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Why do people get upset so easily?

Switch Blayde

It seems that almost every thread turns into name calling. And not just here. I recently participated on an ASSTR email group discussion where someone jumped all over me.

ASSTR has basically died. Someone started a discussion asking if people would be willing to fund the building of a new site to replace ASSTR. I thought I was trying to help when I said I once had my own site and not to underestimate the time it takes to maintain it and they should first think about posting on other sites like SOL. The guy jumped all over me. He said I was continuously pushing SOL down their throats.

It's the same here, if not worse. Why does every discussion turn into name calling and shouting?

Replies:   REP  Keet  Grant  awnlee jawking
REP

@Switch Blayde

Because some people cannot accept or tolerate that someone else disagrees with them. They have to prove the other person is wrong. Sometimes they are successful, but usually their attempts fail. Then the tempers flare and words get tossed around.

Replies:   Zom
Keet
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

I wonder if that same guy had some good, reasonable points to why SOL (or any other site) is not an acceptable alternative. I bet he had none.

doctor_wing_nut

Anonymous Bravery, with no fear of tangible repercussions for their digital assaults.

Anybody can get to be the bully sometimes on Da Interwebs.

I post less all the time, because somebody always takes exception to what I say, even when I'm trying to be nice. Can't win, don't play.

Replies:   Zom  Switch Blayde
sharkjcw

@Keet

Maybe looking to start new site for the pedo stories. SOL and other sites would not work as a host.

Replies:   Keet
Capt. Zapp

@Keet

I wonder if that same guy had some good, reasonable points to why SOL (or any other site) is not an acceptable alternative. I bet he had none.


He probably only had ONE. That being the fact that SOL doesn't accept stories involving underage sex.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Darian Wolfe

I would say a lot of us, myself included, have less than sterling social skills. We choose to have a significant part of our meaningful interactions here. In other words, this matters to us.

I am married. Other than my wife, children, and grandchildren, there are a very small number of people I have meaningful face to face contact with. A large part of that is by choice, Most people are uninteresting to me. Those who are interesting often have different schedules or needs than my own that prevent spending time together.

Then there are my medical needs that limit when I can be outside, where I can go and for how long. The end result is I have two close friends who I speak with on the phone, a few people I say hi to here and there and this forum. Yay, me.

So I spend more time here than is probably reasonable and am more emotionally invested than those with more active lives because I know there are other souls here like me. Each struggling with our own darkness and hope. Each reassuring the other by our presence. If we raise hell, what of it? Sure it gets tiresome like that eyesore of a topic that hangs like a garish painting ;) It's something to do. Just think of it like old men arguing. We know how to go to our rooms when we're tired of it.

Michael Loucks

@Capt. Zapp

He probably only had ONE. That being the fact that SOL doesn't accept stories involving underage sex.


SOL doesn't accept stories involving under-fourteens in sexual activity (including nudity) if described in the story. You can talk about it, in a limited way, but not go into detail. If you are unsure of anything, ask Lazeez for a ruling.

Fourteen and up? Generally no problem.

Replies:   Capt. Zapp  docholladay
Dominions Son

@Keet

I bet he had none.


Maybe he writes or wants to read pedo stories (real pedo, pre-teens). That would be a good reason to not see SOL as a good option.

Capt. Zapp

@Michael Loucks

Damn. I thought that was what I said.

docholladay

@Michael Loucks

SOL doesn't accept stories involving under-fourteens in sexual activity Fourteen and up? Generally no problem.


SOL isn't the only site with that rule. At least one other site has the same basic rule with a major difference. The other site I know of does not have the grandfather rule which allows the under 14 if the posting started before the new rule/law was added. I do tend to avoid those stories personally however but I do know some still exist here. And other places.

Zom

@REP

Because some people cannot accept or tolerate that someone else disagrees with them

Because some people pontificate wisdom as though it was solely theirs to give, even when they haven't a clue that they ere completely off the mark.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Zom

@doctor_wing_nut

Anybody can get to be the bully sometimes on Da Interwebs

REP would know.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Keet

I wonder if that same guy had some good, reasonable points to why SOL (or any other site) is not an acceptable alternative. I bet he had none.


He actually did. He had three requirements (which he brought up after bashing me) and SOL didn't meet 2 of them. 1) underage sex. 2) the author can format their own website. 3) was the one SOL met — no ads.

That wasn't the point. I never tried to force anyone over to SOL. I suggested it several times only to be helpful. Because he didn't like that, he attacked me.

I didn't attack him back. I simply said that I didn't understand what he had against me and was simply trying to help. That was my last post. I dropped it.

Someone else then got attacked who did respond and it became a flame war. The moderator stopped it.

Replies:   Keet
Switch Blayde

@doctor_wing_nut

Anonymous Bravery, with no fear of tangible repercussions for their digital assaults.


That describes Twitter.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Switch Blayde

@Zom

Because some people pontificate wisdom as though it was solely theirs to give, even when they haven't a clue that they ere completely off the mark.


I didn't mean for you to bring it to this thread. It's what the thread is about.

Replies:   Zom
Switch Blayde

@Zom

REP would know.


See my last post.

