, I reuse my formatting. For each new document, I recycle my own formatted books, updating the formatting as I cut and paste the new chapters into each. In the end, it's less work maintaining each file than it is formatting each one from scratch.

By the way, before we begin another formatting flame war, the only reason I use M$ WORD is because I used it for decades in the business world, and I still feel more comfortable with it, even though I've stuck with their 2010 version. There's NO problem with your using LO!

By the way, I also convert each chapter to html, clean out all the crap that WORD dumps into html (though I've learned how to restrict the bloat over time), and then convert the html into markup for SOL and FS. The benefits here, are that it allows me to include graphics, links, and most importantly, standardized style definitions which SOL doesn't support.

But then, I'm a bit of a control freak regarding formatting! ;)

Otherwise, Ernest and I use very similar procedures. Though, I wouldn't recommend that much effort for anyone just starting out or not self-publishing their own documents!

Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

If you paste into the Text Box you can copy and paste direct from one of the forbidden file formats.


Save as .html or .txt and you don't need the copy and paste.

Stay away from any fancy formatting and you won't need to manually edit the .html or .txt.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

Stay away from any fancy formatting and you won't need to manually edit the .html or .txt.


You can do it that way if you want, but my main aim is a well Presented print book and e-book with version for SoL coming in behind that. So my drafts and master have a lot of formatting in them. SInce SoL allows for that formatting using the Tagged Text codes I do it that way. And, yes it's a more than .txt allows, and basic .html code won't cut it in the print and epub versions.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

You can do it that way if you want, but my main aim is a well Presented print book and e-book with version for SoL coming in behind that. So my drafts and master have a lot of formatting in them. SInce SoL allows for that formatting using the Tagged Text codes I do it that way. And, yes it's a more than .txt allows, and basic .html code won't cut it in the print and epub versions.

In my case, I submit html (to SOL) because I'm already using html to post to my website and ASSTR, thus it's natural to use that format over having to format each chapter from scratch. There's actually little custom formatting for each destination (I remove paragraph types, although SOL strips those out anyway), and I add the { p } flag instead of expecting the Admins to convert my < h1 > tags. Beyond that, there really isn't much cleanup. However, when I post to my website and ASSTR, I add a LOT of extra bells and whistles, simply because they allow for features and customization. In the end, it benefits the reader, and also helps me promote my work.

Bondi Beach

@Ernest Bywater

If you paste into the Text Box you can copy and paste direct from one of the forbidden file formats.


With, however, sometimes rather erratic results. Even text that displays correctly in the Format Previewer does not necessarily display well when posted. I did three revisions to Chapter 1 of before it came out right, and thanks to the moderators for bearing with me.

So now I strip out everything down to the bones, and then add whatever formatting I need.

As for the separate files: They get lost sometimes. If your text is too long for the Paste box then sure, go with the attached file. Otherwise, why complicate things?

bb

Joe_Bondi_Beach

@Ernest Bywater

And, yes it's a more than .txt allows, and basic .html code won't cut it in the print and epub versions.


Exactly, although I suspect I do less formatting than you do.

bb

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Joe_Bondi_Beach


Exactly, although I suspect I do less formatting than you do.


I think I do more formatting than most people do, due to the issues I've seen with the various e-book readers.

I use italics, bold, colour, and blockquote in the text of the body, plus italics, bold, font size, and colour in the headings.

I also use four headings, all are centered on the page:

Title page is 32 point font text in green text and small capitals.

Chapter in red and 18 point font.

Sub-chapter in blue italics and in 14 point font.

Section id in bold and in the 10 point font of the text.

The font type and size is stripped out for the SoL version to allow the user's display setting full control. Also the title page and copyright page is removed.

Thus, for SoL, the Tagged Text commands I use are: center, red, blue, italics, bold, block, and the BR line return command is used in some things like lists and poetry to have no space between the lines.

edit to add: the finished SoL product is very close to the original.

typo edit.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

You can do it that way if you want, but my main aim is a well Presented print book and e-book with version for SoL coming in behind that


My suggestion wouldn't work for someone looking to publish e-books or dead tree. However for an author only posting here on SOL, it's the simplest way to handle it.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Dominions Son

My suggestion wouldn't work for someone looking to publish e-books or dead tree. However for an author only posting here on SOL, it's the simplest way to handle it.


Correct, and that's the case with some, and I hope they take it up.

The Slim Rhino

The SOL markup code is pretty much the least common denominator of all story sites I know. They all support what can be done with SOL-code, but most of them support more than that.

What I currently have is a tool that takes *.sol files and converts them to either rtf, html or LaTeX files (for ebooks). Currently I'm trying to expand on that by writing a plugin for Libreoffice that takes a normally formatted ODF to pump out those files. That will hopefully save me a lot of work in the future.

Ernest Bywater

@The Slim Rhino

Libreoffice that takes a normally formatted ODF to pump out those files. That will hopefully save me a lot of work in the future.


If you get that going, I'd love to be a tester of it for you.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

I think I do more formatting than most people do, due to the issues I've seen with the various e-book readers.

Ernest and I are probably the two most format-intensive authors here. But I tend to go for fancy graphics, exotic fonts and cute buttons ("Prev" and "Next" links), while Ernest prefers fitting the text onto the page so they break correctly.

However, the only text formatting I use are italics, occasional bolding (mostly restricted to styles like "Big Text" or "Bolded Centered") and indents. After struggling with Amazon tossing all blockquote commands, I eventually gave up on the html/epub command, instead relying on Style definitions to indent text by 3em; (3 character widths using whichever font the reader prefers). For SOL, I change the indent back into blockquotes since there isn't any other options.

So far, I haven't heard any feedback, either positive or negative, concerning my use of various fonts and graphics (ex: for section breaks), so it's probably a wasted effort, but they help create a uniform 'feel' for the story, and add value beyond the Free stories so abundant in most ebook sites.

Crumbly Writer

@The Slim Rhino

What I currently have is a tool that takes *.sol files and converts them to either rtf, html or LaTeX files (for ebooks). Currently I'm trying to expand on that by writing a plugin for Libreoffice that takes a normally formatted ODF to pump out those files. That will hopefully save me a lot of work in the future.

Ha-ha. LaTeX is only a 20 - 30 year old print technology, so it's hardly the 'latest' in technology. But epub uses the majority of html code directly (with only a few command substistutions (like replacing styles with CSS definitions, and < br > commands with < br / >)). It's an easy transition to go from html to epub.

My issue with epub, is it takes a massive effort to search and replace, code, format and convert in order to make changes to an already published story (such as when someone catches a typo). Thus I end up creating the epub files, but never using them!

Replies:   The Slim Rhino
graybyrd

This method is NOT for those who use intensive formatting. So shut up about it, already!

Two of us that I know use this method:

1. Type with a text editor such as Notepad (Win), Geany (Linux), or TextWrangler (Mac);

Add a blank line between each paragraph.

Type # for an H1 head: # My Headline
on its own line, no indent.

Type ## for H2; ### for H3, etc.
I use ### My Subhead or **My Subhead**

Type _word_ for italic; **word** for bold. Type > followed by a space for a blockquote to begin an indented line or paragraph.

That's all. It's just that simple. Touch-typing is not slowed down at all with "#" or "*" or "_" or ">" .

2. Save the text file with a filename.md.txt suffix.

3. Post to SOL as filename.md.txt

4. For your archive, save the text file; correct any discovered errors/revisions/typos, and repost.

Save the original draft as filename.md.txt; save the edited file as filename-edt.md.txt; save the revised edited file as filename-rev.md.txt

Only my FINAL version is archived. A separate issue is to use the corrected .md.txt version for other formats such as RTF, PDF or HTML/ePUB.

I use a filter to convert .md.txt to the desired format: for example, "output to RTF file" or "output to HTML" etc. I save the new format file, and retain the .md.txt file for the archive.

One file, many outputs. Too simple. Too efficient.

I do NOT have patience to listen to FORMAT PURISTS who rewrite their paragraphs to fit a particular formatted, pretty-printed paragraph space. This is NOT for you, so STIFLE yourself already.

Thanks

Dominions Son

@graybyrd

2. Save the text file with a filename.md.txt suffix.


Either you are missing a step to search and replace your formatting markers with proper supported markups or you are forcing the site moderators to do it for you. Shame on you if it's the latter.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd
Updated:

@Dominions Son

Shame on you for not knowing that Lazeez has long ago made provision for accepting text files as I've explained here, with an .md.txt suffix.

This is not a 'special' case; in the Linux world these files have been widely adopted for universal document production.

