Forum: Author Hangout

That would be a trade paperback.

Tis still considered a paperback—especially for those of us who can't afford a print run large enough to justify quad- or sixteenth-folded sheets of paper. When I offer a 'paperback', that's the only option I have available (unless I want to pay double the rate just because the smaller size adds to the page-rate total).

True, but using Trade Paperback and Mass-market paperback will avoid confusion.

Most printers use the term US Trade for the 6 x 9 inch books and Pocket for the 4.25 x 6.87 inch books despite both being commonly provided in what the call Perfect Bound which is a paper or light cardboard cover they can be provided with different binding and cover styles - depending on what the printer can do and what the publisher wants it to be. Paperback is used to refer to the cover style and not a book size, despite what a lot of people think.

I'm not sure what the locations correspond to,

When I was browsing the various forums on the subject, someone mentioned "locations" were a great advancement for non-fiction. The example was the ability to jump to charts or other important things in the book and return to where you were reading.

For ebooks that are also available as dead tree editions, Amazon.de simply uses the page count of the printed edition!

Generally, when you list a book (say for an html page listing multiple formats of the same book), you ONLY specify the page count of the print version! On my webpages, I list the page count and word count for comparison sakes (that when you compare things by how many bottles of sake it requires you to consume) (ex: "287 pages (print)/97,000 words").

The thread is talking about the page count that is included in the Amazon book listing as part of the product description.

When you submit a file to Kindle, it offers to display the document using a variety of formats. In each case, it numbers them consecutively, rather than based on 'assumed compressed storage size'.

Of course, results vary with each (human) reader!

How do you determine page count and file size for the different formats?

For an ebook, you don't.

It's difficult, if not impossible, because often the difference is made up of the 'unprintables' (formatting, 2 or 4 character font characters, internal commands, multiple style definitions for the exact same styles (something that Calibre dumps into ebooks constantly). Thus there's no way to go from a stories 'total word count' to a total ebook file size.

But, the general rule of thumb, is the average number of characters to a word is five letters (when you average the typical word with the abundance of "a", "I", "be", "am" and "me" usages). Of course, that assumes that every author is writing for a fifth-grade audience (the standard mantra for most traditional publishers).

In essence, it's all a bit pile of smoke publishers expect authors to wrestle with, and a hardy way for the publishers to low-ball author's in payment negotiations!

Not on my Sony PRS-T1. The Sony ebook reader shows always the same total page count for a given book regardless of the font settings.

then it's using some false and arbitrary setting, because a change of font type and size will always alter the amount of screen used, and since an e-book screen is supposed to be the e-book equivalent of a page it should change. Any arbitrary system won't give an accurate figure, which is why word counts are better.

If it says 200 pages, then I should only need 200 screens at the font size and setting giving that number, should the size change the number of words displayed will vary, and thus there would be more screens (i.e.e pages) to view.

The "Acknowledgements" section starts with '9.0 / 697', the next ebook page shows '10.4 / 697', followed by '11.0 / 697' (End of "Acknowledgements").

If a reader or reader program recalculates the page count as you expect it to do, it would also have to actualize the page values in its internal list of Notes, Text Memos, ... Could be tricky.

That's also why NO ebook lists page numbers in it's TOC, or on the text in the pages themselves.

That's also why NO ebook lists page numbers in it's TOC, or on the text in the pages themselves.

No, it's because there's no such thing as a page in an eBook. Same as a webpage where it's one big page that you scroll down.

The Sony ebook reader shows always the same total page count for a given book regardless of the font settings.

My ignorance of ebooks is going to show, but maybe the e-reader calculates the number of pages based on the default settings (e.g., font size). So if you change the font size to read an ebook, the e-reader doesn't bother to recalculate the number of pages. However, if you were to change the default, maybe it would.

page numbering makes sens in a pint book,

I always like being able to turn to a specific page when I'm enjoying a pint of my favorite novel!

which is why I list story word counts with my books on Lulu. That gives people a real idea of the story size.

It also provides a meaningful way to compare the size of different books, since each printer/device/reader each calculates number of pages differently. That way, "half the size of 'War & Peace'" means something.

I am a university student and I have no way to cite these texts

Part of the footnote is the page number. But there is none with an ebook.

