Forum: Author Hangout

Also, use the actual ellipsis character, not three periods.

I work in Word. According to Lazeez, Word's ellipse character should not be used. It is not recognized by SOL's text conversion program. I learned of this when a few of my stories that used the Word character created problems in the posted text.

I work in Word. According to Lazeez, Word's ellipse character should not be used. It is not recognized by SOL's text conversion program. I learned of this when a few of my stories that used the Word character created problems in the posted text.

There was a problem, a few years back, when the SOL converter couldn't handle the html ellipsis character, but that was fixed a long time ago. Try it again, I suspect it'll work now (though with WORD, there's no telling what it's trying to pull!)

Most word processing programs will automatically convert three full stops in succession into an ellipsis, when you are typing the document.

They don't do it automatically. Instead, you've got to change the AutoCorrect Options (under "Proofing" in "Word Options"). There's a "Replace text as you type" feature, so it'll insert a copyright character if you type "(c)" or and ellipsis when you type three dots.

As for font selection, most ereaders are much more forgiving than they were years ago, and there are very few uniform width characters in use anymore. That means that virtually all the fonts available (with the exception of the ones you embed in the document yourself) will support publishing characters. Even then, it's easy to check out if you know how.

I'm always using custom fonts in my chapter titles, but I've done it so frequently, I know how to access most of the special features (tails, accent marks, curly-ques, etc.) that are a part of the original font designs.

If you're ever curious, ask and I'll talk your ear off! 'D

You might want to investigate which fonts are commonly supported by your target audience's equipment, unless you have a way of including the font definitions with the document. PDF/A allows you to do this.

Epubs do this too, and it's getting more and more common to include custom embedded fonts. The main sticking point, though, is the liscensing, as most font designers charge you exorbinate rates for embedded fonts (as it's commonly used to add fonts into game consoles, so they charge you as if you're producing a million-game series).

Instead, what most authors do—and what I do—is to purchase a single-use Professional license (which is only valid for your first 50,000 sales), and then use the font to create graphic chapter heads. Easy-peasie, no font-embedding necessary.

How do you create the ellipse character in Word?

Under "tools/autocorrect" there's a table that converts three dots to an ellipsis, two hyphens to an em-dash, etc. You can add or delete to this table.

Or you can simply enter the ellipsis into Word and it won't have to convert anything. On a Mac, it's "hold down the 'option' and press the semicolon. I assume on a PC the "option" is the "control."

Also, use the actual ellipsis character, not three periods.

For SOL, I use 3 dots. I even have to undo Word's automatic conversion to the font's character each time I enter it. Laz says the Wizard converts the ellipsis character to 3 dots. So since it ends up that way anyway, why risk an error?

For SOL, I use 3 dots. I even have to undo Word's automatic conversion to the font's character each time I enter it. Laz says the Wizard converts the ellipsis character to 3 dots. So since it ends up that way anyway, why risk an error?

By the same logic, why go to all the extra of inserting the three spaces, when that's already handled for you? It's easier to keep your SOL, web postings and publication documents using the same coding so you don't get confused about what goes where.

By the same logic, why go to all the extra of inserting the three spaces, when that's already handled for you? It's easier to keep your SOL, web postings and publication documents using the same coding so you don't get confused about what goes where.

What three spaces? Between the dots? I don't do that. For SOL, I use three dots (no spaces between them). For ebooks, I use the ellipsis that comes with the font. I don't have the same stories in both so I don't need consistent formatting.

For SOL, I do a "save as" as txt and attach that file to the Wizard. Since txt loses special formatting, I can't use the ellipsis or em-dash. I use three dots and --, respectively.

For ebooks, I use the ellipsis and em-dash in Word. Calibre converts the docx file correctly.

What three spaces? Between the dots? I don't do that.

Sorry, I meant "three characters", rather than "three spaces". My bad!

For SOL, I do a "save as" as txt and attach that file to the Wizard. Since txt loses special formatting, I can't use the ellipsis or em-dash. I use three dots and --, respectively.

In my case, I submit to SOL using html, so I use the exact same text as I use in my books. Thus consistency across the various versions of the story is important (and easier to maintain).

From the top, your third example is the one I like... best.

See what I did there!