Next smart remark?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@graybyrd

Next smart remark?


"Would you believe, I was that close, 99?"

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@graybyrd


Thanks


GB,

We have different aims, and thus, we have different processes to suit our personal aims. The strength of a forum like this is we can have a discussion where we both state our processes and other can see them and choose to do what I do, or what you do, or pick something in between. I'm glad that's the way it works.

Thanks for sharing the process.

typo edit

Replies:   graybyrd  Crumbly Writer
graybyrd

@Ernest Bywater

EB,

Thank you, and you're welcome. I think the Brits call this "horses for courses" or some such.

I've spend past years in commercial print production, the last several in my own shop. I began with Linotypes, hand-set type, and rigid rules of typography and page makeup. We converted to offset printing and page pasteups, with photo-typesetting. The same rigid typography rules applied. Access to multiple fonts was a luxury; they were damned (!) expensive.

We were on the ground floor of so-called "Desktop Publishing." Our weekly newspaper began using a series of Apple Macintosh computers and early-day DTP software including PageMaker, Ready-Set-Go, and Quark Express. It was a profound revolution, which I'm quite confident to say that very few people (including most on this forum) can fully appreciate. It was equal to Gutenberg's idea of movable, reusable type.

That said, damned few computer programmers understood the rigid typographical standards we'd always adhered to. Or the niceties of type layout and page makeup. They mostly ignored the standards and wrote wrong crap into their programs. It was chaos! And ugly!

Only the high-end programs today understand the fine points of kerning, leading, em's, en's, and thin spaces, and WHY they were used, and how. That's just for starters.

But, we're in the digital age, and display type and size rules the output. My 21-inch monitor is not your 7-inch tablet or his 4-inch smartphone or her 1-inch watch. So go figure ... how the hell do we produce "pretty-print" output for all that?

We don't, really. Unless we know the exact display we're formatting for. So SWAG* does enter the equation.

And, for that reason and several others, beside, I do like the simplicity of a lightly-coded text file and its universal applicability. It's nice, easy, and the epitome of KISS.

G'day, Mate. Keep yer powder dry 'n' yer bush well watered!

*SWAG=>super wild-assed guess

Replies:   richardshagrin
Capt Zapp

@Ernest Bywater

"Would you believe, I was that close, 99?"


"Missed it by that much."

Dominions Son

@Capt Zapp

"Missed it by that much."


"Would you believe this much?"

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

The strength of a forum like this is we can have a discussion where we both state out processes and other can see them and choose to do what I do, or what you do, or pick something in between.

What's more, as the newer authors read these comments, they'll learn who specializes in which specialties (formatting, publishing, posting to alternate sites, etc.). Thus, if they decide to branch out and try something new, they'll know who to ask about it. That's worth a lot in itself, and only costs you a few endless posts containing endless details no one cares about. 'D

@graybyrd

We were on the ground floor of so-called "Desktop Publishing." Our weekly newspaper began using a series of Apple Macintosh computers and early-day DTP software including PageMaker, Ready-Set-Go, and Quark Express. It was a profound revolution, which I'm quite confident to say that very few people (including most on this forum) can fully appreciate. It was equal to Gutenberg's idea of movable, reusable type.

I worked for years using Quark and PageMaker. Quark was wonderful because it allowed kerning of individual characters. Now, when I do graphic chapter heads, I'll often hand kern fonts which don't feature it in Photoshop (talk about obsessive control!).

So go figure ... how the hell do we produce "pretty-print" output for all that?

Wrong! Using basic html, you use relative positioning in your Style Definitions. Thus it won't matter what size the font is, or even which font is being used. The positions are relative, instead of fixed by set distances. I indent my first line of each paragraph by 2.5 characters, and my indented text by three characters. What's more, with responsive web design, the same text displays on any size device. Hell, most devices automatically adjust graphics to fit the device display, and if they don't, I set the display percentage each chapter takes on the page, which forces it to adapt to each display.

Ernest and I regularly argue over his need to fit paragraph orphans (left over text spilling over onto a spare page), but he only does it for print documents where you have more control. However, for a long time, he insisted on duplicating that control by only publishing using pdf, which display an exact copy of the print document, but displays terribly on smartphones!

Ernest Bywater

@Capt Zapp


"Missed it by that much."


put it down to dementia after 50 years.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

few endless posts containing endless details no one cares about. 'D


CW,

I've got to thin books I published and put out as total freebies that explains all this. I even go to the trouble of selling them for zero dollars on Amazon, iTunes, B&N, Kobo, and Nook _ I've had several people email me and thank me for making available the information they need to understand what they want to do in self-publishing. This way I can avoid a lot of them emails, because I already have ti out there.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

However, for a long time, he insisted on duplicating that control by only publishing using pdf, which display an exact copy of the print document, but displays terribly on smartphones!


CW,

The only reason I put out PDF e-books for so long was I couldn't find a way to put out a nice looking e-pub that was worth the effort. When I did find one, I was fast to swap over to it. But I waited for a good process instead of jumping on the first rough nag that went by, like many did.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
The Slim Rhino

@Crumbly Writer

Ha-ha. LaTeX is only a 20 - 30 year old print technology, so it's hardly the 'latest' in technology. But epub uses the majority of html code directly (with only a few command substistutions (like replacing styles with CSS definitions, and < br > commands with < br / >)). It's an easy transition to go from html to epub.


It may be 30 years old technology, but no HTML can make a printed book (or an ebook for that matter) better than one that was written in LaTeX.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
graybyrd
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

@ Crumbly Writer

One of the unappreciated gems of the DTP world was Ready-Set-Go for Mac. It was developed by Manhattan Graphics, a NYC publishing firm. They insisted that it conform to industry typographical standards. Quark came later, and basically did the same. Sadly RSG was 'bought out' and neglected, and forgotten. (It was later acquired by a UK firm, Diwan Ltd, updated, and is a great program, available for Mac and Windows. I've used it for years for any page layout needs.)

CSS and style defs, right. I agree. That's my "Phase III" for doc production. First, the draft document. If it needs to be structured, I'll do that with document heading, meta information, section heads, subheads, etc. The markdown for this more complex draft will be more inclusive, such as graphics and tables and links and references.

Second, the output to HTML. Third, the application of CSS.

As for being suitable for any size device, well ... there's many bedevilments in the details, but in general ... yer right. That's the only sensible approach to take.

As for PDF... ? Adobe did good to make it a frozen-format page printout on a monitor screen. It's frozen. Shrink it, you can't read it. Expand it, the type becomes grotesque. It's a PRINT page on a screen. It's meant to print on paper. End of story.

Using it for eBook distribution is like using shit for face cream. Not suited to purpose.

Good discussion.

BTW, if it hadn't been for John Warnock and Adobe Postscript technology, including fonts, desktop publishing would never have gotten off the ground. It, and the LaserWriter, were a huge leap forward. 300 dpi resolution print on clay-coated paper was a huge blessing; we could make camera ready pasteups with it. Not as good as 1200 magazine quality, but for most jobs, and newspaper use, it was very good.

Thanks to Adobe!

>edited to say 'clay-coated' rather than glossy. There's a big difference.

>boring history, but then those who hope to do well with ePublishing would do well to know the history, the development path, and what works... and what doesn't... and to understand the difference.

Replies:   The Slim Rhino
The Slim Rhino
Updated:

@graybyrd


BTW, if it hadn't been for John Warnock and Adobe Postscript technology, including fonts, desktop publishing would never have gotten off the ground. It, and the LaserWriter, were a huge leap forward. 300 dpi resolution print on glossy paper was a huge blessing; we could make camera ready pasteups with it. Not as good as 1200 magazine quality, but for most jobs, and newspaper use, it was very good.

Thanks to Adobe!


That's only partially true. Postscript was around early, but TeX was what made it accessible, and TeX was completed in 1986. IF I've got to write something that needs to look really professional or has a lot of math formulae in it, I would never use anything else. After all, it was specifically designed as a typesetting system.

Replies:   graybyrd
richardshagrin

@graybyrd

It thought SWAG was Strictly a Wild Ass Guess. Maybe strictly comes with BDSM. Super comes with comic strips (superman, super boy, super girl, maybe others). Swag was what pirates gathered and kept in chests, to be buried. Some heroes swagger.

We can make up our own acronyms. Super Women And Girls?

Replies:   The Slim Rhino
The Slim Rhino

@richardshagrin

We can make up our own acronyms. Super Women And Girls?