Grant

@Switch Blayde

Why does every discussion turn into name calling and shouting?

It's called the Internet.

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

I wonder if that same guy had some good, reasonable points to why SOL (or any other site) is not an acceptable alternative. I bet he had none.

From being a part of the discussion, and defending Switch, it's primarily because he writes kiddie-porn, and thus he CAN'T legally post anyone BESIDES ASSTR. But the conversation quickly deescalated from there, with him essentially calling Switch a 'traitor' for NOT posting kiddie-porn, and to please leave all of the 'regulars' alone and no longer visit the site or volunteer any suggestions, because he 'wasn't welcomed'.

No matter WHAT they offer in terms of a new site, I will NOT be visiting it, under ANY circumstances!!!

Replies:   Keet
Zom

@Switch Blayde


I didn't mean for you to bring it to this thread. It's what the thread is about.

Really? That's a surprise. I just want to make sure that everyone knows what an amazing resource REP is, with his infinte wisdom and unbounded knowledge.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@Zom

Really? That's a surprise.


I actually wasn't picking on you or anyone else. It was brought up in general terms because it happens all the time from almost everyone. I guess the psychologists will be writing about it in the future (or maybe the historians). The worse offender is Twitter. I've never seen so many bullies as is on Twitter.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  Zom
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

The worse offender is Twitter. I've never seen so many bullies as is on Twitter.

Have you ever visited either an Apple or Samsung discussion site? It makes the discussions here look like pillow fights.

Replies:   Argon  Keet
Zom

@Switch Blayde

It was brought up in general terms because it happens all the time from almost everyone.

I think there is a difference between being angry with someone, and abusing them. I am certainly angry with someone, but I am not going to descend into abuse. Of course, REP will almost certainly have a better grasp of my issues than I have.

I guess the psychologists will be writing about it in the future...

I feel confident they already are. I have significant experience dealing with anonymised nuisances and abusers, from well before the Internet ever came into being.

I think REP will probably have more experience than I do though, so I will leave it to him to impart the solution that I know works.

Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

That describes Twitter.


Twitter describes itself. Most of their users are twits.

Argon

@Crumbly Writer

Have you ever visited either an Apple or Samsung discussion site? It makes the discussions here look like pillow fights.


LOL! You mean macdailynews.com? It's become tedious. A thread may start about the new colour of an iPhone, but 5 posts down, the knuckle dusters are slipped on about some pseudo-political issue (mostly bad Obama and good Trump and vice versa). I only visit when I'm in the mood to watch mayhem.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Argon

I wasn't even discussing the political rants, but the ever-present "Max Sheep"/"MAC Clones" arguments. I never understood why fans of Samsung products would spend all of their time on a Mac site, but for a while Samsung was paying users to trash their competitors.

Keet
Updated:

@sharkjcw

Maybe looking to start new site for the pedo stories. SOL and other sites would not work as a host.

Ah, yes of course, didn't think of that.

Keet

@Switch Blayde

He actually did. He had three requirements (which he brought up after bashing me) and SOL didn't meet 2 of them. 1) underage sex. 2) the author can format their own website. 3) was the one SOL met — no ads.

That wasn't the point. I never tried to force anyone over to SOL. I suggested it several times only to be helpful. Because he didn't like that, he attacked me.

Anybody can create a (simple) site. I dare to guess that it is easier then using ASSTR. So the only point that sticks is the no underage sex. If that is so important to him then he is not someone you want to associate with.
Smart that you stopped responding, there is no way to have a reasonable discussion with someone like that.

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

Have you ever visited either an Apple or Samsung discussion site? It makes the discussions here look like pillow fights.

Not only on discussion sites. I stopped reading Conductor when every chapter just had to mention an iPhone or iPad. What's wrong with using "(smart)phone" and "tablet" in stories?

Switch Blayde

@Keet

mention an iPhone or iPad. What's wrong with using "(smart)phone" and "tablet" in stories?


They say to be specific. Say he gave her roses rather than flowers. I use iPhone in my stories too. Sometimes cell phone. Sometimes smart phone. But more likely iPhone.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
Keet
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


They say to be specific.


Yeah... they say. Only in very special cases when a brand is required this would be true.

Say he gave her roses rather than flowers. I use iPhone in my stories too. Sometimes cell phone. Sometimes smart phone. But more likely iPhone.


You do realize that iPhone is only big in the US but worldwide has a market share under 20%? A great number of readers will not identify with it and some will even hate it. How would you like a story where every time a phone was mentioned it said "Samsung" or "Nokia". That would be exactly the same and I would hate that just as much, it just doesn't add anything to the story. I guess a lot of authors use a iOS so for them it easy to think that Mac==computer or iPhone==smartphone, for readers no so much.

Switch Blayde

@Keet

but worldwide has a market share under 20%


Didn't know that.

Replies:   Keet
Keet

@Switch Blayde

http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide

Capt. Zapp

@Keet

Only in very special cases when a brand is required this would be true.


In my stories, I do my best to stay away from any real product, business, or even location names.

Replies:   Keet  Crumbly Writer
Keet

@Capt. Zapp

In my stories, I do my best to stay away from any real product, business, or even location names.

