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Sentence trouble

Switch Blayde

I'm having trouble with a sentence. Specifically, using the word "molded." I'm trying to convey that, although she's wearing a top, the shape of her breasts are shown. One option is "clung to" instead of "molded" but I like the concept of a mold. Comments, please.

Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a tight, red top that molded her braless breasts, not only showing their shape, but even the nipples.

robberhands
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Officer Cherry Mulligan walked toward him wearing a tight, red top not only a mold of her braless breasts, but even the nipples.

ETA: The problem is that the verb 'to mold' means to form or shape, but that's not what's happening. The tight red top doesn't form her breasts, it's the other way around, her breasts are molding the top. So you have to use the noun to convey the correct immage. Her tight top is a mold of her breasts.

Dominions Son
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

I'd go with something more like:


Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a tight, red top that was molded to her breasts. She was obviously not wearing a bra as you could clearly see the bumps her nipples made in the top.


A good bit wordier, but less isn't always better.

ETA: A good part of the problem with your original, is that molded in this context is verb, not a noun.

Replies:   robberhands
Ernest Bywater

@Switch Blayde

The only thing I'd do different, is if I wanted to accentuate the tight fits I'd write it as:

Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a tight, red top that molded her braless breasts like an extra skin, not only showing their shape, but even the nipples.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
robberhands

@Dominions Son

A good bit wordier, but less isn't always better.

It's not only a question of better or worse but also of style. If 'wordier' isn't Switch's usual style, a wordy sentence stands out like a sore thumb.

Joe Long

Officer Cherry Mulligan walked toward him wearing a tight red top molded to her braless breasts, which showed not only their shape, but her nipples too.


This is better. Mold as a noun is a container, so it sounds better to my ears that the top was molded to her breasts, not that it molded her breasts.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play
Updated:

I think the problem in your original is the verb 'showing' has become disconnected from its subject, 'that', which refers back to the top. I would be explicit so it was clear the top was doing the showing.

I would go with:

Officer Cherry Mulligan walked toward him wearing a tight red top which molded her braless breasts and showed not only their shape, but even her nipples.

Ross at Play

@Joe Long

This is better. Mold as a noun is a container, so it sounds better to my ears that the top was molded to her breasts, not that it molded her breasts.

I thought the thing that "made" this sentence was the good choice of 'mold' as an interesting, active verb.

robberhands

@Ross at Play

...a tight red top that molded her braless breasts...

That means the top is doing the molding, and that's not the right picture. I'm not even happy with DS':

...a tight, red top that was molded to her breasts.

To mold means to give form to something, not to adapt a form. It changes the meaning of the verb from something creatively active to passively accepting. But of course it's your language, so I better shut up.

Joe Long

@robberhands

But of course it's your language, so I better shut up.


I think it comes down to what we're used to hearing other people say.

Replies:   robberhands
awnlee_jawking

@robberhands

...a tight, red top that was molded to her breasts.


To mold means to give form to something, not to adapt a form. It changes the meaning of the verb from something creatively active to passively accepting.


I like this option. The verb also covers the action of creating a mold, so IMO 'molded to' works well.

AJ

robberhands
Updated:

@Joe Long

I think it comes down to what we're used to hearing other people say.

Of course, but usually the misuse of words causes an uproar in this forum, so I'm wondering what the difference is this time.

robberhands

@awnlee_jawking

The verb also covers the action of creating a mold, so IMO 'molded to' works well.

Nope, and that's exactly the difference. It would cover 'molded into' because that's active, whereas 'molded to' is passive.

Ross at Play

The image the original sentence gave me was a top which was not merely tight enough to conform to the natural shape of the breasts, but one so tight it was molding the breasts to fit its cut and shape.
That's why I liked 'mold' as an active verb.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands
Updated:

@Ross at Play

In that case we simply have a different visualisation of the scene. Probably because I fancy breasts which wouldn't bend out of shape that easily.

ETA: Honestly, in a contest between a top and a pair of breasts, which one do you want to do the molding?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Honestly, in a contest between a top and a pair of breasts, which one do you want to do the molding?