On the topic of reader feedback : Shit We All Got. ;)

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@The Slim Rhino

Partly right, Slim Rhino. I was alive, kicking and working at the time. TeX was a child of academia, and a bloody nightmare to write. There wasn't any DTP software that made Tex approachable. You're getting into the world of Unix and lots of code to learn. TeX may have been there, but it did not trigger digital printing in the commercial print or corporate publishing industries.

TeX was not even on our horizon. It was the SYSTEM of the WYSIWYG screen display on the Mac, the RIP* of Postscript print encoding, and the high-resolution output of a very affordable LaserWriter, all working together that made an incredibly affordable and flexible page production system. We simply had no time to play with entering TeX codes with a CLI; we'd endured far too much of that with early-day phototypesetters like CompuGraphic or Varityper terminals. Every line, every single damned parameter had to be entered as codes. It made HTML look simplistic.

TeX and LaTeX today remain primarily an Academic system of choice, for good reason. There's a reason why decent built-for-purpose TeX editors, like LyX, had to be written. TeX is NOT a casual technology.

*RIP=>raster image processor

Replies:   The Slim Rhino
graybyrd

@The Slim Rhino

Yeh, well, as far as acronyms go, I've fallen in lust with PAW, from Kid Wigger's "Flight of the Code Monkey." I apply it to the nagging apprehension we all feel (we all DO feel it, right?) whenever we go a'browsing on the 'net. There be dragons lurking there, and all that looks good to eat is just bait on a hook.

PAW=>paranoid ass wipe (a lower brain stem function)

The Slim Rhino

@graybyrd

TeX and LaTeX today remain primarily an Academic system of choice, for good reason. There's a reason why decent built-for-purpose TeX editors, like LyX, had to be written. TeX is NOT a casual technology.


Well, some of my stories were written in vi, so you can probably imagine my geek-level ;) I like TeX because you can control literally everything. But of course for the less nerdy people a WYSIWYG system makes more sense :)

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@The Slim Rhino

LOL! vi! I'm reminded of my late uncle, 'Hard-Way' Jones. He consummated his wedding night standing up in a hammock!

You're a better man than me, Gunga Din. As for WYSIWYG, it was simply not possible to lay out a complex advertisement or flyer without a WYSIWYG screen. CLI coding resulted in too many errors, too many misalignments, and too much lost time and $$ for commercial work.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

@The Slim Rhino


That gives me two problems - if you copy the resulting texts into a text editor (VIM in my case) all the paragraphs are bunched together


If we see text with single return between paragraphs (for all paragraphs), we add the necessary ones. It's the ones with a combination of one return or two between paragraphs that trip us and result in one giant paragraph sometimes.

I'm open to suggestion of new useful features to support in html. Please don't ask for justified text. I have a thing against it and hate it with a passion as most HTML engine does it so poorly it looks terribly ugly, that's one of the reasons that I personally hate the Kindle and its format, you can't turn off forced justification.

Anyways! As authors, what would you like to be able to use? If it's doable and it makes sense, I'll implement it.

I honestly never looked at what type of formatting other sites support. So, I'm open to suggestions in that regard too.

I won't support posting in RTF, .doc or any closed format. As for (ODF) .odt, it's too complicated to properly support on my own.

Dominions Son

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

As for .odf, it's too complicated to properly support on my own.


ODF is just a compressed html file. However, since I don't know what compression they use, I am not going to argue that you support it. It's simple enough to save as plain .html

Dominions Son

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Please don't ask for justified text.


I assume you mean fully justified. The stories on SOL all appear to be left justified to me.

Ernest Bywater

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

So, I'm open to suggestions in that regard too.


In the Format Guidelines you list HTML codes you accept as:


italic
bold
bold-italic
emphasize
strong
superscript
blockquote
horizontal rules
H3, H4 and H5 header tags


Will you consider allowing the use of HTML code for H1 and H2 header tags, the 'center' paragraph alignment tag, 'BR' command, and font colour tags to match the colours you provide for in the Tagged Text options (red, blue, green).

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

The only reason I put out PDF e-books for so long was I couldn't find a way to put out a nice looking e-pub that was worth the effort. When I did find one, I was fast to swap over to it. But I waited for a good process instead of jumping on the first rough nag that went by, like many did.

Understood, that's why I said: "However, for a long time, he insisted on ...". I was providing a background on your fascination with formatting. Mine goes a bit farther back, starting with early desktop publishing in the business world made worse with infinite possibilities made possible with endless technology. 'D I like to see what I can do, and I figure it adds to the complete reader environment.

@graybyrd

CSS and style defs, right. I agree. That's my "Phase III" for doc production. First, the draft document. If it needs to be structured, I'll do that with document heading, meta information, section heads, subheads, etc. The markdown for this more complex draft will be more inclusive, such as graphics and tables and links and references.

That's why I do my formatting upfront. I use each of my existing books to create my next, adding to it as I continue. I use a standard set of Styles (Normal, FirstParagraph, Indent, Centered, Centerbold, etc.) which match my pre-existing CSS definitions (html) which I cut and paste into each ePub (since they don't allow external look-ups).

Thus I do very little actual formatting, instead selecting from my predefined list which ensures I have a consistent look and feel to my stories. Where I go overboard, is the application of graphics. I started out by applying custom fonts on my covers, and then including them as chapter headers. Since licensing 'embedded fonts' is prohibitively expensive and problematic, I instead use 'pictures' of each chapter title in a particular font. That's more effort than most authors are willing to do, but it helps justify my higher prices, and differentiates my books from the hundreds of thousands of FREE books available everywhere you look.

>boring history, but then those who hope to do well with ePublishing would do well to know the history, the development path, and what works... and what doesn't... and to understand the difference.

The problem is, for most readers/authors, it's uninteresting detail. If and when someone decides to expand their expertise, they simply won't care. Once they do, it's better to have someone to reach out to rather than continually beating them over the head with it (part of my 'push/pull' philosophy, though I counter this by repeatedly detailing what I do.

PAW=>paranoid ass wipe (a lower brain stem function)

More common definition: PAW = Post-Apocalyptic World. It's a common SEO term (Search Algorithm Optimization) for books.

I like TeX because you can control literally everything. But of course for the less nerdy people a WYSIWYG system makes more sense :)

No. The problem is, TeX, and especially LaTeX, were too cumbursome to be widely used, and thus it was poorly supported, and never took off. There's a massive difference between a clever idea which never takes off, and someone who figures out how to do it right, so everyone clambers aboard, uses it, and add to and builds on the concepts. Whatever you think of Apple product, there's a reason why Steve Job is seen as a pioneer and visionary. No one else could devise a system as uniform, reliable and usable.

The Slim Rhino
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


I'm open to suggestion of new useful features to support in html. Please don't ask for justified text. I have a thing against it and hate it with a passion as most HTML engine does it so poorly it looks terribly ugly, that's one of the reasons that I personally hate the Kindle and its format, you can't turn off forced justification.


In General I would say, streamline the SOL code a bit, with underlines,i-tags and {_ _} tags we have three diferrent ways of coding italic text, that's overkill really, pretty much proven by the fact that the format previewer cant render _underscore'd inline italic text_ properly. I'm currently sitting in the train, which is not the best environment to work, but I'll post a proposal for a overhauled (but backwards compatible) sol code tomorrow. ODF conversion should be no problem, Openoffice does that automagically for you and I'm working on the converter plugin right now, once that is done, I'm willing to make it available for all members of SOL.

Crumbly Writer

Quick question, Lazeez. Currently, I'm working off a hybrid of text markup and html, where I remove my "paragraph class" statements, and post the results. I'm assuming you strip out the extra details within the < p > command, so stripping out the other info is likely unnecessary. In order to look pretty, I also insert < br > commands since I removed initial < h1 > commands (to get it to look like my original html did.

Does this impact what you process (i.e. does it make it easier, or harder for you)? Specifically, should I leave in the < p class="Inset" > commands, and do the extra < br > commands affect the SOL results (or even worse, for you to manually remove them again)?

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Dominions Son

ODF is just a compressed html file. However, since I don't know what compression they use, I am not going to argue that you support it. It's simple enough to save as plain .html


ODF files, with .odt extension, is the document format used by OpenOffice and LibreOffice. It's a complicated XML based format. Definitely not just HTML. It's documented and everything, and zipped, but a pain in the ass to support for one person with many other things needing attention.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Dominions Son

I assume you mean fully justified. The stories on SOL all appear to be left justified to me.


Pedantic are we?

Just for clarification, in CSS, it's { text-align: justify; } so I'm used to using justified instead of 'full justification'.