Good! Image an author wrote a story 2 years ago and kept on mentioning "Brand X" but now that brand doesn't exist anymore or got a really bad name. I don't think you would want that in your story.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@Keet

Good! Image an author wrote a story 2 years ago and kept on mentioning "Brand X" but now that brand doesn't exist anymore or got a really bad name. I don't think you would want that in your story.


Actually, if it's historically relevant, you might. I use dead brands, closed businesses, and other things if they are period-appropriate.

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

Not only on discussion sites. I stopped reading Conductor when every chapter just had to mention an iPhone or iPad. What's wrong with using "(smart)phone" and "tablet" in stories?

Technically, readers prefer specifics to generalities, as it makes stories feel more 'lived in'. Thus it's generally better to refer to an iPad than it is to a generic "tablet device", just as it helps a story to refer to specific businesses in a story set in a specific city.

However, as you correctly point out, it's stupid to dump the information on readers, because then the author merely sounds like a shill. It's also better to NOT mention products that readers can't afford, unless the entire story is a 'wish-fulfillment' fantasy, in which case the more extravagant the author is, the more readers like it.

Sadly, that doesn't really address your point, but I wanted to provide some feedback on WHY authors use specific references. But once again, there's a wise way to add that information, and a clumsy way to do something without realizing what you're doing. :(

Replies:   Capt. Zapp  Keet  Harold Wilson
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

They say to be specific. Say he gave her roses rather than flowers. I use iPhone in my stories too. Sometimes cell phone. Sometimes smart phone. But more likely iPhone.

Switch has an excellent point. You want to be specific, just so it sounds like someone's actual life, rather than a simply cardboard cutout of someone's life. But you can't overplay your hand. So rather than continually repeating the same thing every time (such as every time they check the time), you 'switch it up'. That's why authors live and die by a Thesaurus. By alternating uses, it lessons how obnoxious this ploy is to the reader, keeping the uses 'fresh' rather than staid and worn.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Keet

You do realize that iPhone is only big in the US but worldwide has a market share under 20%? A great number of readers will not identify with it and some will even hate it. How would you like a story where every time a phone was mentioned it said "Samsung" or "Nokia". That would be exactly the same and I would hate that just as much, it just doesn't add anything to the story. I guess a lot of authors use a iOS so for them it easy to think that Mac==computer or iPhone==smartphone, for readers no so much.

Except, if the story is SET in America (or England or even Brazil), you go with what's local, rather than importing something no one there has ever heard of). There are now several Chinese smartphone makers, who do very well in China, but although most American's have 'heard' of them, we're unlikely to know ANYONE who actually has one.

It's akin to specifying McDonalds (commonly used in America) vs. specifying IHOP in a story set in Australia (where no one has ever heard of the company before).

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Keet


You do realize that iPhone is only big in the US but worldwide has a market share under 20%?


Even in the US iPhone is no longer the big dog.

Current US market share for smartphones stands at Android 50%, iPhone 45% and Blackberry and Microsoft Windows phones fighting over the remaining 5%.

ETA: link https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Except, if the story is SET in America (or English or even Brazil), you go with what's local, rather than importing something no one there has ever heard of).


Yes, but the US market currently is roughly evenly split between Android and iPhone with Droids having a slight advantage.

If you have a story set in present day US and every phone is an iPhone with not a single Droid in sight, I would wonder if you were being paid for product placement.

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

You want to be specific, just so it sounds like someone's actual life,


One character drives a Chevy. The other a Mercedes. Tells the reader something about them.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

I know Chevrolet in the UK for its rebadged Daewoo cars - cheap, cheerful and good value for money.

Mercedes is a luxury German brand - good looking, hideously expensive (especially for parts and repair work), and yet below average reliability, according to records of how often they have to go to the garage for repair.

How close is that to the impression American readers would garner from those brand names?

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Crumbly Writer

@Capt. Zapp

In my stories, I do my best to stay away from any real product, business, or even location names.

While you can go overboard, avoiding specifics entirely is a mistake of a whole different kind. I've been working with one new author. He describes a budding romance, and the entire thing describes a 'nice' girl, who's 'cute' and 'pretty', but nothing describes why there's any attraction.

No one wants to read about an 'average guy' leading an 'average' life. While the 'average guy' is a powerful literary motif, it's only if the average guy is doing something extraordinary, contrasting the life we all live, with one we all wish we could live.

Although his writing is very good, his 'generic' descriptions are so nonspecific, he can't even remember what room in the house his characters are in from one moment to another, because there's nothing anchoring them. It's just another room, sitting on another chair, talking to yet another 'cute' cute.

You won't win many fans by playing it safe. If your characters aren't extraordinary, if the person they're chasing isn't beautiful and captivating, then why should readers care?

Readers want to feel a character's emotions, but all playing it safe buys you is a character that doesn't move readers at all.

While I'm not saying that's what you're doing, Capt. Zapp, that's the path you're suggesting that others follow. However, it sounds like dangerous advice to me. You can't overplay a weak hand, but it's foolish to continually play the exact same losing hand over and over.

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

Traditional wisdom is that when someone resorts to name-calling and bad language, they've already lost the argument.

