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Hyphenation and Capital Case

Crumbly Writer

Okay, I'm creating a chapter title, so it needs to be in Capital Case (first letter of each word is capitalized), so what do I do with hyphenated words? Do I not capitalize the second-hyphenated word (if that makes sense), or do I hyphenate everything?

Just so you can get a grasp of what I'm discussing, the chapter title is:

Chapter 01: Home-port Issues

So what does everyone think? Full capitalization or non-capitalization of the second-hyphenated word

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

Chapter 01: Home-port Issues


I think I remember that the "P" is capitalized. But I don't have a source.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I think I remember that the "P" is capitalized. But I don't have a source.

I seem to remember M$ WORD having a "Title Case" selection, but I can't find it (it's not listed under their "Change Case ..." option). Maybe I saw that selection somewhere else instead, but guessing which program I saw it in is anyone's guess. It may even have been in one of my many Mac programs.

AmigaClone

@Crumbly Writer

Have you tried looking into paragraph settings (or whatever M$ WORD might call it?

awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

Does this help?

https://word.tips.net/T000249_Changing_Text_Case.html

AJ

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

This is from the APA Style Guide (American Psychological Association). http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2012/03/title-case-and-sentence-case-capitalization-in-apa-style.html

Capitalize all "major" words (nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, and pronouns) in the title/heading, including the second part of hyphenated major words (e.g., Self-Report not Self-report)

Switch Blayde

@Crumbly Writer

I also found this:

The Microsoft Manual of Style for Technical Publications makes capitalizing hyphenated words a bit more complex. According to Microsoft, you should capitalize the second word of a compound word in a title only if "it is a noun or proper adjective, it is an 'e-word,' or the words have equal weight."Aug 5, 2010

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

Okay, this person references 3 style guides: http://www.businesswritingblog.com/business_writing/2010/08/capitalizing-hyphenated-words-in-titles-.html


Capitalizing Hyphenated Words in Titles

In a recent business writing class, a careful editor questioned me about capitalizing "up" in "Writing Tune-Up for Peak Performance." In a hyphenated compound word, shouldn't a little word like up be lower case?

As usual, the answer is that it depends on whose style you follow.

I like the style promoted by The Gregg Reference Manual because it is simple and straightforward. Regarding hyphenated words, Gregg says, "In a heading or title, capitalize all the elements except articles, short prepositions, and short conjunctions." In Gregg, short means fewer than four letters.

Following the Gregg way, both parts of Tune-Up are capitalized because "up" is an adverb in that expression. The same is true of Follow-Up, Runner-Up, Shoo-In, Run-In, Trade-In, Set-To, Turn-On, and Take-Off. All those little ups, ins, tos, ons, and offs are adverbs, and Gregg capitalizes adverbs in titles.

The Microsoft Manual of Style for Technical Publications makes capitalizing hyphenated words a bit more complex. According to Microsoft, you should capitalize the second word of a compound word in a title only if "it is a noun or proper adjective, it is an 'e-word,' or the words have equal weight." Microsoft gives these examples: E-Commerce, Cross-Reference (words of equal weight), Run-Time, Add-in, How-to, Take-off. (Gregg would render those last three as Add-In, How-To, and Take-Off.)

The Chicago Manual of Style takes a more complex approach to capitalizing hyphenated words. It agrees with Gregg that adverbs should be capitalized. Yet it recommends Run-in and Take-off because in and off are short and unstressed. It suggests Hand-me-downs for the same reason. Beyond that, Chicago does not capitalize the second part of a spelled-out hyphenated number (Twenty-first and Two-thirds). I like its approach in a final rule: "Break a rule when it doesn't work." Well done, Chicago.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I also found this:

While it's not definitive for fiction uses, the M$ and APA Style guides are pretty convincing.

Does anyone have a wall of books somewhere they could examine to see how publishers typically handle this (though I doubt it occurs very often).

Ross at Play

FWIW, the relevant recommendations in CMOS at 8.159 are:
* Capitalize any subsequent elements unless they are articles, prepositions, coordinating conjunctions (and, but, for, or, nor), or such modifiers as flat or sharp following musical key symbols.
* If the first element is merely a prefix or combining form that could not stand by itself as a word (anti, pre, etc.), do not capitalize the second element unless it is a proper noun or proper adjective.