Don't laugh, I end up doing the same thing often when someone leaves and hanging sentence in the middle of a word. You can't include the extra space, since the words isn't fully uttered.

Example: "I'm in the process of cranking up the thrus... Where's bunny?"

Still, since I use the actual ellipsis character (those who include spaces use all text), that covers it anyway).

By the way, hanging sentences always have a starting but no ending space, though don't ask me the logic behind that decision.

I agree, I treat it just like a comma (3 dot ellipsis) or period (4 dot version). No space before but a space after. For the same reason I'd use a three dot version with no trailing space (replacing a comma) at the end of a quoted section.

I agree, I treat it just like a comma (3 dot ellipsis) or period (4 dot version). No space before but a space after.

The ellipsis trumps the final stop (i.e. only three dots, not four). It's the same way you don't add a full stop after an exclamation or punctuation mark. If the sentence already ends in the proper punctuation, there's no point piling on MORE punctuation!

I hate having an ellipsis in a sentence, with the exception of indicating an unfinished dialogue due to an interruption.

Interrupted speech is an em-dash.
The ellipsis is for trailing off voice.

Interrupted speech is an em-dash.
The ellipsis is for trailing off voice.

depends on the style manual you use, it's an optional choice.

Interrupted speech is an em-dash.
The ellipsis is for trailing off voice.

depends on the style manual you use, it's an optional choice.

Not really. Certain style manuals ONLY address non-fiction uses, so they don't specify how to address interrupted speech in fiction. That's an omission, rather than a 'different choice'.

By the way, as you can tell, I've spent a LOT of time over the years researching this crap! 'D

"Let me think," he lifts his glass and has a drink before saying, "the answer is 8 hours."

You can't write it that way. "He" starts a new sentence and needs to be capitalized with a period before it. But since the period doesn't work because it's a pause, the period is replaced with an ellipsis.

I'd write it as:

"Let me think..." He lifts his glass and has a drink. "The answer is 8 hours."

"He" starts a new sentenc

it doesn't have to be a new sentence, it's authors choice as to having it as one sentence or not. It's just the same as listing different actions.

it doesn't have to be a new sentence, it's authors choice as to having it as one sentence or not. It's just the same as listing different actions.

If you take that tact, then you'd need to add a comma and an "and".

"Let me think...," he says, and lifts his glass and has a drink."

If you take that tact, then you'd need to add a comma and an "and".

I think you meant to use the word 'tack' not 'tact' in that sentence.

I think you meant to use the word 'tack' not 'tact' in that sentence.

Stick a tack in my thumb for every typing such a tactless thing!

"Let me think," he lifts his glass and has a drink before saying, "the answer is 8 hours."

You can't write it that way. "He" starts a new sentence and needs to be capitalized with a period before it. But since the period doesn't work because it's a pause, the period is replaced with an ellipsis.

"He lifts his glass", in this instance, is an "action attribution", and does indeed go on a separate sentence (it also provides a handy pause in the action a normal attribution doesn't convey, as well as interrupting multi-paragraph dialogue speech by a single speaker. The idea is, the action is separate from the speech, and the one action (the comment) is followed by another action (the lifting of the glass), which takes more time.

I hate having an ellipsis in a sentence, with the exception of indicating an unfinished dialogue due to an interruption.

You don't use an ellipsis for interruptions, you use an em-dash (it's a usage restricted to fiction, so it's not as well known as the other ellipsis and em-dash guidelines).

After all, you don't want your readers inserting a pause, when they should actually insert a mid-sentence interruption. If readers are accustomed to it (and more and more are, even if they don't think of it's being a rule), they'll process the difference between the two without thinking about it. (Though, of course, several here will object to that assertion. ;D)

Oh, yeah, and I'll sometimes use ellipses to indicate omitted speech, and in that case I put spaces on both sides.

e.g.:
"Let me ... answer is ... hours," the radio crackled.

I keyed the mic. "Please repeat. You're breaking up."

That's not viewed as 'omitted text' (such as they'd use if you drop certain words from someone's public comments in a newspaper). Instead, it's a pause (caused by interruptions in the broadcast). Thus they're handled just like any other longer pause.

It's always important to separate out the different rules for non-fiction uses of ellipses and em-dashes from the fictional uses.