My hands! :)

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
robberhands
Updated:

I just remembered a sentence from my own story. It underlines the difference between thoughtless writing and a theoretical discussion. At least in my sorrowful existence it obviously does.

...as was the diaphanous dark blue chemise now smoothly molding her figure.

Replies:   Ross at Play
REP

@Switch Blayde

I'm having trouble with a sentence. ... Comments, please.


By definition, a mold is a hollow container used to give shape to a liquid that is poured into the container. However, what you want is the reverse – a thin covering of pliable cloth taking the shape of semi-solid flesh. So with minimal change to your original, I would suggest:

Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a tight, red top that was molded to her braless breasts, not only showing their shape, but even the nipples.

richardshagrin

Just to be negative, I see "mold" and I think of the fungus that grows on old food and organic material.

Replies:   Joe Long
Ross at Play
Updated:

@robberhands

...as was the diaphanous dark blue chemise now smoothly molding her figure.

Sorry. If you stick it up here ... we will tear it down.

I despise the word 'diaphanous'. It has the exact meaning you want but it seems like a word you might find in the science and technology pages of a weekend newspaper, but not the fashion lift-out. Try flimsy, or translucent. I'd probably use gossamer.

It's also too obscure a word. I enjoy writing with words I don't really know - but I've heard them before and have some sense of their meaning. This seems like a word few readers will have ever heard. CW has expressed that idea here by saying, "$10 words are okay, just avoid the $100 words."

And 'molding' is the reverse of what you want. It needs to be 'molded by/to' for the cloth to follow the shape of the figure.

robberhands
Updated:

@Ross at Play


Sorry. If you stick it up here ... we will tear it down.

No, not 'we', that's solely you. I didn't put it up here for general criticism but for the 'mold' context.

And 'molding' is the reverse of what you want. It needs to be 'molded by/to' for the cloth to follow the shape of the figure.

Exactly, I quoted my own mistake, and if you would have read my comment you should have realized that.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Switch Blayde

@Ross at Play

I thought the thing that "made" this sentence was the good choice of 'mold' as an interesting, active verb.


That was my intention, but also my problem.

Thanks, everyone.

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

I despise the word 'diaphanous'.


It's an excellent word. Even uneducated people like yourself should be able to guess the meaning from the context ;)

AJ

Ross at Play

@robberhands

I quoted my own mistake, and if you would have read my comment you should have realized that.

Yes. I did think that likely, but I wasn't certain. So 'should have realized' is a fair criticism.

robberhands

@Ross at Play

Since Switch ended the discussion, I'll now respond to your critique.

I despise the word 'diaphanous'.

I guess that's the reason why you didn't write the sentence but I did.

It has the exact meaning you want[Full stop]

The word has the exact meaning I wanted. That's it, further 'buts' are of no interest to me. I don't need to try other words because I used the correct word. A 10$ or 100$ value doesn't change anything.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Switch Blayde
Updated:

Thanks again, everyone, molded just didn't work. This is what I came up with:


Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a stretchy, red top that encased her braless breasts in an extra layer of skin, leaving no doubt to their shape and size of the nipples.


I want the image of nude breasts that are covered, as if the top was painted on.

Ross,

This is one case where I changed "walked" to "was walking" (I usually go the other way). He looked up when he heard her heels clicking on the cement floor and saw her walking toward him. I wanted the image of her walking/moving/coming closer.

Edited: changed "like an extra layer" to "in an extra layer"

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

It's an excellent word. Even uneducated people like yourself should be able to guess the meaning from the context ;)

I disliked it because of its harsh sound, not because I could not guess its meaning closely enough.
I looked up the meaning and the Ox. Dict. described it as 'formal'. I did not notice the "(of cloth)" in the definition on the next line.
The examples in dictionary.com show it is used by the fashion industry, but they also rank its difficulty as "Few English speakers likely know this word".