For your example, they recommend 'Home-Port Issues', but would also say 'Home-in-Port Issues'

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Zom

Interesting how a hyphenated 'word' is no longer a word when it comes to titles. Are there other instances where a letter in the middle of a word is capitalized because it is in a title?

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Zom

Interesting how a hyphenated 'word' is no longer a word when it comes to titles. Are there other instances where a letter in the middle of a word is capitalized because it is in a title?

That is certainly not my practice.

My general principles for capitalising titles are:
* The first and last words are always capitalised
* Lowercase for interior articles, conjunctions, and prepositions
* All words of hyphenated expressions are capitalised, i.e. treat them as separate words when each part could exist as a word
* Only an initial capital for hyphenated words, i.e. treat them as a single word when parts which cannot exist as a word are connected to a word by a hyphen

Note that various guides suggest different maximum lengths for putting mere connecting words in lowercase.
I treat proper nouns, proper adjectives, and lengthy hyphenated expressions within titles as embedded titles requiring their own capitalisation. So, a preposition appearing as the last word of a multi-word proper noun is capitalised - even if it is within a longer title and would usually be in lowercase.

Replies:   Zom
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

[Quoting someone else] The Chicago Manual of Style takes a more complex approach to capitalizing hyphenated words. It agrees with Gregg that adverbs should be capitalized. Yet it recommends Run-in and Take-off because in and off are short and unstressed. It suggests Hand-me-downs for the same reason. Beyond that, Chicago does not capitalize the second part of a spelled-out hyphenated number (Twenty-first and Two-thirds). I like its approach in a final rule: "Break a rule when it doesn't work." Well done, Chicago.

I cannot find anything in CMOS to support what the statements you quoted claim is recommended by CMOS.
Based on what it says at 8.159, within any title I would capitalise all of these: Run-In, Take-Off, Hand-Me-Downs, Twenty-First, and Two-Thirds.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

FWIW, the relevant recommendations in CMOS at 8.159 are:

Thanks, Ross. Although you well know that I'm not a fan of CMOS, it confirms that the Capital Case guidelines extends both to Fiction and most works published by the mainstream publishing houses (since many of them adhere to CMOS).

That's good enough for me.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I cannot find anything in CMOS to support what the statements you quoted claim is recommended by CMOS.

Does that mean that your version of CMOS doesn't have a section 8.159, or simply that you can't find it from a casual search on the internet?

It stands to reason, though. If you capitalize all words with the exception of those few, then you WOULD capitalize both ends of a hyphenated word too.

Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

Does that mean that your version of CMOS doesn't have a section 8.159

The "relevant recommendations in CMOS at 8.159" I used earlier was a direct quote from it.

I have an electronic copy of it, but it has lost some formats such as italics. Before quoting it here I must usually spend some time editing a section to get it into a condition that is readable on these forums. I contemplated doing that - for you - with section 8.159, but it seemed like too much effort. I trust you'll understand.

This is a complete, unedited copy of what I have:

8.159 Hyphenated compounds in headline-style titles
The following rules apply to hyphenated terms appearing in a title capitalized in headline style. For reasons of consistency and editorial efficiency, Chicago no longer advises making exceptions to these rules for the rare awkward-looking result (though such niceties may occasionally be observed in display settings, as on the cover of a book). For rules of hyphenation, see 7.77–85.
1. Always capitalize the first element.
2. Capitalize any subsequent elements unless they are articles, prepositions, coordinating conjunctions (and, but, for, or, nor), or such modifiers as flat or sharp following musical key symbols.
3. If the first element is merely a prefix or combining form that could not stand by itself as a word (anti,pre, etc.), do not capitalize the second element unless it is a proper noun or proper adjective.
4. Capitalize the second element in a hyphenated spelled-out number (twenty-one or twenty-first, etc.) or hyphenated simple fraction (two-thirds in two-thirds majority). This departure from previous Chicago recommendations recognizes the functional equality of the numbers before and after the hyphen.
The examples that follow demonstrate the numbered rules (all the examples demonstrate the first rule; the numbers in parentheses refer to rules 2–4).
Under-the-Counter Transactions and Out-of-Fashion Initiatives (2)
Bed-and-Breakfast Options in Upstate New York (2)
Record-Breaking Borrowings from Medium-Sized Libraries (2)
Cross-Stitching for Beginners (2)
A History of the Chicago Lying-In Hospital (2; "In" functions as an adverb, not a preposition)
The E-flat Concerto (2)
Self-Sustaining Reactions (2)
Anti-intellectual Pursuits (3)
Does E-mail Alter Thinking Patterns? (3)
A Two-Thirds Majority of Non-English-Speaking Representatives (3, 4)
Ninety-Fifth Avenue Blues (4)
Atari's Twenty-First-Century Adherents (4)
Under another, simplified practice that is not recommended by Chicago, only the first element and any subsequent element that is a proper noun or adjective are capitalized.