Ernest Bywater

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

It's a complicated XML based format. Definitely not just HTML. It's documented and everything, and zipped, but a pain in the ass to support for one person with many other things needing attention.


Very true, Mate. But if he comes up with a suitable converter program it may be worthwhile getting his permission to make it available for download from the site for people to use on their own computers to prepare a SoL ready file for you.

Mind you, if the half dozen or so HTML tags I asked about before were accepted by SoL, I think it would solve the issue for many people. It definitely would for me - because those are the tags I spend most of the time converting to the Tagged Text code for a submission.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Ernest Bywater

Will you consider allowing the use of HTML code for H1 and H2 header tags, the 'center' paragraph alignment tag, 'BR' command, and font colour tags to match the colours you provide for in the Tagged Text options (red, blue, green).


Structurally sound html files should have only one h1 tag and it's reserved for the title. The h2 tag is reserved for the author name and chapter title.

the < centre > is invalid in html 4.01 and html 5. But if you use it, it gets converted to {c} and is basically supported. The < br > is supported and gets converted to {br}, but then it's treated as the site's tags, which means more than one in a row and you get a new paragraph so you can have only one at a time. We use it extensively to format poems for example.

The < font color="red" > is invalid html 4.01 and html 5, so can't support it without making the site tag soup. The {red}, {blue} {green} tags are the correct formatting for colorisation. I could support it by converting it to the site's tags. Haven't done it already because nobody asked for it specifically.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


Structurally sound html files should have only one h1 tag and it's reserved for the title. The h2 tag is reserved for the author name and chapter title.


I already use the Tagged Text codes you mention in the other two paragraphs, so I won't discuss them. It's good to know why you don't allow the HTML code for the items I use and you don't allow. I already spend time to convert to the Tagged Text file for you, so I'll continue to do so. But I will experiment with Calibre to see if I can get it to work the way I want using deeper header codes to reduce the code conversion load.

I prefer to, and currently do, use basic HTML and avoid using a CSS, but if there is a way to use one to get what I want at SoL as well as in HTML, then I'll use it - anything to reduce the workload on everyone involved.

The following is for information purposes so you know what I do and why.

Now, as to the headers. I write in Libre Office and it has Heading which I use for the story title, and use H1 for a chapter heading and H2 for a sub-chapter heading . I do this for two reasons, the main one being when Calibre creates the Contents list for the e-pub it uses the H1 and H2 headings to do so, and ignores the Heading used for the title. This is good because I know if I have it in the file for a short story you strip it out, anyway, thus I tend to strip it out of the file while converting it.

Where I use the colour in the files for SoL is in H1 (red text), H2 (blue text), and BLOCKQUOTE (blue text) - Although I'm now using just coloured text for some of the situations I've used the BLOCKQUOTE in the past.

graybyrd
Updated:

@Dominions Son


I assume you mean fully justified. The stories on SOL all appear to be left justified to me.


Actually, the correct terms as used since the days of hand-set type and Linotype lead typesetting are:

Flush (or, 'quad') left, flush (quad) right, quadded (center), and justified.

A 'quad' was a blank brass mat used as a spacing mat in a line of Linotype brass letter matrices.

There's no such term as 'justified' left or right. Justified meant just that: 'justified' with sufficient spaceband expansion to force the typecasting matrices (mats) apart to fill the line measure.

A blank brass quad was essential for spacing out a flush left or right line of type, as it was not possible to use two or more spacebands alongside each other. So quad (an 'em' measure) mats were used, with spacebands between. A 'spaceband' was a hanging polished steel two-piece tapered wedge device that expanded to tightly squeeze the letter-face mats together when the Linotype rammed them firmly up between the casting jaws, just before spinning them over to the lead-injection mold.

Sorry, more of those 'boring' details, but if you're going to throw terms about, it's best to know where they came from and what they mean.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

@The Slim Rhino

In General I would say, streamline the SOL code a bit, with underlines,i-tags and {_ _} tags we have three diferrent ways of coding italic text, that's overkill really,


< i > tags and { i } tags are the same thing. I support the < i > tag to make it easier on authors. Underline and Asterisk and leftovers from ASSM and usenet. Plenty of files use them. {_ _} and {* *} are different as they are not inline, they're multi-paragraph level tags.

pretty much proven by the fact that the format previewer cant render _underscore'd inline italic text_ properly.


Considering that the previewer was originally designed for the site's tags previewing only, I left the underscore and asterisk formatting out. I just added it so now it works.

ODF conversion should be no problem, Openoffice does that automagically for you and I'm working on the converter plugin right now, once that is done, I'm willing to make it available for all members of SOL.


Should be no problem for authors. But OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice doesn't fit in our workflow. So we can't support it.

Replies:   The Slim Rhino
Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Crumbly Writer

Does this impact what you process (i.e. does it make it easier, or harder for you)? Specifically, should I leave in the < p class="Inset" > commands, and do the extra < br > commands affect the SOL results (or even worse, for you to manually remove them again)?


The styled < p > tag doesn't affect anything. It gets treated as a plain < p > tag, so you don't need to do anything specific.

The < br > tags are supported but one at a time. Two or more successive < br > tags become a < p > tag.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Ernest Bywater

Very true, Mate. But if he comes up with a suitable converter program it may be worthwhile getting his permission to make it available for download from the site for people to use on their own computers to prepare a SoL ready file for you.


I would gladly host it.

Mind you, if the half dozen or so HTML tags I asked about before were accepted by SoL, I think it would solve the issue for many people. It definitely would for me - because those are the tags I spend most of the time converting to the Tagged Text code for a submission.


The only thing that you asked about and gets stripped are the h1 and h2 tags. I can help you by downgrading them automatically to h3 and h4.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Dominions Son

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


Pedantic are we?


Very, is that a problem? :)

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Dominions Son

Pedantic are we?


Very, is that a problem? :)


Not on this forum...

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


The only thing that you asked about and gets stripped are the h1 and h2 tags. I can help you by downgrading them automatically to h3 and h4.


Don't worry about. I already use H3 and H4 for other items. Since I have to work the file to include the Tagged Text colour commands, it's just as easy for me to do it all then.

I currently use the Notepad++ Replace All command to replace the < H1 > with { c } { red } { b } to get the presentation I want. Since I'm having to work that to get the colour in, there's no need for you to do extra work on it. - similar with the H2

Crumbly Writer

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

Pedantic are we?

Hey, we're authors. We live by our words, and screwing them up causes readers to get lost. For us, words count!

The < font color="red" > is invalid html 4.01 and html 5, so can't support it without making the site tag soup. The {red}, {blue} {green} tags are the correct formatting for colorisation. I could support it by converting it to the site's tags. Haven't done it already because nobody asked for it specifically.

I'm not sure it's terribly essential, as I suspect Ernest is the only one who uses it.

@Ernest

I prefer to, and currently do, use basic HTML and avoid using a CSS, but if there is a way to use one to get what I want at SoL as well as in HTML, then I'll use it - anything to reduce the workload on everyone involved.

SOL isn't geared to use Styles, they simply use basic paragraphs, so the CSS isn't necessary. I suspect Lazeez was referring to his own, internal CSS tags.

I do this for two reasons, the main one being when Calibre creates the Contents list for the e-pub it uses the H1 and H2 headings to do so, and ignores the Heading used for the title.

I quit relying on the h1 tags when I started using graphic chapter headers. I still use it, but I list the entries to include in the tag itself. < h1 title="Text chapter title" >

For the book title, I simply use title="Title Page", so the index will take the reader to the first page without listing the name of the book. You could also use this technique to create Index entries without creating separate pages in the document (if you want to do that).

The Slim Rhino
Updated:

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)


Should be no problem for authors. But OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice doesn't fit in our workflow. So we can't support it.


You don't need to support it. That's what the plugin is for that I'm working on. You write your text as a normal ODF file and then you select "Convert to SOL" from the menu and it produces a properly formatted file with SOL codes and all unsupported formatting already stripped. The goal is that people don't have to markup files manually anymore and you get properly prepared files.

Once we've tested it, I'll probably do an Office variant too.

In essence, since people can do their formatting on their own, it should lessen your workload too.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@The Slim Rhino

That would be awesome :)

Crumbly Writer

@The Slim Rhino

Once we've tested it, I'll probably do an Office variant too.

As a confirmed WORD user, one of my issues is keeping a uniform look to my different files. In essence, I maintain the Styles in my html submission--which get stripped out--but when I include the { p } header, I end up added several commands since the { p } doesn't break to a new line while viewing the displayed results. Thus, you may want to strip out any initial commands immediately following the initial { p } label.