It's a shame the name-callers are unaware of that.

AJ

Replies:   Zom
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Even in the US iPhone is no longer the big dog.

Current US market share for smartphones stands at Android 50%, iPhone 45% and Blackberry and Microsoft Windows phones fighting over the remaining 5%.

Yeah, that's been true for a while, but ... Apple is currently making somewhere around 80 to 90% of ALL the smartphone profits, and while Samsung users sing about all their new 'features', chances are, they'll all be gone by the next release, and the phone you're holding will no longer be supported.

The iPhone, meanwhile, isn't popular because it's expensive, but because it's proven it's dependability for year over year.

While you say authors are merely jumping on a popular bandwagon, showing a character using an iPhone demonstrates, indirectly, that they believe in quality, in doing something the right way, even if it won't produce the quickest buck, and that they're 'reliable'.

What does a character using a Samsung tell readers? That 1) he's cheap, and 2) that it's likely to explode in his pocket and fry his junk!

Specifics make a story feel more 'grounded' in reality, but it also carries certain assumptions that carry over to their characters. Does your detective drive a Ford, or a Maserati, does he date someone 'kinda cute', or someone 'soul-crushingly beautiful'.

If you, as an author, can't think of anything more imaginative than 'he pulled out his phone,' then why should readers trust your story to be very exciting?

The key isn't to avoid specific references, it's knowing when not to overplay it. You drop casual references, but not enough so it's obvious. You mention a specific phone here (the brand isn't that important), you mention his suit, or his date's dress, you mention the restaurant they're dining in, but most of all, you keep mixing it up. Once you've established he uses a sophisticated phone, you drop the references. The reader already knows, so they DON'T need to be reminded. And dumping a dozen brand names in a couple of sentences is a sheer sign that you, the author (I'm speaking generically here), can't afford ANY of those products.

Once again, the key isn't to avoid taking any risks, it's all about not overplaying your hand. You use the hand you're holding, get what you can for it, and then you get out and play a separate hand, rather than continually trying the same old trick, again and again.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Keet
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

If you have a story set in present day US and every phone is an iPhone with not a single Droid in sight, I would wonder if you were being paid for product placement.

Good point, but emphasized my point about messaging. If you're presenting an underdog story, contrast his using his last dollars to buy a 2nd or 3rd generation Droid while the villian constantly shows off the newest iToy—especially if he can't use it.

The key isn't to throw names around, it's to use them as writing tools to convey something about the character, not about the author. In that sense, it's best if you don't mention the product that you use, as then it sounds like a product endorsement. It's better to use something unexpected, that catches your readers off-guard, and casts your character in an entirely new light.

But most of all, you don't want to create boring, generic characters with nothing particular to offer. Even if they're an up-and-comer, show that they're making intelligent, rational choices, rather than senseless, meaningless gestures. But have the description convey something, even if it goes astray occasionally.

Capt. Zapp

@Crumbly Writer

Thus it's generally better to refer to an iPad than it is to a generic "tablet device", just as it helps a story to refer to specific businesses in a story set in a specific city.


I prefer to use generic or made up business names. After all, even if I like their products, they aren't going to pay me to advertise for them. This is also the reason I don't wear clothing that has company logos or branding. If they can pay some jock to say they wear their clothing, why give them free advertisement? Especially with the prices they demand for them! I did take a shirt with a brand I didn't like and put a 'barred circle' over their logo once.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

How close is that to the impression American readers would garner from those brand


I was thinking Chevy is inexpensive and Mercedes is luxury expensive. Status?

As an aside, I'm looking at the Audi A4 to replace my 2005 Acura TSX (it's old but only has 63,000 miles). Don't know if I'd buy it now or wait for the 2019 (supposably the car isn't changing).

The ratings are excellent.

Anyone have an opinion on the Audis? I also am not a Mercedes fan.

Capt. Zapp

@Dominions Son

Current US market share for smartphones stands at Android 50%, iPhone 45% and Blackberry and Microsoft Windows phones fighting over the remaining 5%.


I think this is occurring for a similar reason that the Betamax system isn't around anymore. Android systems are pretty generic and available from numerous manufacturers while the others are highly proprietary.

Now if I could just get rid of the 'bloatware' that verizon loads on their phones. There are so many 'preloaded' apps on my phone that I can't delete that there is not enough room to update the apps I do use!

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Crumbly Writer

@Capt. Zapp

I prefer to use generic or made up business names. After all, even if I like their products, they aren't going to pay me to advertise for them.

Using a completely fictitious brand works, and considerably better than using a generic phrase, but for newbies, it's more work. You've got to manually create all the associations, investing a considerable amount of time for what would otherwise be only a few short sentences. It's similar to 'showing'. Showing is more powerful, but if all you're saying is that someone is handsome, it's better to say that some woman considers him "gorgeous" than to detail his grooming habits for 700 words! The extra work just doesn't pay off in the short run.

Capt. Zapp

@Crumbly Writer

While you can go overboard, avoiding specifics entirely is a mistake of a whole different kind.