Ernest Bywater

I've not bothered reading the guides etc. or the post. What i was taught is that when you take two words and hyphenated them to make a compound word it's now a single word, thus only the first letter of the compound word is capitalised when you need to capitalise the word. Thus the example in your original post is correct as Home-port.

Replies:   Ross at Play  REP
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

It stands to reason, though. If you capitalize all words with the exception of those few, then you WOULD capitalize both ends of a hyphenated word too.

I think I was figuring out the reason as you were typing that. :)
I think hyphenated expression and proper nouns are capitalised as titles, even when they appear within another title.
It certainly seems like a principle we could apply to easily enough to achieve consistency, irrespective of what any of the guides might actually say.

Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

What i was taught is that when you take two words and hyphenated them to make a compound word it's now a single word, thus only the first letter of the compound word is capitalised when you need to capitalise the word. Thus the example in your original post is correct as Home-port.

I'm not saying your approach is invalid but ...
I treat expressions hyphenated only to provide clarity (in particular, compound adjectives appearing before a noun) as individual words.
I agree with you when a prefix, etc., which cannot exist as a word on its own, is connected to something else. I treat those as a single word.

Zom

@Ross at Play

hyphenated expressions … hyphenated words

Do you know of a definitive description of the difference?

Replies:   Ross at Play
Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

I cannot find anything in CMOS to support what the statements you quoted claim is recommended by CMOS.


Maybe the answer is in what you quoted:

4. Capitalize the second element in a hyphenated spelled-out number (twenty-one or twenty-first, etc.) or hyphenated simple fraction (two-thirds in two-thirds majority). This departure from previous Chicago recommendations recognizes


Specifically, "This departure from previous Chicago recommendations"

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Zom

Do you know of a definitive description of the difference?

Only this from CMOS 8.158 (quoted in full above)

merely a prefix or combining form that could not stand by itself as a word

My personal conclusion from this thread is that a simple approach is practical for all entities that require 'headline case', most commonly multi-word titles and proper nouns or adjectives.
1. capitals for all "words" except small, interior connecting words (various options exist for that)
2. treat word fragments attached to something else with a hyphen as forming a single word
3. treat any interior expressions that require multiple words to show a single concept (e.g. titles, proper nouns, and hyphenated expressions) as requiring their own headline case - meaning their first and last words always have capitals

I consider this a grey area of punctuation. I will not automatically follow any style guide, instead I specify these kinds of criteria in the style guides I create for each new story. They are usually close to what CMOS suggests, but mostly I'm just looking for an approach I can understand well enough to be consistent whenever I need to make such choices.

Replies:   Zom
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

@ Me
I cannot find anything in CMOS to support what the statements you quoted claim is recommended by CMOS.

@ You
Maybe the answer is in what you quoted ... "This departure from previous Chicago recommendations"

I noticed that. The change in practice mentioned by CMOS applies only to numbers. I think the piece you quoted misrepresents what CMOS says in other ways as well. Specifically:

it recommends Run-in and Take-off because in and off are short and unstressed. It suggests Hand-me-downs for the same reason.

My interpretation of 8.159 is it recommends Run-In, Take-Off, and Hand-Me-Downs, but in contrast, Man-the-Barricades Defensive Strategy.
I searched my digital copy for the string "Hand-" and it was not present. (Note my version is Edition 16 and I only have sections 5 to 10, and 13.)
I am open to being convinced my interpretation of what they recommend is incorrect, but this thread has convinced me to modify my style guide for my WIP to specify those are the choices I would make.