No, it's not a pause. The speaker is speaking, not pausing; the listener (and through them the reader) just isn't able to hear them, so what they're saying is omitted. There's a significant difference in the implications of these two sentences:

I'm not going to argue, but this has been discussed endlessly in multiple writing groups. In fiction, the ellipsis is NOT used to denote omitted text. Whatever a character says in a story is what the character says. If you edited out something he said earlier, then whatever the character reads is what he says.

Likewise, non-fiction writers never use ellipses to denote pauses. If they did, no one could differentiate between a simple pause and edited comments by the speaker.

There are clear distinctions between the use of 'publication marks' for fiction and non-fiction.

By the way, that was edification (explaining the difference intended by authors), and not arguing the point.

I'm not going to argue, but this has been discussed endlessly in multiple writing groups. In fiction, the ellipsis is NOT used to denote omitted text. Whatever a character says in a story is what the character says.

Except this character is speaking through a transmitter that is breaking up. So the character listening (as is the reader) doesn't hear the words spoken that were lost in the transmission. I think the ellipsis is a good way to represent that. It is a pause because the character hears crackling or something between words. It is omitted words (not like omitted words when quoting someone in an academic paper), but omitted nonetheless because they aren't heard.

Except this character is speaking through a transmitter that is breaking up. So the character listening (as is the reader) doesn't hear the words spoken that were lost in the transmission. I think the ellipsis is a good way to represent that. It is a pause because the character hears crackling or something between words. It is omitted words (not like omitted words when quoting someone in an academic paper), but omitted nonetheless because they aren't heard.

Exactly. And it's also a technique (intermittent transmissions) that I've used in a story or two in my time). It works well, especially in driving up the tension before you reveal a new piece of information.

My only objection was over whether it is technically a text omission or a pause is the communications. That distinction was the one I didn't think was worth arguing over, as it won't affect his story in the slightest.

I'm not going to argue, but this has been discussed endlessly in multiple writing groups. In fiction, the ellipsis is NOT used to denote omitted text. Whatever a character says in a story is what the character says. If you edited out something he said earlier, then whatever the character reads is what he says.

I'll take a different side of this. At least for me the goal of writing is to communicate. If I succeed at that - if the reader understands my intent - then it's fine. The 'rules' of writing are there to help achieve that goal by giving us a shared context but they're only useful to the degree that they aid in the goal of communicating.

As for whether there are three or four dots for an ellipsis that ends a sentence, that's a style guide thing. When I was learning I was taught to use the fourth point to stand in for the period at the end of the sentence, which is why it's eliminated when using the ellipsis at the end of a sentence that ends a quotation. Again, a style guide thing. Either way is fine. In fact any of the ones that I've seen here are fine as long as the readers have enough shared context to understand what the author intended.

As for whether there are three or four dots for an ellipsis that ends a sentence, that's a style guide thing. When I was learning I was taught to use the fourth point to stand in for the period at the end of the sentence, which is why it's eliminated when using the ellipsis at the end of a sentence that ends a quotation. Again, a style guide thing. Either way is fine. In fact any of the ones that I've seen here are fine as long as the readers have enough shared context to understand what the author intended.

The forth dot in an end-of-sentence ellipsis is a very recent addition. Before a couple years back, everyone insisted you add the final punctuation mark. I'm not sure what happened, but between my initial research into the subject, and my subsequent research when asked about it here, the guidelines had largely changed across the board, with most sources saying "don't include the final concluding punctuation mark". Before, you'd include any punctuation after an ellipsis, even commas or semicolons.

That's why guidelines are dangerous, because they shift like quicksand under your feet before you can reach the safety of the far side. You do all the research, decide what's the best approach, and bingo-bango, everyone changes the standards between one book and it's sequel!

I don't mind change, as it shows an ability to absorb new ideas and adapt to changing times. But when the changes occur too fast to process, that's when the frustrations arise. And for the French, hundreds of years is much too fast! 'D

As for whether there are three or four dots for an ellipsis that ends a sentence, that's a style guide thing.

Not according to Grammar Girl:

If you're omitting something that comes after a complete sentence, meaning that your ellipsis has to follow a period, put the period at the end of the sentence just like you normally would, then type a space, and then type or insert your ellipsis. Again, you're treating the ellipsis as if it were a word: the first word of the next sentence. This will result in four dots in a row with spaces between each dot, but this is not a four-dot ellipsis—there's no such thing. It is a period followed by a regular three-dot ellipsis.