The Slim Rhino

Preliminary report from inside LibreOffice/OpenOffice:

Those guys have definitely gotten all the things right that Microsoft got horribly wrong when designing VBA. Access to the documents and text formatting is ridiculously easy, and since we have a bank holiday and a whole day of train travel ahead (during which I can't do much more than type away at my laptop anyway) I might be able to present a first test version in time for next weekend. Those who are interested in helping test this plugin, please let me know, including which version of OpenOffice/Libreoffice/NeoOffice you're using.

Dominion's Son
Updated:

@The Slim Rhino

I'm interested in helping out. I'm on OpenOffice 4.1.2

shinerdrinker

@The Slim Rhino

Ditto for me. I'll test it for you. I'm also on OpenOffice 4.1.2.

If it works, I'll be happy.

Replies:   Capt Zapp
Capt Zapp

@shinerdrinker

also on OpenOffice 4.1.2.


Looks like I need to update. I'm using 4.1.1

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Capt Zapp


Looks like I need to update. I'm using 4.1.1


Yes you do, 4.1.2 was released last October.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@The Slim Rhino


Those who are interested in helping test this plugin, please let me know, including which version of OpenOffice/Libreoffice/NeoOffice you're using.


I'm interested i it, and I just sent you an email with some details on what format items I use. But I forgot to mention I'm using Libre Office version 5.1 and will be switching to 5.2 as soon as it comes out.

edit to add: In 5.0 or 5.1 they changed the Save icon button to be a Split Button with a drop-down box as well as the usual single action. I have problems using it on my screen, and started a Bugzilla thread on it. They acted on it, and in 5.2 they're putting in an option where you can activate the old style single action icon button instead of the Split Button. I want that, so I'll upgrade as soon as it comes out.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Bondi Beach
Updated:

@The Slim Rhino


@Crumbly Writer

Ha-ha. LaTeX is only a 20 - 30 year old print technology, so it's hardly the 'latest' in technology. But epub uses the majority of html code directly (with only a few command substistutions (like replacing styles with CSS definitions, and < br > commands with < br / >)). It's an easy transition to go from html to epub.

It may be 30 years old technology, but no HTML can make a printed book (or an ebook for that matter) better than one that was written in LaTeX.


Absolutely bang on. No question at all. Sorry, HTML weenies, it's no contest. Yes, there are more bells and whistles with HTML, but whether they improve is in the beholder's eye, and we know what that means...

(Could we argue about vi vs emacs next?)

(Psst. That's a joke. Let's not.)

bb

Replies:   Bondi Beach  graybyrd
Bondi Beach

@Bondi Beach

Absolutely bang on. No question at all. Sorry, HTML weenies, it's no contest. Yes, there are more bells and whistles with HTML, but whether they improve is in the beholder's eye, and we know what that means...


File this in the why-isn't that-not-very-interesting-but-I'll-tell-it-anyway file:

I heard Donald Knuth speak at a memorial service a couple of years ago. Granted, the guy is about 105 years old at this point so we'll cut him some slack, but it was not a compelling talk.

I sat there comparing this kind of rambling wandering narrative to the clean precise simple (well, with a LaTeX or other front end, anyway) program he'd written.

The guy is an artist as well as mathematician/computer guru.

bb

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

I'm interested i it, and I just sent you an email with some details on what format items I use. But I forgot to mention I'm using Libre Office version 5.1 and will be switching to 5.2 as soon as it comes out.

I've got to say, this option seems more popular than I'd assumed over the course of many discussions on the topic over the years. Someone will need to compare the coded output by both OO and LO to see how disparate they are. Another complication, releasing it first on either one is likely to intimate there's less support than there actually is, as I'm still assuming many authors use either M$ Office, other 'no-nonsense' writing tools or even worse, Google Docs!

@Bondi

I sat there comparing this kind of rambling wandering narrative to the clean precise simple (well, with a LaTeX or other front end, anyway) program he'd written.

That's why they pay us authors the big bucks! We're better with words than we are with code or numbers.

graybyrd

@Bondi Beach

Absolutely bang on. No question at all. Sorry, HTML weenies, it's no contest. Yes, there are more bells and whistles with HTML, but whether they improve is in the beholder's eye, and we know what that means...


Nothing like comparing apples & oranges, or yachts and motor homes, or sumo wrestlers and ballet dancers.

HTML and TeX/LaTeX have nothing whatsoever in common.

One is used to prepare unformatted documents for display on a wide range of display devices. The other is used to prepare highly-formatted documents for print.

HTML can be enhanced by adding CSS for display and formatting purposes, but properly done it should retain the original display flexibility. A good test is to grab a corner of the browser screen and resize it. The HTML/CSS will grow or shrink to follow the browser window resizing.

Not so with a TeX/LaTeX document. It would have to be reformatted and a new one generated to resize it for a different page size.

A .PDF page suffers the same restriction. It is hard-coded as a printed page for screen display.

Each has a purpose, and it's not correct to chortle and make yuk-yuks because one is not regarded as "pretty" as the other.

BTW, when I encounter a web page that won't resize to fit a chosen browser window size, that page is a failure; I close it and don't go back. It fails proper HTML/CSS standards.

Bondi Beach
Updated:

@graybyrd


Not so with a TeX/LaTeX document. It would have to be reformatted and a new one generated to resize it for a different page size.


Well, I did note that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I probably should have emphasized I was looking at printed material, not e-stuff.

(I speak as an MS Word user who relies on Lulu's conversion machine to produce a clean ePub, which it does. And speaking of converters, let us not speak of the Smashwords abomination.)

That said, here's the massive rewrite needed to reformat a LaTeX doc from Trade Paper (6x9) to U.S. Letter size:

Trade Paper:

usepackage[margin=1.0in,paperwidth=6in,paperheight=9in,marginparwidth=0.75in,marginparsep=0.10in]{geometry}

US Letter:

usepackage[margin=1.0in,letterpaper,marginparwidth=0.75in,marginparsep=0.10in]{geometry}

Done.

I like Sumo wrestlers and ballet dancers. Especially the skimpy costumes on the former.

bb

EDIT: "Weenies" was pretty mean. I shouldn't have used it. I must have been channeling the Republican candidates for president.

Crumbly Writer

@Bondi Beach

(I speak as an MS Word user who relies on Lulu's conversion machine to produce a clean ePub, which it does. And speaking of converters, let us not speak of the Smashwords abomination.)

The secret to decent epubs is NOT to rely on converters. Unfortunately, the time to structure and format the document each time you make changes to a document make it largely impractical for anything other than a 'one-time' conversion from one format to another.

Concerning smashwords, they allow authors to submit epubs (as a separate submission than the other document types), but no one can tell me how they handle updates to both epubs and source files for conversions.

graybyrd
Updated:

@Bondi Beach


Sumo wrestlers and ballet dancers


Nicely put. Somehow I've had a mental flashback to an old Walt Disney animated film with a scene of hippos in tutu's dancing Swan Lake...

Sumo wrestlers in tutu's and ballet dancers in... sumo _jockstraps?_

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

as I'm still assuming many authors use either M$ Office, other 'no-nonsense' writing tools or even worse, Google Docs!


Assuming is correct. In many European countries using Open Document Formats is the government standard and many use Open Office or Libre Office because they work the same on MS Windows as well as Linux and Unix. I'd think a lot of the authors over there will be using it too. The same applies to many countries outside of North America. However, since SoL and most of the author blogs etc are NA based, as a re a lot of companies like Amazon etc, it's easy to see a MS bias there.

Ernest Bywater

@graybyrd


BTW, when I encounter a web page that won't resize to fit a chosen browser window size, that page is a failure; I close it and don't go back. It fails proper HTML/CSS standards.


I wouldn't be surprised to find the page is coded all in javascript or the like instead of html.

Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

I speak as an MS Word user who relies on Lulu's conversion machine to produce a clean ePub, which it does.


You may wish to try using Calibre, it's free and it gives a bit more control over the finished e-pub product - Lulu accepts it with no problems - beyond posting a file from the future.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@graybyrd

Sumo wrestlers in tutu's and ballet dancers in... sumo _jockstraps?_


To my surprise, the Internet does not know about a female ballet dancer wearing a sumo jockstrap. Nor, except for some creative Photoshop efforts, about a sumo wrestler wearing a tutu.

But you can learn a lot about how a male ballet dancer uses a dance belt.

bb

Bondi Beach

@Ernest Bywater

You may wish to try using Calibre, it's free and it gives a bit more control over the finished e-pub product - Lulu accepts it with no problems - beyond posting a file from the future.