Zom

@Ross at Play

a simple approach is practical for all entities that require 'headline case'

I suppose we should be grateful that nobody is proposing capitals for each part of a compound word when it begins a sentence.

'Low-Flying aircraft make much noise' perhaps?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
helmut_meukel
Updated:

@Ross at Play

Sorry, was called away while writing this. In the meantime SB already stated the same.
Please ignore the following.



[Quoting someone else] The Chicago Manual of Style takes a more complex approach to capitalizing hyphenated words. It agrees with Gregg that adverbs should be capitalized. Yet it recommends Run-in and Take-off because in and off are short and unstressed. It suggests Hand-me-downs for the same reason. Beyond that, Chicago does not capitalize the second part of a spelled-out hyphenated number (Twenty-first and Two-thirds). I like its approach in a final rule: "Break a rule when it doesn't work." Well done, Chicago.[End of quoted quote]

I cannot find anything in CMOS to support what the statements you quoted claim is recommended by CMOS.

Based on what it says at 8.159, within any title I would capitalise all of these: Run-In, Take-Off, Hand-Me-Downs, Twenty-First, and Two-Thirds.


Ross, you obviously missed the gist of part of your own quote from 8.159 in your other post.

Here is the relevant paragraph (emphasis by me):


4. Capitalize the second element in a hyphenated spelled-out number (twenty-one or twenty-first, etc.) or hyphenated simple fraction (two-thirds in two-thirds majority). This departure from previous Chicago recommendations recognizes the functional equality of the numbers before and after the hyphen.


Obviously the blogger used an older version of CMOS.

HM.

Ross at Play

@helmut_meukel

Ross, you obviously missed the gist of part of your own quote

I didn't miss it. SB suggested that too above, and I responded with an explanation beginning:

I noticed that. The change in practice mentioned by CMOS applies only to numbers. I think the piece you quoted misrepresents what CMOS says in other ways as well.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel

@Ross at Play

Obviously my editing of my posting came too late, you were already answering. :(

HM.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@helmut_meukel

Stuff happens. No biggie.

Actually, it's a comfort to know people read what I post and will "keep me honest" if they see an apparent problem. :-)

Crumbly Writer

@Zom

I suppose we should be grateful that nobody is proposing capitals for each part of a compound word when it begins a sentence.

No one is suggesting the normal rules of capitalization, only the rules of capitalization in Title Case, so what Ross, Switch and I are discussion only relates to chapter or story titles, and generally, you don't include many multi-word adjectives in the few chapter titles you may have in a single story.

Replies:   Zom
Crumbly Writer

@helmut_meukel

Obviously the blogger used an older version of CMOS.

Not unusual, since CMOS doesn't distribute it's guides for free, but instead charges for each copy. Thus, once someone invests in it to determine how to format their document, they're unlikely to subscribe to all future changes.

richardshagrin
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


Capital Case


"www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-capital-case.htm

Nov 26, 2017 · A capital case is a legal case in which a defendant can potentially be punished by execution."

Why the dash or hyphen in Homeport?

"Naval Station Everett - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Station_Everett

Naval Station Everett; Everett, Washington: ... Naval Station Everett ... was designed as a homeport for a US Navy carrier strike group and opened in 1994."

If you treat Homeport as a single word, all the angst and aggravation goes away. Of course if you can't live without it, you can always ask is HomePort required?

awnlee jawking

@richardshagrin

Just don't write a story about Homeport Homeport and a 13yo girl ;)

AJ

Replies:   BlacKnight
BlacKnight

@awnlee jawking

Ah, Homeport Homeport, where the good ship Lolita is Moored.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Why the dash or hyphen in Homeport?

Now that you bring it up, there really isn't an issue with using "homeport". I was so concerned with Homeworld vs Home world from a previous discussion (where one is where one's birthworld is, vs. where the homeworld of an entire galactic empire is), that I just extracted it to homeport too. :(

Still, seeing it written, "Homeworld" just doesn't look as pretty as "Home-Port". Oh well, I guess it's better going with the real word than pretending it's not an actual world yet.