I didn't mean that I avoided specifics and just used generic terms. I meant that I use product names that I make up. After all, I'm not getting paid to advertise products for the real companies, and am pretty sure a company I make up won't be coming after me for trademark infringement. :)

Using just generic terms would be like saying vanilla is the only ice cream available.

(I hope my stories don't read like that!)

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

The iPhone, meanwhile, isn't popular because it's expensive


True, it's expensive and high profit because there is only one manufacturer.

Samsung isn't the only maker of droids, there is around a dozen different makes of droids. This is why the profit margins are lower.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Dominions Son

@Capt. Zapp

After all, I'm not getting paid to advertise products for the real companies, and am pretty sure a company I make up won't be coming after me for trademark infringement. :)


Neither would any honest real manufacturer, as using the product name in a story to refer to their product is not a trademark violation and requires no advance permission.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Zom

@awnlee jawking

Traditional wisdom is that when someone resorts to name-calling and bad language, they've already lost the argument

Pacifist twaddle. And it assumes that there was an argument to begin with, not a discussion :-)

Replies:   awnlee jawking
doctor_wing_nut

@Crumbly Writer

specifying IHOP in a story set in Australia (where no one has ever heard of the company before).


Wait, what ?? There are no IHOP's in Australia ? But it's The International House of Pancakes !

I can't believe they lied to us all those years.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@doctor_wing_nut

Wait, what ?? There are no IHOP's in Australia ? But it's The International House of Pancakes !

I can't believe they lied to us all those years.


To a US businessman to be International only requires you to open one store in either Mexico or Canada.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


@doctor_wing_nut


Wait, what ?? There are no IHOP's in Australia ? But it's The International House of Pancakes !

I can't believe they lied to us all those years.



To a US businessman to be International only requires you to open one store in either Mexico or Canada.


That's not quite it in this case. They have been the International House of Pancakes since they opened their very first location.

IHOP's thing is pancakes with an international (mostly European) flair.

So truth in advertising, it would be the House of International Pancakes rather than the International House of Pancakes.

Grant

@Switch Blayde

Anyone have an opinion on the Audis?

They do make very nice vehicles, and while their parts pricing isn't as bad as Mercedes or BMW, it's not a lot better.
Buying genuine parts will hurt.

Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

using the product name in a story to refer to their product is not a trademark violation


Unless it's used negatively.

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

I was thinking Chevy is inexpensive and Mercedes is luxury expensive. Status?


Sounds good to me. If you drive a Mercedes, especially a convertible model, you'll definitely attract attention.

Anyone have an opinion on the Audis?


In the UK, they're the upmarket sibling of Volkswagen, Seat and Skoda, although sharing most of their mechanicals.

Volkswagen haven't been having a good time of late, need cheat functions to pass emissions tests and raising injunctions to hide security defects, and the Volkswagen Golf is the next model down in reliability tables from the Ford Fiesta, so mechanically it's average.

I reckon it'll be good to drive, but allegedly Europeans like a harder ride than Americans so you might find the suspension a bit harsh. Take it for a long test drive before you buy.

@Grant has an excellent point. Don't buy 'genuine' Audi parts if you can help it. Chances are you'll be able to get an identical part with VW, Seat or Skoda ID much cheaper, without having to risk generic alternatives.

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
awnlee jawking

@Capt. Zapp

Using just generic terms would be like saying vanilla is the only ice cream available.


Heh, there's a world shortage of genuine vanilla, so vanilla ice cream is disappearing from the market.

AJ

Replies:   helmut_meukel
awnlee jawking

@Zom

Pacifist twaddle.


But I'm an Atlanticist ;)

AJ

Replies:   Zom
Michael Loucks

@Capt. Zapp

Now if I could just get rid of the 'bloatware' that verizon loads on their phones. There are so many 'preloaded' apps on my phone that I can't delete that there is not enough room to update the apps I do use!


One of the reasons Steve Jobs was insistent that only Apple could control the software on the phone and would do direct updates themselves. Granted, there were no apps at first, but that notion made it easier for iPhones to be updated and perform the way Apple intended.

That does not mean there are no issues, including the general inability to sideload, but the fact that AT&T can't cram software onto my phone is HUGE. I used Androids for years and experienced exactly what you report.

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

From being a part of the discussion, and defending Switch, it's primarily because he writes kiddie-porn, and thus he CAN'T legally post anyone BESIDES ASSTR. But the conversation quickly deescalated from there, with him essentially calling Switch a 'traitor' for NOT posting kiddie-porn, and to please leave all of the 'regulars' alone and no longer visit the site or volunteer any suggestions, because he 'wasn't welcomed'.

No matter WHAT they offer in terms of a new site, I will NOT be visiting it, under ANY circumstances!!!

And I totally agree!

Keet

@Crumbly Writer

Technically, readers prefer specifics to generalities, as it makes stories feel more 'lived in'. Thus it's generally better to refer to an iPad than it is to a generic "tablet device", just as it helps a story to refer to specific businesses in a story set in a specific city.