Ross at Play

@Switch Blayde

This is one case where I changed "walked" to "was walking" (I usually go the other way). He looked up when he heard her heels clicking on the cement floor and saw her walking toward him. I wanted the image of her walking/moving/coming closer.

I understand that. Following other '-ing' verbs, another one is usually best. :-)

robberhands

@Switch Blayde

I want the image of nude breasts that are covered, as if the top was painted on.

If that's what you want, than your choosen phrase,'an extra layer of skin', sounds contradicting the 'naked' picture. The last part 'leaving no doubt to their shape and size of the nipples' is unclear. I think,'leaving no doubt to their shape and the size of her nipples', would be better.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@robberhands

The word has the exact meaning I wanted. That's it, further 'buts' are of no interest to me. I don't need to try other words because I used the correct word. A 10$ or 100$ value doesn't change anything.

There is a range of styles that suit different authors and different readers.
There are some who rarely use a word an average teenager would not know. I hate that style, but if you're looking for the greater possible readership it probably the best thing to do.
I try to avoid going to extremes with anything. So while I am near the other end of that scale I try to avoid words that few readers will know. I am quite happy looking up words in the dictionary while reading, but I would not want to force those reading my writing to do so too often.

Ross at Play

@robberhands

I think,'leaving no doubt to their shape and the size of her nipples', would be better.

I agree with that, and suggested it earlier too.
In general, you should prefer the most specific determiner available, and here 'her' is more specific than 'the'.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

The only thing I'd do different, is if I wanted to accentuate the tight fits I'd write it as:

Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a tight, red top that molded her braless breasts like an extra skin, not only showing their shape, but even the nipples.

Taking this a step further:

Officer Cherry Mulligan walked towards him wearing a tight, red top which fit her like a second skin, revealing not just her braless breasts, but her nipples, in all their glory.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

To mold means to give form to something, not to adapt a form. It changes the meaning of the verb from something creatively active to passively accepting.

You could always try "which was painted over her breasts ..."

The idea of a dress appearing 'painted' over her flesh gives a better feel for the situation, rather than something external molded on top of her flesh somehow 'revealing' the flesh underneath. That fails the 'common sense' test.

Replies:   robberhands
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee_jawking

I like this option. The verb also covers the action of creating a mold, so IMO 'molded to' works well.

Instead of thinking of verb and object, think of it in terms of analogy. Which analogy gives the readers the best image of what's happening, one of something molded over her breasts, making them appear larger, or something which appears to be barely covering the nakedness underneath it.

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

My hands! :)

Ha-ha.

Officer Cherry Mulligan walked towards him wearing a tight, red top which barely hinted at clothing, revealing not just her braless breasts, but even the nipples seeking to break free.

Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

I despise the word 'diaphanous'.

It's an excellent word. Even uneducated people like yourself should be able to guess the meaning from the context ;)

While I wouldn't be quite as dismissive as Ross, I agree that the word doesn't add much to the context—mainly because it doesn't sound like what it does. Instead, diaphanous sounds like some dark and mysterious spy stuff, which will only lead your readers off in directions you never intended them to go.

Replies:   robberhands  JohnBobMead
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a stretchy, red top that covered nothing but showcased the shape of her breasts and the size of her nipples.

There is a million ways to write a particular passage. As an author you just have to choose what you like the best.

robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

Instead, diaphanous sounds like some dark and mysterious spy stuff, which will only lead your readers off in directions you never intended them to go.

Definitions of diaphanous
adjective
(especially of fabric) light, delicate, and translucent.

What's mysterious about that? The meaning couldn't be any clearer and it's exactly the correct word choice in the given context.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

The purpose wasn't to see or imagine her breasts. She's a Vice undercover cop who was captured. He found her nude, bound to a bed. He just freed her, but her being nude was an awkward moment for them. So after he freed her, he left to allow her to dress. This is what happened when she came out:

The sound of high heels clicking on the cement floor made Steele look up. His jaw dropped again.

Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a stretchy, red top that encased her braless breasts in an extra layer of skin, leaving no doubt to their shape and the size of her nipples. It stopped short of the black miniskirt to expose her midriff and bellybutton. The skirt was so short it barely covered her buttocks, and the black pumps had five inch heels.

"You can close your mouth now," Cherry said with a blush.

Steele snapped his mouth shut.

"I was at work when they knocked me out," she said. "This is how I dressed for work."

"I didn't say anything."

"Your eyes did. I saw that same look from the customers at the bar."

"I bet they tipped you well."

"Very funny."

Replies:   robberhands  REP
robberhands
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Well, that surely is a rather unique scenario, but it actually doesn't change the picture you wanted to paint with the sentence we discussed. So I stay by my comments.

doctor_wing_nut

Usually, simple is better. If 'molded' was changed to 'molded to', I think that's the best solution.

But, since you asked in the forum, you now have a bevy of opinions to work with, most of which needlessly complicate the issue.

If you came in here and asked what time it was, you would get two dozen posts on how to build a watch, or a sundial, or an atomic clock.

You might even find out what time it was, kinda by accident.

robberhands

@doctor_wing_nut

Usually, simple is better. If 'molded' was changed to 'molded to', I think that's the best solution.

That would be simple, but sadly it would be simply wrong. A tight top can no more mold to a pair of tits than it can 'form to' or 'shape to' them.

REP

@Switch Blayde

I like it. It is better than your original thought.

Joe Long

@richardshagrin

Just to be negative, I see "mold" and I think of the fungus that grows on old food and organic material.


AJ & the Aussies can spell it "mould"

Dominions Son

@doctor_wing_nut

If you came in here and asked what time it was, you would get two dozen posts on how to build a watch, or a sundial, or an atomic clock.


You forgot instructions on how to tell time by the position of the sun and a digression into a discussion about what time is. :)

Crumbly Writer

@doctor_wing_nut

If you came in here and asked what time it was, you would get two dozen posts on how to build a watch, or a sundial, or an atomic clock.

You might even find out what time it was, kinda by accident.

Typically, most people find their answers before most even find the discussion. At that point, anything added just confuses the point and only produces conflicted opinions.

awnlee jawking

@robberhands

We'll have to disagree on that. I believe it's fine in English English and in everyday use.

AJ

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

but they also rank its difficulty as "Few English speakers likely know this word"


With errors like that, I reckon dictionary.com should be avoided.

I looked up the meaning and the Ox. Dict. described it as 'formal'.


The word 'formal' was not found by a page search on the Oxford Dictionaries page.

Diaphanous is a mainstay of erotic literature. It is the 'go to' word for describing sheer, translucent, erotic clothing.

AJ

PotomacBob

@Switch Blayde

As a reader (not an author), I got the better understanding of the scene from the original written by Switch Blayde than any of the alternatives I saw. I'm more interested in story, character development and imagery than I am in having an author follow strict rules of grammar. I know the rules of grammar, but they sometimes get in the way.

Switch Blayde

@robberhands

A tight top can no more mold to a pair of tits than it can 'form to' or 'shape to' them.


It can definitely "form to" and "shape to." That was what I was going after with "mold to" (I originally had the "to" but by the time I asked here it had been removed).

Replies:   robberhands
Crumbly Writer

I think you're fine, Switch. I doubt many readers will actually debate the appropriateness of "molded" vs. "mold to". That's one instance where, assuming the meaning as you read plays in your favor, as most readers will already know what you're trying to convey before they even finish reading the sentence and fill in any blanks.

awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

as if the top was painted on


Or that erotic-writing favourite - 'sprayed on'.

AJ

Replies:   REP
robberhands

@Switch Blayde

It can definitely "form to" and "shape to." That was what I was going after with "mold to" (I originally had the "to" but by the time I asked here it had been removed).

It's not so much that I refuse how you use the verb 'to mold' within the given context. As I have quoted before, I did so myself. I simply wonder why the same people who vehemently argued about the approprietness of 'dived' or 'dove' as the past tense of 'to dive', are so easily willing to use a verb neglecting its definition.