Still, it resolved the issue about how to resolve hyphenated multiple-word adjectives in fatal capital cases, just in case it ever comes up again.

"I'm sorry, sir, but you're under arrest for a fatal hyphenated adjective. The addition of the extra hyphen is what ultimately killed him.

REP
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


What i was taught is that when you take two words and hyphenated them to make a compound word it's now a single word,


Interesting, EB.

What I was taught is that you can join two words with a hyphen to create a compound word, which is treated as if it were a single word. However, a compound word is not a single word. It may become a single word if its usage becomes popular and at that time the hyphen would be dropped and the two words joined.

For titles and other uses where the initial letter of multiple words are capitalized, I have capitalized both words, so to me Home-Port would be the proper approach.

ETA: When it comes to style guides, I prefer the US Government Printing Office Style Manual.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GPO-STYLEMANUAL-2008/pdf/GPO-STYLEMANUAL-2008.pdf

Its rule 3.49 states:

set in caps and small caps or caps and lowercase, capitalize all principal words, including parts of compounds which would Capitalization Rules 41 be capitalized standing alone. The articles a, an, and the; the prepositions at, by, for, in, of, on, to, and up; the conjunctions and, as, but, if, or, and nor; and the second element of a compound numeral are not capitalized.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@REP

What I was taught is that you can join two words with a hyphen to create a compound word, which is treated as if it were a single word. However, a compound word is not a single word. It may become a single word if its usage becomes popular and at that time the hyphen would be dropped and the two words joined.


What I was taught in high school back in the 1960s is the same I was taught in the late 1990s when doing a tech writing course at it was when you make a compound word by hyphenating it you capitalise it and treat it as a single word, due to the hyphen. They also mentioned some compound words later morphed through heavy usage to be a single word without the hyphen. Maybe it's a difference between what the UK and the US system teach, I don't know. Mind you, since the hybrid International English started merging the two anything could be the case now.

We never used CMoS here in Australia, and the AP wasn't always adhered to by the print media, although some did.

Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

What I was taught in high school back in the 1960s is the same I was taught in the late 1990s when doing a tech writing course


It's strictly style. There's no right or wrong way. It's only wrong if you follow a style guide and don't abide by it.

The 3 style guides I referenced all capitalized the word after the hyphen. Another style guide might not. In fact, it seems an older version of the CMOS did it differently than the current one recommends.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Switch Blayde

Style Guides are like opinions. Look around long enough and you will find one that agrees with you.

Ross at Play

@Ernest Bywater

when you make a compound word by hyphenating it you capitalise it and treat it as a single word, due to the hyphen. They also mentioned some compound words later morphed through heavy usage to be a single word without the hyphen.

There are two distinctly different situations. I will use my invented expressions, "permanent" and "temporary" hyphenations.

A permanent hyphenation is one that dictionaries list with a hyphen. You use a hyphen for them in all situations, if you're following the spellings of a dictionary. I always treat those as a single word.
I include in that category anything that connecting a prefix - actually, anything which cannot exist as a word on its own - to something else.
However, "permanent" hyphenations often do not last long in everyday usage. For example, I expect about a hundred years ago some dictionaries listed a noun 'make up', meaning cosmetics. At that point, I would have treated that as two words. Later on, the same dictionaries would have listed 'make-up', and nowadays they list 'makeup'. I would have treated both of those as single words.

The example CW asked about, 'home-port issues', is one which I consider a temporary hyphenation. The hyphen is only required because the expression is being used as a compound adjective before a noun. I consider that as two words, and dictionary.com does too! If you enter either 'homeport' or 'home-port' into its site, it returns its definition of 'home port'.

EB, having made that point, I would NOT go the further step and say the capitalisation of one- and multi-word hyphenated expressions should necessarily be different. My style is to treat them differently. I wouldn't assert it is invalid for others to treat the both in the same way. However, I am convinced careful writers should recognise they are different, and make two style choices for how to capitalise them.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Zom
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


what Ross, Switch and I are discussion only relates to chapter or story titles


Really? Clearly then, I am not a part of the discussion, because I wasn't.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Zom

Really? Clearly then, I am not a part of the discussion, because I wasn't.