In that case, I'd quit listing actual page numbers and switch to chapters (though, realistically, most university students purchase the cheaper and easier to carry ebook versions of printed volumes, so they could simply check their school library for the actual page numbers).

Why should they bother listing a page count at all?

They're NOT listing page counts, they're listing the page the reference appears on in the book. Thus there's nothing to reference in the scholarly paper.

It looks like there really isn't any reason for an e-book only self publisher to worry about page counts for publishing on Amazon.

For an unknown author, price is typically dependent on size.

I bet most buyers can't compare a word count of an ebook to a page count of a dead tree book.

NO ONE CAN. That's why every device/publisher lists completely different page counts for the same book on the same devices. An ebook file with the exact same number of words can be MUCH larger on one ebook than in another.

However, if I see a 15,000 word novel, I'm not ABOUT to purchase it, while one marked at 500,000 words I also wouldn't purchase because I'd likely never read it (at least not before it's time to replace the device once again).

True, but as a buyer I judge that by word count, not page count.

Except Amazon doesn't give the word count. My "Last Kiss" novel is eBook only. Amazon lists:

File Size: 692 KB
Print Length: 337 pages

It's around 84,000 words, but Amazon doesn't specify that.

1. What pen name is that under?

Elliot Scharfman

1. What pen name is that under?
2. I checked a couple of other e-books on Amazon.com. They used to list word count under the product details, but back then they didn't estimate a page length. They must have dropped the word count when they started estimating page lengths.

I suspect they only do that when the book is available as BOTH an ebook AND a print book. Most of my books list both (page and word counts). (Or at least they did the last time I bothered to check!)

It looks like there really isn't any reason for an e-book only self publisher to worry about page counts for publishing on Amazon.

For many who post exclusively to Kindle Select, page counts mean nothing at all (since many authors promote single 'books' chopped up into 10,000 word books so they get 'paid' for multiple book reads). However, for larger books (especially sci-fi), readers want to know just how LARGE the book is, so word count is the ONLY measure for how long it'll take to read a book.

For many who post exclusively to Kindle Select, page counts mean nothing at all (since many authors promote single 'books' chopped up into 10,000 word books so they get 'paid' for multiple book reads).

That's not true anymore. KU pays pages read. It doesn't matter how long the book is.

That's not true anymore. KU pays pages read. It doesn't matter how long the book is.

It's not completely true anymore. Although they take page-counts into account, they still favor multiple short books over single longer stories. It's better, not yet completely fixed.

The Kindle screen size is about the same size as a pocket book / mass market paperback.

I guess they mean the Pocket as against the US Trade as all mt books are in the US Trade 6 x 9 yet when you compare mine to the Amazon ones you have 91 pages grows to 109 - for the difference between the US Trade and Pocket that seems reasonable, then you have 36 pages drops to 33 pages when it should be growing, and the last one is the same. There's an inconsistency there.

However, I still think using the word count is a much better measurement because a word count gives a more exact comparison between works other than photo books.

My guess would be that you used a larger font size or some other formatting option that the Kindle doesn't support in the print versions of the latter two books.

For many years I've written all my books in a preset format of 6 x 9 inch with set margins and 10 pt Palatino Linotype - everything is the same, except for the book format. All these books have been done the same way in that same format - so there is no variation on my end, it's all come in at their end. Anyway, it's some arbitrary setting they use, so it should give a consistency between e-books, but it seems to have an inconsistent variance.

All these books have been done the same way in that same format - so there is no variation on my end, it's all come in at their end. Anyway, it's some arbitrary setting they use, so it should give a consistency between e-books, but it seems to have an inconsistent variance.

That's why authors prefer using page count to explain a story size, whereas sellers use 'page count' as a marketing effort. It's NOT based on reality, and only gives a vague sense of how large a story actually is. Word count give an absolute comparison, regardless of formatting!

I still think using the word count is a much better measurement

Which is why when you query a publisher or agent, the first thing you tell them is the genre and word count. Not how many pages your Word doc is.

But other than authors or people in the publishing business, how many people know that n-number of words = n-number of pages? When they look at a book in a bookstore or airport, they might fan to the end to see how many pages.

My wife reads her Amazon purchased books on her iPad. I read the Kindle keeps track of your reading speed, but it works the same on her iPad. It tells her how much longer it will take to finish the book. She mentioned that when it said one minute she thought there was probably one page left, but it turned out to be more like 5. It just happens she's a very fast reader. But she automatically converted it to pages.