In some cases yes, like the remark of capt-zapp where a historical reference is needed but in the case of phones, no. Why? Just watch this thread which I suspect is just barely avoiding the old apple-android war. Just because most here are civilized people we can have a reasonable discussion about it. This leaks through in stories. That's why I stopped reading Conductor. In the case of phones/tablets I would have stopped reading if another brand was promoted because I want to read a story, not an advertisement or the ramblings of a fanboy and it adds exactly nothing to the story.
On the other hand... Apple fanboys would continue reading just because their ego is petted ;)

Keet

@Dominions Son

If you have a story set in present day US and every phone is an iPhone with not a single Droid in sight, I would wonder if you were being paid for product placement.

And that was what I was beginning to suspect, thus leading me to stop reading this "advertisement".

StarFleet Carl

@Switch Blayde

As an aside, I'm looking at the Audi A4 to replace my 2005 Acura TSX (it's old but only has 63,000 miles). Don't know if I'd buy it now or wait for the 2019 (supposably the car isn't changing).


Save some money and buy a Subaru. Same true AWD system, better collision avoidance system, less expensive.

Keet
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

Yeah, that's been true for a while, but ... Apple is currently making somewhere around 80 to 90% of ALL the smartphone profits, and while Samsung users sing about all their new 'features', chances are, they'll all be gone by the next release, and the phone you're holding will no longer be supported.

The iPhone, meanwhile, isn't popular because it's expensive, but because it's proven it's dependability for year over year.

While you say authors are merely jumping on a popular bandwagon, showing a character using an iPhone demonstrates, indirectly, that they believe in quality, in doing something the right way, even if it won't produce the quickest buck, and that they're 'reliable'.

What does a character using a Samsung tell readers? That 1) he's cheap, and 2) that it's likely to explode in his pocket and fry his junk!

Specifics make a story feel more 'grounded' in reality, but it also carries certain assumptions that carry over to their characters. Does your detective drive a Ford, or a Maserati, does he date someone 'kinda cute', or someone 'soul-crushingly beautiful'.

If you, as an author, can't think of anything more imaginative than 'he pulled out his phone,' then why should readers trust your story to be very exciting?

Up front: I don't use/own either an iPhone or an Android device, so I'm not playing favorites. I have my reasons for not using either one.

Whow, you are making an awful lot assumptions here.

Yes the iPhone is expensive but have you seen the prices of the latest android top models? Not much difference there. This also refutes your remark that an android phone user is by definition cheap. Both Apple and Android service totally different targets. One is the safe but completely walled garden, the other less safe but with freedom in what you want to do with it.

With car brands it's different. Yes indeed it says something about the character or the purpose of the car. In every post here where cars are mentioned I have read multiple brands names, not one singled out as "THE BRAND". If really necessary the use of a brand should reflect positive in a story, add to it, or make something clear. It should not be an advertisement.

I'm very careful here, I don't mean offense and I most certainly do not want to enter an Apple/Android discussion (As I stated before I don't use/own either, and no, I don't use Windows either).

But let me guess: all your devices are Apple?

Zom

@awnlee jawking


But I'm an Atlanticist ;)

OK. Atlanticist twaddle :-)

Keet
Updated:

For all authors using car brands to make a point: be care full with the location you place the brand. Others have already pointed out some points but here are some more to remember:

1. While a Mercedes is a luxury car in the US it's "just a car" in Germany. Same for the larger Audi's.

2. The same car can be sold under a different brand name in another country making the reader have no idea what you try to touch with that brand.

3. The same brand can have a totally different view in different countries. In the US Audi and BMW might be seen as luxury, high status or technically sound but where I live these brands are very often used by a-holes, criminals, dealers, road-ragers etc. The users of those are cars a looked upon totally different here then they would in the US.

4. Culture: In Europe we hardly see pickup trucks because there simply is no use for them and they are way to big to be practical for our road-systems and parking. If we do see a pickup, well, you can understand the type of person that would be. In the US you would probably be a business or a redneck (no offense to either one, I'm just guessing here).

5. The SUV is becoming more popular the last years but they usually are still a lot smaller then the US type SUV. So if you want to use a SUV for the space it provides be aware of the differences. In Europe an Escalade means little to nothing to a reader, most wouldn't even recognize it as a brand or model.

So take care in using/mentioning car brands if you want to relay a feeling or status to your readers.

Crumbly Writer

@StarFleet Carl

Save some money and buy a Subaru. Same true AWD system, better collision avoidance system, less expensive.

Not only that, but they're much more practical than the iPhone, especially when used in an IHOP!

helmut_meukel

@awnlee jawking

Heh, there's a world shortage of genuine vanilla, so vanilla ice cream is disappearing from the market.


Cheap vanilla ice cream is made with vanillin, same for most vanilla sugars. There will never be a shortage in vanillin.

HM.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@helmut_meukel

Cheap vanilla ice cream is made with vanillin, same for most vanilla sugars. There will never be a shortage in vanillin.


Aren't the manufacturers, in the EU at least, required to call that vanilla-flavour[ed] ice-cream rather than vanilla ice-cream?

AJ

Crumbly Writer

@Keet

So take care in using/mentioning car brands if you want to relay a feeling or status to your readers.

Car brands, as you suggest, are tricky. Smart phones, though, essentially fall into the proverbial PC/Mac category, where either group will attack a story largely because they don't use the phone that the reader identifies with.