I was simply clarifying what the three of us were arguing (since you seemed to think it applied to normal use, rather than the capital-case or title-case uses), so I'm unclear what your point is. Yes, you didn't agree with us, but then I never claimed that you did.

P.S. the "are discussion" was a type and should read "Ross, Switch and I are discussing only relates to chapter or story titles".

Replies:   Zom
Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

I expect about a hundred years ago some dictionaries listed a noun 'make up',


I doubt that. Only because I don't see how a verb could be used as a noun.

I would guess people said, "I'm going to make up my face because I'm going out."

"What are you putting on?"

"Lipstick, rouge, eye liner."

"Oh, that's a lot of make-up."

It would make no sense to say, "Oh, that's a lot of make up."

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

@ Me
I expect about a hundred years ago some dictionaries listed a noun 'make up',

@You
I doubt that. Only because I don't see how a verb could be used as a noun.
I would guess people said, "I'm going to make up my face because I'm going out."

Whether or not dictionaries listed it, there was a time when the noun would have been written as 'make up'.
dictionary.com states:

First recorded in 1805-15; noun use of verb phrase make up


The common use of 'make-up', and later 'makeup', did not kick in until the 20th century, according to this ngram.

So, I expect about a hundred years ago people would have written, "I'm going to put make up my face."

I do not want to argue about this example. I was trying to find something that had transitioned recently from two words, to a hyphenated form, and then to a single word. It probably confuses things that 'make up' started out as a phrasal verb. I could not think of something that started out as two nouns forming a noun phrase and then went through that transition.

Zom

@Crumbly Writer

since you seemed to think it applied to normal use

It looks like I need to sharpen my sarcasm skills.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Zom

It looks like I need to sharpen my sarcasm skills.

Most of sarcasm lies in the delivery. It's the MOST difficult type of humor to pull off, since it often comes off as sincere, rather than satirical. The general rule of thumb, unless you've got a history of telling successful satirical jokes (i.e. people who aren't your close friends and family get the jokes), then it's not worth trying to be satirical online or in print.

Everyone likes to think they're smarter than the average bear, unfortunately, evidence doesn't bear that out. Ross keeps trying, and has more experience at it, yet he too keeps failing at it here. And like everyone who fails to understand (how to tell) satirical humor, they blame the victims (the listener), rather than themselves for not knowing how to carry it off.

Replies:   Ross at Play  Zom
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

evidence doesn't bear that out. Ross keeps trying, and has more experience at it, yet he too keeps failing at it here.

The evidence doesn't bear that out.
Failing to amuse some people with my attempts to make a joke ... that's going to happen all the time.
Consistently having someone fail to notice I have attempted to make a joke ... that's mostly you.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

The evidence doesn't bear that out.
Failing to amuse some people with my attempts to make a joke ... that's going to happen all the time.
Consistently having someone fail to notice I have attempted to make a joke ... that's mostly you.

It all depends on the numbers. If the majority of your readers don't get your jokes, it's more a reflection on your ability to tell jokes. Rather than attacking those you're unable to reach, you should probably change your styles of joke telling. But then, you've publicly stated that you don't want most of your readers to know when you're poking fun at them, so I really don't understand what you're objecting to here, other than once again, blaming you readers for failing to 'get' your inside jokes. :(

My main point was: if you're not confident in your ability to tell satirical jokes, the best advise is to not attempt it, since it's so difficult to execute well!

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

you've publicly stated that you don't want most of your readers to know when you're poking fun at them

That's not what I said. I've said I know that some will not notice that some of my better efforts contain a joke.
Sure, some of my efforts fall flat. If you're not failing sometimes, you're not trying hard enough.

It all depends on the numbers. If the majority of your readers don't get your jokes ...

I do not trust your opinion on what the "majority" thinks. You respond to too many posts here intended to be jokes as if they had been intended literally.

Zom

@Crumbly Writer

It's the MOST difficult type of humor to pull off

Especially when people don't read what is actually there. I keep forgetting to dumb stuff down.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Zom

I keep forgetting to dumb stuff down.

Please don't!
I'd prefer occasional gems in amongst abject failures than the Three Stooges.

Replies:   Zom
Zom

@Ross at Play

Please don't!

Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

@Zom

Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

I understand the last sentence. LLAP.

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