I've used Calibre to add a cover to my ePub, because I want the reader to have it and not just see the micro image in their library. Have't tried composing yet.

bb

Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

Have't tried composing yet.


It allows you to import the document and then converts it to the wanted output for you. It takes in .docx as well as .odt and others. I import the .odt file, then I amend the metadata to include the isbn and a few other things, then convert, adding the cover image at the same time.

My Lulu page has a Free book on it about creating an e-pub file using Calibre - I do need to update it, but what's there is good. It's also available free from Amazon, B&N, Apple Stores, Kobo, and Nook.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/ernest-bywater/make-a-good-e-pub/ebook/product-22124365.html

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

M$ Office, other 'no-nonsense'


MS Office and 'no-nonsense' don't belong in the same paragraph.

Replies:   graybyrd  richardshagrin
graybyrd

@Dominions Son

don't belong in the same paragraph


Ranks right up there with military intelligence, don't it!

My last copy of Word is version 5.1a for Mac OS-9. It still runs. Last decent version MS ever released (at least for Mac). I'm waiting for MS to begin sending monthly subscription charges for it...

richardshagrin

@Dominions Son

Suggested revision to save type. "MS and nonsense belong in the same paragraph."

shinerdrinker

Okay... I'll say it.

I'd rather use Notepad than MS Word.

And I have in the past.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@shinerdrinker

I'd rather use Notepad than MS Word.


Do you suppose that Notepad will still run under Windows 10? (I can't imagine MS continuing to give away for free something as useful as Notepad much longer.)

Replies:   shinerdrinker
shinerdrinker

@graybyrd

I have Windows 10 and I still use it for quick notes cause the program is small and I can open and close it quickly rather than needing to keep it open in the background the whole time I am working or writing.

The Slim Rhino

@Crumbly Writer

I've got to say, this option seems more popular than I'd assumed over the course of many discussions on the topic over the years. Someone will need to compare the coded output by both OO and LO to see how disparate they are. Another complication, releasing it first on either one is likely to intimate there's less support than there actually is, as I'm still assuming many authors use either M$ Office, other 'no-nonsense' writing tools or even worse, Google Docs!


The plugin should work for Libreoffice, OpenOffice and NeoOffice right out of the box. The Internal script language was designed for OpenOffice 3.4 which was way before the fork of LibreOffice.

The plugin would have been ridiculously easy to write if it wasn't for the fact that { i } and { b } tags cannot span across paragraphs, which means it needs some extra handling that may require retroactive changes to already converted earlier paragraphs when encountering bold or italic texts that span several paragraphs.

The other thing is recognizing scene separators for the case that people use custom ones instead of *****

I'm one of those people...

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@The Slim Rhino

The other thing is recognizing scene separators for the case that people use custom ones instead of *****


Isn't that what the horizontal rule is for??

Heck even if what the system did was just to incorporate the actual text or image the people put it, they'd be ahead.

as to multi-paragraph bold and italics and font colour, the current format code applies that stuff on a paragraph by paragraph basis. So why not just have the converter do that, but only recognise the ones SoL uses?

I'll leave it all up to you, since you know what you're doing with the coding. Just thought I'd toss a few thoughts in there in response to your comment.

Replies:   The Slim Rhino
The Slim Rhino

@Ernest Bywater

Isn't that what the horizontal rule is for??


I use custom markers in my Star Trek Stories that are meant to resemble the early Starfleet Logo (see "I grieve with thee" for reference). I've developed a logic for that, but it's a bit more tricky to code.

As for the bolds and italics paragraphs, you've just given me an idea that'll save me a crap load of work.

I initially wanted to have an output like that

{_ first italic paragraph

sencond italic paragraph_}

Why not code it like that

{ i }First italic paragraph{ / i }

{ i }Second italic paragraph { / i }

Brilliant idea :) I owe you one.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@The Slim Rhino

{ i }First italic paragraph{ / i }

{ i }Second italic paragraph { / i }


I often do a section of multiple paragraphs that are block quoted. I used to use the SoL tagged text block but very recently switch to just having each paragraph set up as:

{ blue } { i } text text { / i } { / blue }

The only thing to really watch out for using this process with a paragraph and a header, is to make sure you close everything off in the right order at the end of the paragraph.

I do the same with the H1 and H2 and H3 headers all three a centered, H1 is bold red, H2 is bold blue italics, and H3 is plain bold so they end up with the relevant variants of below:

{ c } { blue } { i } { b } text text { / b } { / i } { / blue }

I've also found leaving a blank line between paragraphs and between the header line and the paragraph minimises problems of the code accidentally flowing into the next paragraph.

I've found doing it this way give me more flexibility and ensures each paragraph gets the right code without any accidental issues with the SoL wizard, which has been known to have the odd hiccup at times.

tppm
Updated:

Skipping a bunch of detailed descriptions. Make a plain text copy and submit it to the posting wizard.

If you need a bunch of special effects to carry your story you need to work on your writing skill.

Thank you to everyone who pointed out my homonym confusion. My point stands, however.

graybyrd

@tppm

If you need a bunch of special effects


maybe so, but where would a christmas tree be without ornaments; a prom queen without jewelry, or a pig without a curly tail. or a troll without ...

The Slim Rhino
Updated:

@tppm


Skipping a bunch of detailed descriptions. Make a plane text copy and submit it to the posting wizard.

If you need a bunch of special effects to carry your story you need to work on your writing skill.


And you need an attitude adjustment it seems.Come back when you have to add more to the discussion than a mindless attack on fellow authors. Oh, and it's 'plain text copy'. You should feel ashamed of needing a German to explain your own language to you.

richardshagrin

@tppm

I assume you send the plane text copy airmail.

Ernest Bywater

@tppm

If you need a bunch of special effects to carry your story you need to work on your writing skill.


There's a hell of a difference between selling something and providing a good presentation and I'm sorry you don't seem to realise that.

Many a very good car had poor sales because it didn't look nice enough to sell well.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@Ernest Bywater

and I'm sorry you don't seem to realise that


No you're not!

Come on, folks. Let's stifle the personal put-downs. It's counter-productive. And if it's a troll that made the original non-productive comment, you're just inviting a war with hammers and boiling oil and poison arrows.

So let's knock this shit off. It ain't helpful.

Grant

@tppm

If you need a bunch of special effects to carry your story you need to work on your writing skill.

Doesn't matter how well written something is if you can't read it.
There have been several stories I gave up on reading because of the lack of basic formatting- I find big solid blocks of text impossible to read.

Along with spelling & punctuation, complete sentences, paragraphs, larger breaks between sections that are still part of the same chapter all make it possible to read a story.

Replies:   tppm
Crumbly Writer

@Bondi Beach

I've used Calibre to add a cover to my ePub, because I want the reader to have it and not just see the micro image in their library. Have't tried composing yet.

I've done a lot of research into editing Calibre code and getting it to behave as you want it to, also in hand coding their internal TOC. If you need any advice, drop me a line and I'll help resolve any specific issues you may have (if I know how, that is).

@DS

MS Office and 'no-nonsense' don't belong in the same paragraph.

Sorry, that's the purpose of the comma, to separate two separate elements. I was referring to M$ Office AND the other 'writing only' tools currently popping up all over the place. I wasn't implying that M$ wasn't complicated, only that there are alternatives to also consider.

@Shrinedrinker

I'd rather use Notepad than MS Word.

Sorry, I understand your point, but I need something that supports Style Definitions, and Notepad just won't fly. OO and LO do, but since I worked in U.S. businesses for decades, I'm more familiar with Office. Hell, I can still hand code indexes, tying specific characters to specific pages in a document! Try that in Notepad. (Not that I do that in my fiction works either.)

@The Slim[e] Rhino 'D

The other thing is recognizing scene separators for the case that people use custom ones instead of *****

You're not the only one. In fact, while I use underscores ("_") in my html, I use graphic line separators in my original source documents. That's why I edit my html documents by hand (to remove both my crap and the crap that M$ inserts into html files).

@Ernest Bywater

Isn't that what the horizontal rule is for??

The horizontal rule has a particular look, it isn't as clean, and it tends to span too large of a space. I used to use it extensively, but never like the results, and have recently been stripping it out of ALL my documents! It produces a soft-focus, blurry line, rather than a clear distinction between sections. When I used it, I'd include 'width="xx%"' qualifiers.

@The Slim Rhino

I use custom markers in my Star Trek Stories that are meant to resemble the early Starfleet Logo (see "I grieve with thee" for reference). I've developed a logic for that, but it's a bit more tricky to code.