As for European SUVs and Pickups, the roads are much too small for either, unless you don't like door panels, side mirrors or paint jobs. In the U.S., though, I'm continually amazed that two cars passing on a quiet suburban street will literally come to a dead stop if they don't have at least a 4 or 5 foot clearance to pass, and it's even worse if there's a bicycle or pedestrian, where they'll often leave a full 8 to 10 foot clearance. Obviously, American's have little depth perception, and can't determine how close they can come to something beside them. And even then, with that much clearance, we have a much higher incident of cars running bikes off the road than you have in Europe (though many of these seem to be more 'road rage' incidents than ineffective driving).

Replies:   Keet  Safe_Bet
Switch Blayde

@Dominions Son

If you have a story set in present day US and every phone is an iPhone with not a single Droid in sight, I would wonder if you were being paid for product placement.


Or it's the phone the author has and he is simply familiar with it so he automatically uses the phone in the story. Just like my characters always have a Coke.

Switch Blayde

@StarFleet Carl

Save some money and buy a Subaru.


My criteria is reliability and the ratings. The Audi A5 and A4 were at the top. I don't remember seeing a Subaru as being rated well.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Keet


In the US Audi and BMW might be seen as luxury, high status or technically sound but where I live these brands are very often used by a-holes, criminals, dealers, road-ragers etc.


There's a joke in the U.S.

What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?

The porcupine has the pricks on the outside.

richardshagrin

Subaru

Long ago I purchased a Subaru Justy, because it had a very low price for a new car. It had an unusual engine that barely lasted 50,000 miles, and would have cost more that the car's actual cash value when it expired to replace. The all wheel drive Subaru sedan was much nicer and lasted until my wife decided after test driving a lot of options including Cadillac and Mercedes that a VW Passat was the right car for her/us. It has lasted from 2002 to the present, although it only has a little over 61,000 miles on it. Uses more oil than I expected, however.

Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

Europeans like a harder ride than Americans so you might find the suspension a bit harsh.


I like a harder ride. I used to over-inflate my tires to get the harder ride until I was told doing so wore out the tires.

BlacKnight

@Switch Blayde

Or it's the phone the author has and he is simply familiar with it so he automatically uses the phone in the story. Just like my characters always have a Coke.

There are parts of the U.S. where any fizzy drink is a "coke".

And there are people for whom any smartphone or tablet is an iPhone or iPad. It's not a paid Apple ad; they've just been brainwashed into being good little Apple drones. We have always been at war with Android.

Dominions Son

@BlacKnight

We have always been at war with Android.


Yes, and you have always been/always will be loosing that war.

Michael Loucks
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Or it's the phone the author has and he is simply familiar with it so he automatically uses the phone in the story. Just like my characters always have a Coke.


In parts of the US, this is the generic term for a fizzy drink. :-)

ETA - posted before I saw the same notion by BlackKnight with the same term! :-)

Keet
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Car brands, as you suggest, are tricky. Smart phones, though, essentially fall into the proverbial PC/Mac category, where either group will attack a story largely because they don't use the phone that the reader identifies with.


Sorry but it is only the iPhone people that "identify" with a stupid thing like a phone. It's somewhat hilarious but actually it is very sad. Anyway I have never heard of someone attacking a story because of a phone. I didn't attack Conductor because of the endless iPhone worship, I simply abandoned an advertisement.

Replies:   Darian Wolfe
Darian Wolfe

@Keet

I used to work for a cell phone provider and we were told in training that iPhones were programed to die after I believe it was 200 charges. It didn't matter if they were full charges or not. Just the number of times they were plugged into the charger. That's what they told us and we sold both iPhones and Androids.

Replies:   REP  Michael Loucks
REP

@Darian Wolfe

It's called planned obsolescence. You have to buy a new battery or a new phone. The way a lot of devices are made, changing the battery can be difficult.

One of my wife's phones is like that. The engineers didn't make battery replacement simple. So if you aren't careful in disassembling the phone, you can damage the screen's circuitry, which means a new phone. The cost of the battery + shipping was more than half the cost of a replacement phone.

Michael Loucks
Updated:

@Darian Wolfe


I used to work for a cell phone provider and we were told in training that iPhones were programed to die after I believe it was 200 charges. It didn't matter if they were full charges or not. Just the number of times they were plugged into the charger. That's what they told us and we sold both iPhones and Androids.


I call BS after owning (or purchasing on behalf of my kids) quite a few iPhones over the years. My daughter's 3GS was still working and getting updates after Google abandoned my G1 and Nexus 1 phones less than a year after production, despite promises of updates.

That's when I gave up and switched to iPhones. Other than one dropped 30 stories down a stairwell, never had one die because the battery refused to charge after X plug-ins. And especially true of the older ones which could only be backed-up or transfer photos via cable.

My current phone (7S) has been plugged/unplugged ~500 times since I bought it. Battery is still very healthy. Plan to keep it at least another couple of years.

I've also supported 100s of iPhones in business and never seen this kind of behavior, either.

Replies:   Darian Wolfe
Not_a_ID

@Dominions Son

Samsung isn't the only maker of droids, there is around a dozen different makes of droids. This is why the profit margins are lower.