From the Merrian-Webster Dictionary:
mold
verb
Definition of mold

transitive verb

1 : to knead or work (a material, such as dough or clay) into a desired consistency or shape

2 : to give shape to - the wind molds the waves

3 : to form in a mold - mold candles

4 : to determine or influence the quality or nature of - mold public opinion

5 : to fit the contours of - fitted skirts that mold the hips

6 : to ornament with molding or carving - molded picture frames

StarFleet Carl

@Switch Blayde

Ah, what the hell - let me try it, too.

Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking toward him wearing a tight, red top that molded her braless breasts, not only showing their shape, but even the nipples.


Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking towards him, wearing a tight, red top that took her braless breasts and molded them into perfection, not only showcasing their natural shape, but even revealing the shape of her nipples.

Thus, we're using the definition of it fitting the skin AND also enhancing the flesh, by allowing the top to reveal the nipples. Just my two cents worth.

Replies:   Joe Long  Switch Blayde
Ross at Play

@robberhands

I simply wonder why the same people who vehemently argued about the approprietness of 'dived' or 'dove' as the past tense of 'to dive', are so easily willing to use a verb neglecting its definition.

I assume you are including me among 'those people', and that is fair enough.
I have not been "neglecting" the "definition" of the 'mold'. It is less common, but equally valid, to say clothing is molding the shape of breasts than it is to say the clothing is molded by the shape of breasts. There was a famous ad which claimed their new bra "lifts and separates". Couldn't it be said that bra was molding its wearer's breasts into a more appealing shape?

My dislike of 'dove' instead of 'dived' is based on seeing no difference between their meanings in America. I have seen nothing that even suggests both are not equally valid, in all situations, for American English. There are regional differences in which tends to be preferred, and it does appear as if 'dove' is gaining in popularity and I would guess has overtaken 'dived' in recent decades.
In contrast, 'dove' sounds wrong to many who use British English, although I would agree it is universally understood.
My question to American authors who routinely prefer 'dove' is this: if two versions of a word are identical in AmE, why not choose the one that is preferred in BrE? Why irritate a proportion of your readers doing something that has no benefit?
I recognise a potential benefit from using 'dove' in some situations, for example, for a character from some region who would always use it.

I apply this reasoning the other way too - and far more frequently.
For example, I say 'spelt' much more often than 'spelled'. There are a few situations where I prefer 'spelled', some where I'd only ever use 'spelt', and some where either sounds acceptable. I would write 'spelled' in situations where I merely lean towards 'spelt' - simply to avoid causing needless irritation to some readers.
In both directions I favour the use of regular forms of verbs over irregular forms on the grounds that will 'Do No Harm!'

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

It is less common, but equally valid, to say clothing is molding the shape of breasts than it is to say the clothing is molded by the shape of breasts.

That wasn't what I meant. In both cases the verb is used correctly. What I meant is this: 'The dress molded to her breasts.'

Replies:   Ross at Play
Joe Long
Updated:

@StarFleet Carl


not only showcasing their natural shape, but even revealing the shape of her nipples.


Used 'shape' twice!

Officer Cherry Mulligan was walking towards him, wearing a tight, red top that molded her braless breasts into perfection, showcasing their natural shape as well as revealing her thumb-sized nipples.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
Switch Blayde

@robberhands

2 : to give shape to - the wind molds the waves


It's this one.

The shirt acquires the shape of the breast. So when you say, "the top molded to her breast," I envisioned it getting the shape of the breast.

But I don't use "molded to" anymore.

Switch Blayde

@StarFleet Carl

and molded them into perfection


I would interpret that as the top changing the shape of the breasts rather than highlighting the existing shape. I think that's the main problem with using "molded."

Ross at Play

@robberhands

I have no idea what you mean by:

What I meant is this: 'The dress molded to her breasts.'