Readers know pages.

how many people know that n-number of words = n-number of pages?

When I was doing tertiary studies, about 20 years ago, all the assignments were given out as xxxx words (not counting bibliography) of 12 point Times New Roman with 1.5 inch margins in double spacing on A4 which should yyyy pages - the staff had a good handle on how many words to a page, and most of the students did too, after their 1st or 2nd assignment was written. I would expect a similar basic knowledge from most people who've done such assignments.

On that note: I know of one prof who took a student's thesis, picked up the draft, felt the weight, and handed it back while saying, "Better go back through this, it doesn't feel heavy enough to meet the word count." - his student was stunned, but the prof had been handling those things for many years, so he likely had a good idea of the pages, and thus words from the weight.

typo edit

most of the students did too

I was talking about readers, not students. Students are often given an English assignment of, "Write 5,000 words on..." or "5 typed double spaced pages."

But if someone was talking about the new Stephen King book they read, someone might ask how long it was. The answer would be, "I don't know, maybe 400 pages," not, "I don't know, maybe 90,000 words."

But if someone was talking about the new Stephen King book they read, someone might ask how long it was. The answer would be, "I don't know, maybe 400 pages," not, "I don't know, maybe 90,000 words."

We must move in totally different groups of people, because I've never heard anyone answer a question about a book in page numbers. The answer is usually along the lines of a typical novel or a long novel or one of his typical sagas. I've also heard some described as short or extra long.

When I want to get an idea of how long a dead tree novel is before I start reading it, I look at the number of pages. I have no idea how to ascertain the word count of a dead tree novel.

AJ

When I want to get an idea of how long a dead tree novel is before I start reading it, I look at the number of pages. I have no idea how to ascertain the word count of a dead tree novel.

It's called "Google"! (ex: "Dr. Zhivago word count").

I was talking about readers, not students.

I was simply saying most people do have an idea of how long a read is by a word count is from the experiences with assignments.

I was simply saying most people do have an idea of how long a read is by a word count is from the experiences with assignments.

Readers think in terms of page count (hence the marketing efforts to create largely imaginary counts), though when they do comparisons (say when comparing a romance with a science fiction story) they typically relate to 'typical word count' (i.e. they have an innate feel for both, though they tend to think in terms of pages, all other things being equal).

Readers think in terms of page count

I've been an avid reader for decades, and spoken with many other avid readers in that time, and not once have I come across a person who talks about a book by the number of pages in it.

I was simply saying most people do have an idea of how long a read is by a word count is from the experiences with assignments.

Readers think in terms of page count (hence the marketing efforts to create largely imaginary counts), though when they do comparisons (say when comparing a romance with a science fiction story) they typically relate to 'typical word count' (i.e. they have an innate feel for both, though they tend to think in terms of pages, all other things being equal).

Newspaper and Magazine writers have been and still are paid by the word.

I've written articles for books and websites in RL. Got paid a set fee, but was told the range of word size they expected.

Have you ever written a paid article for a print newspaper or print magazine?

Printed book, yes. Long time ago did handful of sports articles for printed newspapers. Paid by the piece.

Now everything is digital. Even the annual printed book I've done a couple of pieces for is going all digital.

because the authors used to get paid by the word.

I read that it's a myth that Charles Dickens was paid by the word. His stuff was published in magazines in pieces and he got paid for each piece (installment). Stephen King's "The Green Mile" was written that way to mirror Dickens. I have the novel, but it was originally published as 6 separate parts, each a story but all making up the overall story (which is what the novel is).

I think some authors were paid by the word, but for magazines.

I think some authors were paid by the word, but for magazines.

Anais Nin was paid by the page, but only because that was the only way she could survive as an author, writing pornography for personal collectors throughout Europe who paid her for each page she produced. :(

Those personal copies must be worth a FORTUNE now!

I read that it's a myth that Charles Dickens was paid by the word.

I don't know about Dickens, but I do know most of the scifi writers of the 1920s and 1930s got paid the going industry rates for their stories and were paid by the word for what they sold to magazines and to book publishers, the only difference being the book publishers paid less by the word up front, but also paid royalties. Well, that's what several of them said when writing about their early days of writing.