And the Samsung phones do tend to have "staying power" to rival the Apple iPhones. But as mentioned, every year, you get a small handful of options from Apple for smartphohes.

Meanwhile the Android marketplace will literally churn through dozens of different competing models ranging from higher quality(like Samsung) to cheap versions that can barely handle running what comes loaded on the phone.

The homogenous nature of the Apple iPhone market is what makes it appear so dominant in most stores, and several other "accessory" markets. There simply is a greater chance of encountering an iPhone user looking to buy than it is that a Samsung Note user will turn up.

Darian Wolfe
Updated:

@Michael Loucks

Hi Michael,

I call un-bullshit. I worked at a Sprint call center. This would have been about six years ago. I was taking a break from security at the time.

This was taught to us by our instructors as part of our training as general phone techs. We were not allowed to give the information to the public. It was information to help us "guide" our customers into buying the insurance or upgrading.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

Let's move the phone discussion into a thread of its own, please. I'll go start it.

http://storiesonline.net/d/s2/t3927/phones-in-stories-and?a=a82#po74948

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
StarFleet Carl

@Switch Blayde

My criteria is reliability and the ratings. The Audi A5 and A4 were at the top. I don't remember seeing a Subaru as being rated well.


Not knocking the Audi, it's just that a new A4 on the low end is about $32,000 ($36,000 MSRP), on the high end is about $40,000, and a Performance Plus will top $50,000.

Subaru Legacy 3.6R, which is an IIHS Top Safety Pick +, fully loaded with everything, and is the top of the line, is the same price as the low end A4. You can get it with a smaller engine or less equipment as spend less.

The A4 is considered a midsized luxury car, the Legacy is a midsized car.

Here's the IIHS ratings on the A4 and the Legacy:
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/audi/a4-4-door-sedan/2018
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/subaru/legacy-4-door-sedan/2018

StarFleet Carl

@BlacKnight

There are parts of the U.S. where any fizzy drink is a "coke".


And those parts are VERY wrong. Just like there are parts of this country that commit the heinous sin of serving unsweet tea.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@StarFleet Carl

Just like there are parts of this country that commit the heinous sin of serving unsweet tea.


What about the parts of the country that seem to think sweet tea should be 3 parts sugar and 1 part tea?

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@Dominions Son

What about the parts of the country that seem to think sweet tea should be 3 parts sugar and 1 part tea?


If there's sugar crystals on the bottom after it's been brewed and the sugar put in, then you've used too much. It should never precipitate out. And of course, if you're simply putting sugar into a glass of cold tea, you're doing it wrong in the first place... :)

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@StarFleet Carl

If there's sugar crystals on the bottom after it's been brewed and the sugar put in, then you've used too much.


I haven't encountered it myself, but I've heard other people talk about sweet tea that was like drinking corn syrup.

Michael Loucks

@Darian Wolfe

Hi Michael,

I call un-bullshit. I worked at a Sprint call center. This would have been about six years ago. I was taking a break from security at the time.

This was taught to us by our instructors as part of our training as general phone techs. We were not allowed to give the information to the public. It was information to help us "guide" our customers into buying the insurance or upgrading.


They were lying to you. Plain and simple. At least in the past, the carriers made WAY more money on non-Apple phones because of incentives, discounts, etc. If 200 plug-ins killed a phone, most wouldn't even last a year. Empirical evidence says they lied to you.

Replies:   Darian Wolfe
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

@Ernest Bywater

Let's move the phone discussion into a thread of its own, please. I'll go start it.

@Starfleet Carl

Not knocking the Audi, it's just that a new A4 on the low end is about $32,000 ($36,000 MSRP), on the high end is about $40,000, and a Performance Plus will top $50,000.

Terrific, move the smartphone discussion to a different thread so the rest of us can talk about car porn!

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

Terrific, move the smartphone discussion to a different thread so the rest of us can talk about car porn!


Ja, and it can move to the autobahn.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Ernest Bywater

the autobahn

Are we going to ban auto discussions?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

Are we going to ban auto discussions?


only if they're bahn humbug ones.

Darian Wolfe

@Michael Loucks

Hi Michael,

I can buy that. As I said, all I knew on the issue is what they said. When I combined that with how much the apps for the iphone were at the time. I decided to never own one and never have.

About all I ever do on my smartphone is read and talk to a few people anyway. I don't use most of its functions. I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

Harold Wilson

@Crumbly Writer

Technically, readers prefer specifics to generalities, as it makes stories feel more 'lived in'.


This isn't true for technology. There are a bunch of stories on this site where the MC goes into breathless detail about how powerful his computer is, with its 8 or 16 gb of RAM and top of the line 1TB hard drive...

So, yeah. For technology you're much better off staying a little vague. "Top of the line" smart phone or "clunker" computer probably says all that needs saying.

(And keep your eyes open for articles about self-driving cars. The economics of that are not 'upgrade' but "transportation-as-a-service" for most users.)

Safe_Bet

@Crumbly Writer

Obviously, American's have little depth perception,


I blame SOL for this.

It come from all of the guys with average sized dicks reading how "average" is 8+ inches. Plays hell with their depth perception (I'm told... LOL)

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