The only time I've mentioned 'to' here was in a statement saying you needed the "reverse" of 'molding' (the active voice). The reverse is the passive voice. 'molded' plus some preposition. I wrote 'by/to' as possible prepositions. My first choice for your sentence would have been 'by', but in other cases, 'to' might be appropriate, such as if the sentence ended 'molded by the shape of her figure'.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

I consider the use of the verb in this sentence a mistake, but I never said it was you who wrote that - others did, though.

Replies:   Ross at Play
robberhands
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

So when you say, "the top molded to her breast," I envisioned it getting the shape of the breast.

I share your vision but your example is wrong.

'The wind molds the waves' and 'the top molded to her breast'. Simply look at the subjects in these sentences and you will realize it, too.

Ross at Play

@robberhands

Fair enough. I agree it is a mistake.

Switch Blayde

@robberhands

Simply look at the subjects in these sentences and you will realize it, too.


My ear told me it was wrong. That's why I asked. No matter how I reworded it, "molded" just didn't work. But it's fixed now due to the great minds in this forum.

awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Simply look at the subjects in these sentences and you will realize it, too.


No, a google search shows 'molded to' is in everyday English usage in this context.

If your dictionary says otherwise, then either it's wrong or it's referring to an unknown dialect.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

'molded to' is in everyday English usage in this context.

I would accept 'the top is/was molded to her breast'.
I would not accept 'the top molded to her breast'.

robberhands

@Ross at Play

I would accept 'the top is/was molded to her breast'.
I would not accept 'the top molded to her breast'.

Dito.

REP

@awnlee jawking


Or that erotic-writing favourite - 'sprayed on'.


Now you are getting into the Swarm stories. :)

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

How to make a penis mold.

Take one tumescent penis.
Take some plaster of paris.
Mold the plaster of paris to the penis.
Once molded to the penis, wait for the plaster of paris to set.
When the plaster of paris has set, detumesce and remove the penis.

In my opinion, the issue is not whether 'molded to' is right, but why it's right. That requires someone with more grammarian knowledge than me. Perhaps the past participle being used as an adjective?

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
JohnBobMead

@Crumbly Writer

I've obviously read far too many Regency romances, diaphanous is a word with some currency there. I'd say the decision to use it would depend upon your market; it's a period word that adds atmosphere to a Regency novel, in other genres it might not be recognized as rapidly. I gather it's not common these days outside of the fashion industry, or historical fiction; it might help establish atmosphere in a pseudo-medieval fantasy, as well. It _is_ your decision in the end, if you think the word encompasses the meaning better than your other options, use it.

Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

Do you agree that 'The top molded to her breasts' and 'The top molded itself to her breasts' mean exactly the same thing?
I cannot think of any circumstances where an author would describe a diaphanously-covered pair of tits walking towards someone, and in the next sentence an action performed by a piece of clothing.
So yes, theoretically possible but nonsense for the context SB was wanting, IMHO.

StarFleet Carl

@Joe Long

Used 'shape' twice!


Shape Shape!

Seriously, I only had 10 minutes because I had to go to work. I like to at least look at what you guys talk about before heading in for a 12 hour Saturday.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

But I don't use "molded to" anymore.

Somehow "molded to" sounds like someone built a fake penis (or tits) out of clay and stuck them to your anatomy (see the "Friends" episode where Joey applies for a role as a Jew and has to construct a fake penis out of luncheon meats), so I'd read the rest of the passage carefully, waiting for them to eventually fall off. 'D

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

You might be amused to know that I used the word 'diaphanous' in a forum elsewhere on Friday. The context was entomology rather that etymology and I deem it likely that all the participants understood the meaning ;)

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

You might be amused to know that I used the word 'diaphanous' in a forum elsewhere on Friday. The context was entomology rather that etymology and I deem it likely that all the participants understood the meaning

Those damn hussy bugs!

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

Those damn hussy bugs!


Flaunting their diaphanous wings!

NB this wasn't an attempt to restart an argument, just a humorous note about another context where diaphanous is routinely used.

AJ

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@awnlee jawking

this wasn't an attempt to restart an argument

That is alright then, because I wasn't planning on giving you one. :-)

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