I'd do like SOL does, and simply delete anything you don't understand. SOL doesn't accept graphic section breaks only (only allowing graphics at the start of each chapter), so there's no point in including the graphics. If authors want to include it, they can edit your produced file. That's a reasonable solution, rather than trying to account for everything anyone might want to try.

@tppm

If you need a bunch of special effects to carry your story you need to work on your writing skill.

No, we're writing for more than just SOL (which doesn't support it anyway). For a printed volume, graphics provide a nice contrast to text, and helps justify the higher cost of the books. Take a look at many published books, and you'll see a variety of graphics (especially in the hard-bound, or 6"x9" volumes, which is what many of us are publishing in).

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
tppm
Updated:

@Grant


Doesn't matter how well written something is if you can't read it.

There have been several stories I gave up on reading because of the lack of basic formatting- I find big solid blocks of text impossible to read.

Along with spelling & punctuation, complete sentences, paragraphs, larger breaks between sections that are still part of the same chapter all make it possible to read a story.


Those are all easily done in plain text.

@Crumbly Writer

No, we're writing for more than just SOL (which doesn't support it anyway). For a printed volume, graphics provide a nice contrast to text, and helps justify the higher cost of the books. Take a look at many published books, and you'll see a variety of graphics (especially in the hard-bound, or 6"x9" volumes, which is what many of us are publishing in).


The thing I notice most in published books is the words. Pretty graphics and illustrations are a nice addition, as long as they aren't overdone and distracting from the story, but they're the publisher's purview, and have nothing to do with the story.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

The horizontal rule has a particular look, it isn't as clean, and it tends to span too large of a space.


I don't use the actual Horizontal Rule command, so I can't speak to the last half of the sentence. However, for a major scene break within a chapter where I don't use a section header I use a centered half line long underscore line as my version of the horizontal line and have a blank line before and after it. I think it looks very clean and makes the break very clear.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@tppm

Make a plain text copy and submit it to the posting wizard.


A good writer uses all the tools available. Other than the obvious grammatical tools of quotes and punctuation text format is a very useful tool. Italics and bold to emphasis various things, and the use of indented text to show a reproduction of a written letter or message etc is a very old writing tool as well. Can't do all these in plain text documents, and thus lose the richness of the story, and sometimes the plot itself when people have to take time out from the story to work out why the change when a format change would have made it clear what was happening.

Replies:   graybyrd
Perv Otaku

I use WordPerfect as my primary writing area. When it's time to post, I run a series of find/replace to, among other things:
Remove the tab indents at the start of each paragraph.
Replace the blank lines between scenes within a chapter with a text divider (i.e. - - -).
Replace all hard returns with two hard returns to create proper web-style formatting.

I also make a note of any italics used so I can re-insert them when needed.

Then I turn that whole thing into an rtf file that becomes the source for posting in most places.

Since SOL uses some unique code features, a specific set of find/replace searches further prepares the text for here.

Another round of find/replace inserts html tags at the line breaks, and then I drop in some other stock code, and there's a web page version.

graybyrd

@Ernest Bywater

Can't do all these in plain text documents, and thus lose the richness of the story, and sometimes the plot itself when people have to take time out from the story to work out why the change when a format change would have made it clear what was happening.


Sorry, but that's just an opinion, not a fact.

"Thus lose the richness of the story...?" because it lacks indented text ... ? "A format change is required to make it clear what is happening?"

It's one thing to enjoy adding embellishments and wingnuts and sparklywinkles to your own publishing efforts ... that's your choice.

But please don't be climbing onto another author's back to hit them over the head with your disdain for text and HTML. It's simply wrong, and rude.

I cannot begin to count the number of books, both paperback and hardback, both, that I've lost hours of sleep over because the text ... unembellished, unadorned, lacking ornaments and decorations and dividers and pointers ... was so damned good I couldn't put it down. And never did I feel I needed that stuff to make it clear what was happening.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@tppm

The thing I notice most in published books is the words. Pretty graphics and illustrations are a nice addition, as long as they aren't overdone and distracting from the story, but they're the publisher's purview, and have nothing to do with the story.

I agree. The story must always stand on it's own. But, moderate use of graphics, in the proper setting, can help set the mood of a story, or can relieve the continual 'wall of text' issue by giving the eyes a break occasionally (say with section breaks or chapter headers).

I find this insistence on 'nothing but ascii text characters' to be an overemphasis on simplicity (such as eliminating italics for thoughts, titles and telepathic communications). If formatting can help a story, I'm all for it. If it's a distraction, it can either be eliminated or ignored.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

I don't use the actual Horizontal Rule command, so I can't speak to the last half of the sentence. However, for a major scene break within a chapter where I don't use a section header I use a centered half line long underscore line as my version of the horizontal line and have a blank line before and after it. I think it looks very clean and makes the break very clear.

I do the same thing. It's a much nicer look than either the html horizonal line command < hr >, or "* * * * *". It's simple, works on any device, and is clear in it's interpretation.

Crumbly Writer

@graybyrd

And never did I feel I needed that stuff to make it clear what was happening.

It's not strictly necessary. After all, authors have been writing for thousands of years, without any special formatting tools other than their fingers. But still, it's easier to parse that you're reading something else (a hand-written note, or a public address), when it's indented. It sets it apart, and alerts the reader that it's not a simple continuation of the story. The reader knows to pay attention, so they're likely to pick up the change in context.

The same is true for italics. I'm not a fan of bolding or color changes--too often it's a mark of a beginning writer's lack of confidence that they'll use a variety of conflicting formats. But ... sometimes an author wants to highlight a specific word to emphasize how a passage is spoken (especially in dialogue), and so the italics do help convey meaning.

The key is to avoid getting carried away. It's like adding emphasis. Having someone shout "GET DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" doesn't add any import to the story. "Get down!" is clear and concise. There's no need to add unnecessary complications.

That said, in a world of abundant FREE 5,000 word "novels", it's nice being able to justify a heftier $5.99 ebook price by adding higher production values.

It's like adding publishing marks, especially em-dashes and ellipses. You can simply include a simple dash, or three dots, but you can achieve much more with the printed text (like designating an interruption in speech) if you use the proper tools.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@Crumbly Writer

It's not strictly necessary.


Not strictly nor generally necessary, either. Not necessary a'tall, truth be known. But that's not really what all the confusion seems to be about. Let's differentiate 'twixt two things here:

SCREEN: keep it simple. Keep it universal. My 21" monitor & my 4" phablet need universal coding to display the same page of text. That's (X)HTML. SOL/FS has it down very nicely! Just enough bling & eye-candy to do what y'all are advocating here: italics, bold, blockquote, color, ... and... all of that can be done by posting a dead-simple .md.txt file. Or you can do it via Microsoft Word with three layers of translation, filtering, search & replace, and pixie dust. But the end result is the same. Both achieve EXACTLY the same result on SOL/FS story page results.

PRINTED PAGE: Some of us use .md.txt to get .rtf, .fodt, or .pdf output. OTHERS amongst us turn loose the entire inventory of Microsoft Word machinery to achieve a miraculous representation of a 17th Century Trappist Monk's Hand-Lettered Illuminated Holy Psalm Book. Wunnerful, wunnerful!

But that's not what's being argued here, endlessly and pointlessly. What IS being argued here is what happens when one confuses the requirements for screen display versus the luxury of printed page production.

BTW, nobody advocates a screen/page containing purely ASCII text (which has been mostly replaced by UTF-8) unless you're talking dot-matrix tractor-feed sheets from an 8-bit Tandy/DOS machine.

Damn but things were more simple when all we had was typewriters. But then there were two warring camps at each others' throats: pica versus elite! And do you indent 3 or 5 spaces! And double-spacing saves paper, while triple-spacing is wasteful! And no real writer EVER uses correction fluid! Just backspace and strike-thru, so the editor can see what you were thinking!

And so on ... does anyone remember how many years it took to get the average computer user to STOP double-spacing after a period? And to not use the space bar to indent lists and tables? That was another "screen vs. page" kerfuffle. I think we've finally gotten past that one.

Ernest Bywater

@graybyrd

does anyone remember how many years it took to get the average computer user to STOP double-spacing after a period? And to not use the space bar to indent lists and tables?


It hasn't stopped yet. May when those doing it all die out.

Ernest Bywater

@graybyrd

when one confuses the requirements for screen display versus the luxury of printed page production.