The reason she says it's "four dots in a row with spaces between each dot" is because she saying most style guides have a space on both sides and a space between each dot. So it looks like

xxx. . . .

But the first dot is the period at the end of the xxx sentence.

IMHO, one of the few time Grammar Girl gets it quite wrong.

Actually, she's not. She talked about the "spaces or not" previous to the part I quoted and said it's a style issue. She said most style guides (not all) have spaces between the dots, but (I think) not full spaces.

The part I quoted had to do with a 4-dot ellipsis. She is correct in saying there is no such thing and gave examples of what looks like a 4-dot ellipsis is really a period and ellipsis combination.

and you are not using double spaces between sentences

No one does that anymore.

No one does that anymore.

Oh yeah? We'll see what the Supreme Court has to say about that! 'D

No one does that anymore.

You should tell them that. I am proofing same all the time.

It's a terribly habit that certain people got into (including many teachers) during the awkward transition between manual typewriters and digital media. Anyone who still insists on using it is clinging desperately to a bygone era which will never return (baring the usual post-apocalyptic world).

baring the usual post-apocalyptic world

Crossover alert: Naked in the Post-Apocalypse ;)

AJ

Crossover alert: Naked in the Post-Apocalypse ;)

Isn't everyone naked during an apocalypse. When the rule of government dissolves, so do the clothes!

Zombie apocalypse movies are more entertaining when everyone (survivors and zombies alike) are all nekkid.

I always try to put double spaces between sentences, cause my typing teacher insisted on it.

They talk about what you learned in high school typing in the article: "Why you should never add two spaces after a period." http://www.businessinsider.com/why-you-should-never-add-two-spaces-after-a-period-2015-5

It talks about the larger space character that used to be used by typesetters (not really the same as 2 spaces on a typewriter). They also give the reasons why you should only use one space now, from not having monospaced fonts to HTML ignoring more than one. And...

The Chicago Manual of Style, the US Government Printing Office Style Manual, The Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, and the AP Stylebook are just a few of the style guides that recommend one space after a period.

That did not display properly when posted. I posted an ellipsis character and then 3 periods.

If you check it manually (holding shift and moving the arrow keys), you'll see that it DID come out correctly. The first ellipsis is only a single character, while the second is three characters.

Ya done good, son!

I did a bit of research. Word uses 0x85 as the ellipsis character. Chrome, Firefox and Windows Notepad all display 0x85 as a single character. I only checked in Windows 10. (In fixed pitch fonts the dots are rather crowded.)

Rather than entering hexidecimal values, you can simply enter the html command (which is what WORD does anyway, which is why most browsers handle it correctly). The html command is "…" (assuming it comes out correctly here).

Only if you are using a new enough version of word to support the DOCX format (which is compressed HTML and plain text).

If you submit to SOL using html, (and export from WORD as html) WORD does it anyway, as it converts all of it's standard formatting into official html coding standards. However, if you post as text and don't go through the conversion process, you're right.

Ernest, I've been using ellipses and em-dashes for years in epubs, and I've never had a problem with their displaying incorrectly. I'm guessing that you had an unrelated problem, probably with an early edition of the epub standard—before they worked all the bugs out.

Also, although the SOL Posting Wizard converts ellipses to three dots, oddly, that's not what happens here in the forum, where the html code produces genuine single-character ellipses. I've never quite figured out why Lazeez implemented such a schizophrenic approach, but I'm not gonna complain, cause I'll use them where ever I can! 'D

The forum uses a different database to the SoL story system, and it also uses very different code, which explains that difference.

The problems I saw were when I first started using epubs and they also appeared in some of the MOBI files too, but I switched to using three dots so it hasn't been an issue since.

The problems I saw were when I first started using epubs and they also appeared in some of the MOBI files too, but I switched to using three dots so it hasn't been an issue since.

That explains where the problem originates, but Amazon updated the MOBI standard some years ago, and it's now html compliant (though it displays the text differently, in a few instances). As I said, you're avoiding it based on a one or two time difficulty from years ago. Time to adapt, grandpa! 'D