I don't use all the format options available to me, but use a mix to differentiate the text for certain context usages to carry across in print and a number of screen uses so I don't have to do much work to get a good and easy to follow presentation in the main final products I use. I covered all this in earlier posts.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Ah, yes, EB ... but have you yet achieved a miraculous representation of a 17th Century Trappist Monk's Hand-Lettered Illuminated Holy Psalm Book?

(grin) You.Get.The.Last.Word.As.Usual.

Crumbly Writer

@graybyrd

OTHERS amongst us turn loose the entire inventory of Microsoft Word machinery to achieve a miraculous representation of a 17th Century Trappist Monk's Hand-Lettered Illuminated Holy Psalm Book.

Sorry to disappoint you, but while I do some advanced things, I don't do them in WORD. I use WORD to:

1: use Style Definitions to ensure all my text is formatted consistently across every usage, and
2: to calculate page numbers, so I can create a text based table of contents.

All my other formatting "bells and whistles" are done elsewhere, like in html or image processors.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@Crumbly Writer

Sorry to disappoint you


Yup. I am disappointed. LibreOffice, perhaps?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
tppm

@graybyrd

STOP double-spacing after a period?


I still double space between sentences (and I use a proportional font (TNR) by preference).

Replies:   graybyrd
Crumbly Writer

@graybyrd

Yup. I am disappointed. LibreOffice, perhaps?

Nope. I've got no problem with LO or OO, but having worked for years in a variety of American businesses, I'm simply more familiar with WORD. But the point is, you can't blame over the top graphics on programs you don't like.

Replies:   graybyrd
graybyrd

@tppm

I still double space between sentences (and I use a proportional font (TNR) by preference).


And here we get into a problem of semantics. There's the 'space bar' which inserts spaces between words. And there's the carriage return, which advances the paper on the roller, which in computer text is called a 'line feed.' Except we got into a pesky habit of calling manuscript line spacing 'double spaced' or 'triple spaced' ... and that's nothing to do with the space bar, obviously.

Confused yet? (grin) So a double-space after a period is two thumps on the space bar, and double-spaced lines are two jabs on the return key. Yeh, we're still confused.

That's the magic of language.

I use a proportional font in my on-screen drafting; it's easier to read. I like Gazette LT Std. It's a nice news font, designed for easy reading. I also like Courier Prime (an open-source font; giggle it to download) mono-space font, but its not as easy for my eyes to scan and read. TNR makes my teeth ache, but that's because I'm old and weird.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
graybyrd
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


you can't blame over the top graphics on programs you don't like.


I don't. Stopped doing that... February 23, 1982.

Crumbly Writer

@graybyrd

I use a proportional font in my on-screen drafting; it's easier to read. I like Gazette LT Std. It's a nice news font, designed for easy reading. I also like Courier Prime (an open-source font; giggle it to download) mono-space font, but its not as easy for my eyes to scan and read. TNR makes my teeth ache, but that's because I'm old and weird.

And that's your perrogative, as SOL, html and most ebooks support that. That's why authors don't insert font specifics (fonts, font sizes, etc.) into our documents. Instead, we also use proportional sizes. Double sized characters become "2em;" in html end epub, so whatever the size of your selected font, it doubles in size.

However, the 'double spaces' reference is really a non-starter. However the phrase originated, everyone knows what it means, regardless of when they learned computers. It's simply spacing paragraphs so there are two lines after each paragraph instead of one. Few of us actually hit the return key twice (technically, these were be two paragraphs marks, rather than two linefeeds, as linefeeds are frowned upon for ending paragraphs). Instead, we define our default paragraph style to put enough space after each paragraph to insert comments. That way, the actual paragraph spacing rests with the user/site it's displayed on.

And yes, lifefeeds are still used, but they're now restricted to cases where we want to continue the same paragraph on another line, such as in the use of poetry, where the spacing of the line is important.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  tppm
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


However, the 'double spaces' reference is really a non-starter. However the phrase originated, everyone knows what it means, regardless of when they learned computers. It's simply spacing paragraphs so there are two lines after each paragraph instead of one.


CW,

I always had the understanding that double spacing in text went back to the early days of using typewriters were two character spacers were left between the full stop and the first letter of the next sentence to make the start of the sentence stand out more. This was achieved by hitting the space bar twice. There are some people who still do this with computer generated text documents. If you replace the space bar spaces after the full stop with an underscore line the difference you get is:

... the ship stopped.__The captain said ...

... the ship stopped._The captain said ...

With the old typewriters the small full stop was often missed, so the extra wide space made it stand out more.

typo edit

The Slim Rhino
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

Double space do disappear in html though unless you enforce them with & nbsp;

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


I always had the understanding that double spacing in text went back to the early days of using typewriters were two character spacers were left between the full stop and the first letter of the next sentence to make the start of the sentence stand out more.


Nope. That's officially called "putting too many spaces after the period/full-stop". "Double spacing" is the technical term for adding extra spacing either between lines of text or paragraphs, so readers can make notes or to make it easier to read. "Double carriage returns" or more accurately "double paragraph marks", if you will.

Note: Usage may differ in lands down under.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Ernest Bywater

With the old typewriters the small full stop was often missed, so the extra wide space made it stand out more.


For those of us with bad eyesight, high resolution monitors and some fonts make it difficult at times to distinguish a comma from a period so two spaces between sentences is still useful.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

putting too many spaces after the period/full-stop


Says you. Some of us still find it useful.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

For those of us with bad eyesight, high resolution monitors and some fonts make it difficult at times to distinguish a comma from a period so two spaces between sentences is still useful.

A better approach is to either increase the font size, or switch to a clearer font--say one which isn't proportional. But for publishing, which is what we all do, even if we just post here on SOL, you shouldn't force it on readers. That's why html was designed to ignore extra spaces.

I'm not saying it doesn't help, but it's not up to an author to decide what fonts and character spacing a reader uses. If you enforce extra spaces, you're just as likely to annoy younger readers.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

. But for publishing, which is what we all do, even if we just post here on SOL, you shouldn't force it on readers. That's why html was designed to ignore extra spaces.


That's fine, but I write my master document with the two spaces, because it's easier for me to read.

Bondi Beach

@graybyrd

SCREEN: keep it simple. Keep it universal. My 21" monitor & my 4" phablet need universal coding to display the same page of text. That's (X)HTML. SOL/FS has it down very nicely! Just enough bling & eye-candy to do what y'all are advocating here: italics, bold, blockquote, color,


Second that.

bb

tppm

@Crumbly Writer

I'm referring to two spaces after the punctuation mark at the end of a sentence, as opposed to the one space between words.

I also double space (insert a blank line) between paragraphs. I prefer to do this with paragraph breaks as that forces the spacing, regardless of what the program does.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@tppm

I also double space (insert a blank line) between paragraphs. I prefer to do this with paragraph breaks as that forces the spacing, regardless of what the program does.

I take the opposite approach. By relying on Style Definitions, my source documents are double spaced, but the final documents are already formatted as single spaced. Thus I don't have to worry about how each document will look, as long as I correctly label them as I'm writing. (SOL postings don't count, as they only accept one type of paragraph in any case.)

The Slim Rhino

Hi everybody. Short status report on the OpenOffice/LibreOffice converter. It has reached alpha status and I'll post a first document on Monday or Tuesday that has been created entirely automatically. That means you all get to test it during the week. I have received about twelve offers from potential testers, but nearly all use OpenOffice, so I'd appreciate if one or two Mac users would be able to test it in Neo Office and perhaps one or two more people who use LibreOffice.

rustyken

I think I am missing something in this conversation. I've prepared stories using LibreOffice and saved as a html after all the proofing is complete. The html file was submitted to SOL for posting. I've looked at some of these after posting and they looked fine. Some portions do have a lot of dialog in italics, but it all seems to come through. I've opened the files directly with Firefox and again they looked fine. The layout was different than SOL due to the lack of the SOL style sheet.

One noticeable difference between my submission and posted content is the space between sentences. I have a preference for two spaces as I think it reads better.

Or perhaps a better question is how does this extra effort benefit the community? that is the reader and SOL staff.

Cheers, RustyKen

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@rustyken

I think I am missing something in this conversation.


The Slim Rhino is developing a plug-in to convert an LO .odt file direct into a SoL ready file - much the same way as the one click icon creates a PDF file from the master file for you. This saves you having to create the html file.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

The Slim Rhino is developing a plug-in to convert an LO .odt file direct into a SoL ready file - much the same way as the one click icon creates a PDF file from the master file for you. This saves you having to create the html file.

The plug-in is supposed to avoid the bloatware that those programs (mostly M$) puts into their html files, as well as converting directly to SOL specific code (rather than html tags).

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